Comments on: Changing the Mindset http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/05/changing-the-mindset/ Blog voices from Christians for Biblical Equality Tue, 6 Jan 2009 05:20:33 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: Kathryn Vance http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/05/changing-the-mindset/comment-page-1/#comment-3176 Kathryn Vance Sun, 02 Jul 2006 05:08:47 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=44#comment-3176 Changing "mom" to "parents" illustrates a Scriptural truth: words are full of power. The Bible tells us in Proverbs that "Death and life are in the power of the tongue", and Jesus spoke on the power of our words too. Images are also powerful. I see so many commercials that continue to perpetuate gender stereotypes even today. Mom is the cook and housekeeper; Dad mows the yard and earns the paycheck. As was stated in the introduction, cultural attitudes take years to form, and they take years to change. Changing “mom” to “parents” illustrates a Scriptural truth: words are full of power. The Bible tells us in Proverbs that “Death and life are in the power of the tongue”, and Jesus spoke on the power of our words too. Images are also powerful. I see so many commercials that continue to perpetuate gender stereotypes even today. Mom is the cook and housekeeper; Dad mows the yard and earns the paycheck. As was stated in the introduction, cultural attitudes take years to form, and they take years to change.

]]> By: Kathryn Vance http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/05/changing-the-mindset/comment-page-1/#comment-2357 Kathryn Vance Sat, 24 Jun 2006 01:27:24 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=44#comment-2357 Thank you Lori. Before she went to Heaven this year, my Mother finally was able to admit her dislike of the Southern Baptist view of submission (she called it "awful"), and her disagreement with their treatment of women. Submission was almost all she ever heard about marriage when she was a young woman. For her, this admission was extraordinary although she never completely embraced egalitarianism either. My Dad and I get along fine because we agree to disagree on this. We didn't specifically say that, but it's just the way it is. Thank you Lori. Before she went to Heaven this year, my Mother finally was able to admit her dislike of the Southern Baptist view of submission (she called it “awful”), and her disagreement with their treatment of women. Submission was almost all she ever heard about marriage when she was a young woman. For her, this admission was extraordinary although she never completely embraced egalitarianism either. My Dad and I get along fine because we agree to disagree on this. We didn’t specifically say that, but it’s just the way it is.

]]> By: Lori http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/05/changing-the-mindset/comment-page-1/#comment-2159 Lori Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:34:21 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=44#comment-2159 <blockquote><em>The reference to the “separate but equal” lie of Jim Crow segregation is a very apt one. As one who grew up at the end of segregation, whenever I hear that “this group is equal to that group, but…” I know that the group not in power (women, African Americans, etc) is going to get short shrift. Our complementarian brothers and sisters might do well to ponder this. Let Gospel freedom ring.</em> (Comment #16)</blockquote> I, too, was raised in the South. Although I was born after the civil rights movement, I still remember my father's pictures of his hometown before it started. Seeing a storefront window bearing a sign saying "N***** not allowed" is enough to turn your stomach. That's why I, too, see the struggle against the oppression of women in the same light as the civil rights movement. <i>My Dad was a wonderful father, but he was a Southern Baptist pastor with all that that implies</i> (Comment #17). My father, too, was a Southern Baptist minister. However, he changed over to the Methodists. Looking back now, I'm glad. I wonder if and my Mom would be so supportive of me today if they had remained with the Baptists, and that's a scary thought. Just out of curiosity, Katherine, how have your parents handled your change in philosophy?

The reference to the “separate but equal” lie of Jim Crow segregation is a very apt one. As one who grew up at the end of segregation, whenever I hear that “this group is equal to that group, but…” I know that the group not in power (women, African Americans, etc) is going to get short shrift. Our complementarian brothers and sisters might do well to ponder this. Let Gospel freedom ring. (Comment #16)

I, too, was raised in the South. Although I was born after the civil rights movement, I still remember my father’s pictures of his hometown before it started. Seeing a storefront window bearing a sign saying “N***** not allowed” is enough to turn your stomach. That’s why I, too, see the struggle against the oppression of women in the same light as the civil rights movement.

My Dad was a wonderful father, but he was a Southern Baptist pastor with all that that implies (Comment #17).

My father, too, was a Southern Baptist minister. However, he changed over to the Methodists. Looking back now, I’m glad. I wonder if and my Mom would be so supportive of me today if they had remained with the Baptists, and that’s a scary thought. Just out of curiosity, Katherine, how have your parents handled your change in philosophy?

]]> By: Kathryn Vance http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/05/changing-the-mindset/comment-page-1/#comment-1951 Kathryn Vance Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:45:00 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=44#comment-1951 Thank you Liz, and right on! Thank you Liz, and right on!

]]> By: Liz Sykes http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/05/changing-the-mindset/comment-page-1/#comment-1755 Liz Sykes Mon, 19 Jun 2006 10:10:25 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=44#comment-1755 Wonderful to hear your testimony Kathryn and a great encouragement that even in the most hierarchical situations, people can read/hear the truth of equality in Christ. I know there would have been a lot of pain from a-b but with the journey begun, there has been no turning back for you and hopefully many others. Wonderful to hear your testimony Kathryn and a great encouragement that even in the most hierarchical situations, people can read/hear the truth of equality in Christ. I know there would have been a lot of pain from a-b but with the journey begun, there has been no turning back for you and hopefully many others.

]]> By: Kathryn Vance http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/05/changing-the-mindset/comment-page-1/#comment-1732 Kathryn Vance Mon, 19 Jun 2006 04:53:45 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=44#comment-1732 I can relate to what Liz said because how many times have I sat there when someone said something demeaning about women and "not made a fuss" either. In another CBE blog a complementarian actually used Luke 10:17 where demons are "subject" to being cast out by Jesus as a parallel for wives being "subject" to husbands. Equating the subjection of demons who are eternally damned with Paul's instruction to wives was one insult I did indeed answer, for there is no connection at all. I hope he didn't mean it as it came across. As I inferred in my statement above, I am from the South, a comp. place indeed. I was reared in a Christian home and accepted Christ as my Savior at age 8. My Dad was a wonderful father, but he was a Southern Baptist pastor with all that that implies. My trek to egalitarianism began as a child reading about the great suffragist Susan B. Anthony. It was the first time I knew that the Bible had been misused to hurt people and it was a real eye-opener, the first of many such. Of course, Miss Anthony knew the Bible and was able to answer her critics, but it still came as a shock to me. God used that book to begin me on my journey to where I am today through Bible study, prayer, and background study on these issues we are discussing. By the time anyone told me outright that women could not preach or lead men, it was too late. I had already read about Deborah the Judge, the woman at the well, Mary Magdalene, and other stories! These many years later, I am egal. to the core. It is the only position that makes solid, scriptural sense from Genesis to Revelation when discussing the relationship between the sexes, and how women may serve God. I can relate to what Liz said because how many times have I sat there when someone said something demeaning about women and “not made a fuss” either. In another CBE blog a complementarian actually used Luke 10:17 where demons are “subject” to being cast out by Jesus as a parallel for wives being “subject” to husbands. Equating the subjection of demons who are eternally damned with Paul’s instruction to wives was one insult I did indeed answer, for there is no connection at all. I hope he didn’t mean it as it came across. As I inferred in my statement above, I am from the South, a comp. place indeed. I was reared in a Christian home and accepted Christ as my Savior at age 8. My Dad was a wonderful father, but he was a Southern Baptist pastor with all that that implies. My trek to egalitarianism began as a child reading about the great suffragist Susan B. Anthony. It was the first time I knew that the Bible had been misused to hurt people and it was a real eye-opener, the first of many such. Of course, Miss Anthony knew the Bible and was able to answer her critics, but it still came as a shock to me. God used that book to begin me on my journey to where I am today through Bible study, prayer, and background study on these issues we are discussing. By the time anyone told me outright that women could not preach or lead men, it was too late. I had already read about Deborah the Judge, the woman at the well, Mary Magdalene, and other stories! These many years later, I am egal. to the core. It is the only position that makes solid, scriptural sense from Genesis to Revelation when discussing the relationship between the sexes, and how women may serve God.

]]> By: Kathryn Vance http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/05/changing-the-mindset/comment-page-1/#comment-1509 Kathryn Vance Thu, 15 Jun 2006 04:28:34 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=44#comment-1509 The reference to the "separate but equal" lie of Jim Crow segregation is a very apt one. As one who grew up at the end of segregation, whenever I hear that "this group is equal to that group, but..." I know that the group not in power (women, African Americans, etc) is going to get short shrift. Our complementarian brothers and sisters might do well to ponder this. Let Gospel freedom ring. The reference to the “separate but equal” lie of Jim Crow segregation is a very apt one. As one who grew up at the end of segregation, whenever I hear that “this group is equal to that group, but…” I know that the group not in power (women, African Americans, etc) is going to get short shrift. Our complementarian brothers and sisters might do well to ponder this. Let Gospel freedom ring.

]]> By: Canopy http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/05/changing-the-mindset/comment-page-1/#comment-1433 Canopy Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:19:49 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=44#comment-1433 People who make demeaning statements generally inspire my sympathy more than dislike. Perhaps it's because they tend to be depressive, edgy or have failed relationships. Or be somehow not entirely real and whole. Is this just my imagination? And I've noticed that male chauvinism unexpectedly seems to have worse results on males than females. People who make demeaning statements generally inspire my sympathy more than dislike. Perhaps it’s because they tend to be depressive, edgy or have failed relationships. Or be somehow not entirely real and whole. Is this just my imagination? And I’ve noticed that male chauvinism unexpectedly seems to have worse results on males than females.

]]> By: Jon Trott http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/05/changing-the-mindset/comment-page-1/#comment-1426 Jon Trott Tue, 13 Jun 2006 05:19:46 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=44#comment-1426 Much more work needs to be done, I think, by those of us so-called "egalitarian" males in putting feet on what we say we believe. I came home tonight and my wife was not feeling well. Thank God, I caught myself becoming irritated at needing to fetch her some dinner (not even cook it -- I live in a commune so the cooking was done!) and some ice water, a blanket, and so forth. I smiled, and did it without her asking. So how many times have I done that for her? Sigh... don't ask. HOW MANY TIMES has she done that for me, and not even blinked at it, been mildly surprised when I thank her for it?!? ARGH! It is so bred into those of us with the little dangly guy that we somehow should expect preferential treatment! The post is right on the money. I also think (RAMBLE alert!) that we egalitarians need to flesh out just what real submission looks like. Because we are indeed supposed to "submit one to another out of reverence for Christ" (Eph 5:21). What does that submission look like? How is it implemented in (a) marriage, (b) church, (c) non-familial, non-formal male-female relationships between Christians? I remain convinced that submission, properly understood, is the greatest need the American Church has -- and in it lies the place to embody Jesus' command to love one another as He loved us. Submission is necessary, an inter-submissive weaving of one to another. But gender-based, one-way "my way or the highway" submission is not only extra-biblical, it is even downright unbiblical. Oh, and it is also a surefire way to make sure the biblical type of mutual submission never happens -- in a marriage, in a family, in the world, or in the Church. Sorry. Got a little carried away. And did you notice the little button to post a comment here says.... "Submit"? Hehehehe... Blessings, Jon Much more work needs to be done, I think, by those of us so-called “egalitarian” males in putting feet on what we say we believe. I came home tonight and my wife was not feeling well. Thank God, I caught myself becoming irritated at needing to fetch her some dinner (not even cook it — I live in a commune so the cooking was done!) and some ice water, a blanket, and so forth. I smiled, and did it without her asking. So how many times have I done that for her? Sigh… don’t ask.

HOW MANY TIMES has she done that for me, and not even blinked at it, been mildly surprised when I thank her for it?!? ARGH! It is so bred into those of us with the little dangly guy that we somehow should expect preferential treatment!

The post is right on the money. I also think (RAMBLE alert!) that we egalitarians need to flesh out just what real submission looks like. Because we are indeed supposed to “submit one to another out of reverence for Christ” (Eph 5:21). What does that submission look like? How is it implemented in (a) marriage, (b) church, (c) non-familial, non-formal male-female relationships between Christians?

I remain convinced that submission, properly understood, is the greatest need the American Church has — and in it lies the place to embody Jesus’ command to love one another as He loved us. Submission is necessary, an inter-submissive weaving of one to another. But gender-based, one-way “my way or the highway” submission is not only extra-biblical, it is even downright unbiblical.

Oh, and it is also a surefire way to make sure the biblical type of mutual submission never happens — in a marriage, in a family, in the world, or in the Church.

Sorry. Got a little carried away. And did you notice the little button to post a comment here says…. “Submit”? Hehehehe…

Blessings,
Jon

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