The CBE Scroll

There is an excellent article on godswordtowomen.org called, “Empirical Data in Support of Egalitarian Marriages and A Fresh Perspective on Submission and Authority,” that reviews many scientific studies that all say that marriages that operate on the basis of equality are much more healthy than those that are hierarchical — in fact that hierarchical approaches actually harm marriages.

The research reviewed include studies by the following professionals who work within the fields of marriage and family therapy, sociology, and demography:

• A 2001 Barna Research Group survey of Christian denominations.
• Dr. Howard Clinebell, Professor Emeritus of Pastoral Psychology and Counseling, Claremont School of Theology
• Drs. Alan Booth and Paul Amato, Penn State sociologists and demographers
• Dr. David H. Olson, Professor Emeritus, Family Social Science, University of Minnesota
• Drs. David H. Olson and Shuji G. Asai of the University of Minnesota
• Dr. Diana R. Garland, Professor and Chair of the School of Social Work and Director of the Center for Family and Community Ministries at Baylor University
• Drs. Pepper Schwartz and Philip Blumstein, University of Washington sociologists

In his summary of these studies’ findings, Rev. Preato says the following:

Over the last 50 years these studies reveal that significant numbers of egalitarian marriages are happy in comparison to traditional hierarchical marriages. A recent study quantified these results revealing that over 80% of egalitarian marriages are happy while less than 20% of traditional marriages can say the same. That represents over a 4:1 ratio in favor of egalitarian marriages. Spousal abuse continues to be more than 300 percent higher in traditional marriages than in egalitarian marriages.

These research studies accomplish the following: First, they effectively discredit any traditionalists’ notion that dismantling hierarchy destabilizes marriage and that the root problem in marriage is the unwillingness of each spouse to accept the role for which he or she was designed. Second, they prove that hierarchy actually destabilizes and harms marriages. Third, they provide objective data that egalitarian marriages produce the healthiest, happiest, most intimate, and stable of all marriage relationships with the least amount of spousal abuse.

The point being made here is not that CBE is out for more “women’s rights” or is trying to upset the “traditional” ways of church and home. We are trying to save marriage and to help churches be more responsible, accurate and wise in the advice they give to husbands and wives. If this comes to pass, the impact of it will far surpass the fact that more women break through the glass ceiling in countless churches.

Do you perceive that you serve the church differently because you are a woman? Is there anything in your leadership style or whatever that you think of as “feminine”?

Honestly, I care about the flower and candle arrangements in the church. I doubt many of my male counterparts do, but some certainly may. That has nothing to do with leadership, though, does it? Well, I think a good pastor is going to have certain characteristics. A pastor should be courageous, able to preach and teach, flexible, have a sense of humor, be approachable, not afraid to do the difficult thing, and so on. Those are not gender related, in my opinion. However, people do tell me that I am more relational than their male pastors have been, more diplomatic, more open about myself and my struggles. I do not know if that has anything to do with gender. I also don’t know if it is about me or about their former pastors! I don’t think of my leadership as “feminine,” though I do think most would describe me as a feminine person. I’d actually be interested to see if others who are looking on (or following) do see it that way. And I admit to having gotten teary-eyed a few times on Sunday morning.

What do you wish churches understood about women in ministry?

I wish they understood that there are often some extra challenges. I recently saw this list on the blog “Christian Egalitarians.” These are simple things to do, but would make a difference.

1. Be intentional about quoting females.
2. Be an encourager and advocate to women who are working with you and under you.
3. Provide scholarships for women to attend important gatherings and provide childcare.
4. Be intentional about having women be part of the planning team.
5. Leave some space in the conversation for women’s voices.
6. If you are asked to speak somewhere, ask if some of your honorarium can go towards making sure women are there.
7. Invite women in to publish in your journals and books.
8. Keep your eyes open for women doing outstanding things under the radar.

What would you say to girls and young women who are wondering about how they fit into the Body of Christ?

As for girls and young women, one of the joys of my life is simply being an example by standing behind the pulpit. I rejoice in the opportunities I have had to influence young women in a positive way. I was silently rejoicing at last years’ Christmas drama at my church when a thirteen-year old girl played the pastor part in a skit. It was an exciting moment! I say the same thing to everyone, male or female, “There is no list of gender requirements when it comes to spiritual gifts. Seek to become the person God created you to be. Then be that, to the glory of God. Let no one hinder you, once you know what you are to do. You can be anything God calls you to be. Anything.”

How do people react when you are introduced to them as a pastor?

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at that question. About two weeks into the pastorate I was officiating at a very large funeral—my first. The hour before the funeral was a “viewing” so I greeted people I knew, met family members, and so on. I thought all was going well. Then I was introduced to a cousin of the deceased. “This is our new pastor” said the smiling parishioner, nodding towards me and looking expectant. Cousin looked stunned and stepped backwards. A moment of silence ensued, during which time I extended my hand. No response. After an awkward moment she said, “The pastor?” I nodded, my hand still extended, “Yes, I am the pastor at Jubilee.” “The real pastor?” At that point she very pointedly looked me over slowly from head to toe and back. “So,” she said, “does that make you a…a pastorette?” I dropped my hand and said, “A pastorette? No, I have never heard of such a thing as a pastorette. I’m simply the pastor.” That ended the conversation.

Once I received a phone call from our church’s insurance agency. The secretary asked to speak with the pastor. When I replied that she was speaking with the pastor, she said, “No, I don’t want to speak with his secretary. I want to speak directly to the pastor.” “I understand. You are speaking to the pastor right now.” “I am trying to contact the senior pastor of the church.” “Right” I reply, “I’m it.” “No, dear, I don’t want to speak to you. Are you the pastor’s wife? I want to speak with your husband, please.” I was getting testy, to say the least. “I am not the pastor’s wife. I have told you three times now that I am the pastor.” The line went silent for some time. “Are you there?” The voice on the other end said, “A woman? A woman pastor?” I really could hardly believe that she could be so rude, and worse, that she could be totally unaware that there are women clergy. I took a deep breath and said, “There are many women pastors. Not as many as men, but we are out here.” “Well,” she replied, apparently still not sure if I was being truthful, “I’ve never heard of such a thing.” I said goodbye and hung up the phone, and later I called the agent personally and asked him to educate his secretary. I asked politely. It was grace!

On the positive side, I am in an unusual situation in that there are actually more women clergy in my area than men. I was quite shocked when I attended my first ministerial meeting to find six women present and two men! So most of the time I don’t get the kind of reactions I noted above. Once in a while they still happen. And sometime we will have visitors who, upon being introduced to me, look stunned and head for the door before church begins. That makes me deeply sad.

Something that really irks me is receiving form letters, sometimes even from departments in my own denomination, which speak to me as a “he.” I was once invited to come to the district men’s meeting, a three-day event, and bring “your men.” I couldn’t let that one go. I responded and I’ll leave that to your imagination, but this year I received the same kind of letter again.

How have you dealt with those who are opposed to women in ministry?

It depends on the situation. Sometimes I try to educate them a little bit. Usually I don’t. I just do the best I can to be gracious, and I move on. I have been known to write letters, as I did to the men’s director who invited me to the men’s conference. I once wrote our headquarters about a graphic they had suggested our churches use for pastor appreciation day. It was a well-done black and white depiction of five people in a harvest field. All were male. It would have been simple to make just one or two female. I received a perfunctory reply to my letter, from a secretary. I know I could become distracted about the issue to the detriment of other things I need to do, so I try to focus on the work God gives me, most of the time. It gets easier as time goes on. Usually. Once in a while I am surprised at the pain I feel at being rejected or (worse) patronized because of gender.

Dorcas George is the pastor of Jubilee Assembly of God in New Holstein Wisconsin. She is a blogger, a historical reenactor, and a grandmother in training. She has graciously agreed to be interviewed for The CBE Scroll.

What in your religious upbringing prepared you to be a woman in church leadership?

I grew up with a father who was adamant that when it came to church, we would attend, give and participate faithfully. We did not wake up on Sunday morning and decide whether to attend church or sleep in. We learned to serve in whatever way we could. We learned to give cheerfully and generously. I learned to love the Church of Jesus Christ, “warts and all.” Following my dad’s example, I also learned to study the written word of God carefully. He was not a pastor, but he was a wonderful Bible teacher and a lifelong Baptist deacon.

I am a pastor and I love to preach. Nonetheless, there are many Sunday mornings when I do not want to get out of bed. Every time I step on the platform I wonder what I am doing there. I am a shy person at heart, and sometimes I long to sit on the back pew. My dad would not, and I do not! Thanks to him, I learned early not to depend on my feelings, but to do what was right in God’s sight.

Our family attended a Southern Baptist church. I had wonderful teachers and I knew I was loved. It was Training Union, the name for Sunday night graded classes, that ignited a desire in my heart to serve God. There we often read about Baptist missionaries, including Lottie Moon and Amy Carmichael. I can still picture the missions offering envelopes featuring the sweet and lovely face of Lottie Moon. I read a great deal and learned about heroes and heroines of the faith, and I longed to serve God faithfully as they did. My childhood church laid a strong foundation for my Christian life.

What (if anything) might have hindered you from responding to God’s call to serve as a pastor?

Ironically, the same father and the same church which contributed so much to my growth also contributed to some wrong but very strong perceptions about women and the church. It took me many years to overcome my sense of being somehow “less” than males. Offices of pastor, deacon, adult teacher, in short any leadership in church was clearly a man’s place. Women staffed the nursery, taught children, sang in the choir, and (most of all) served wonderful fried chicken at church dinners. I also knew they could be missionaries, and my heart was willing. But I knew that physical problems I faced would keep me from being a likely candidate. I never considered pastoring a church, of course. Even later when I realized that God was calling and gifting me to do exactly that, I struggled mightily–a struggle that lasted years. Even when I did become ordained, my father never acknowledged that I was a minister. It simply was not spoken of between us.

One of the problems with developing a concern (or anger!) over biblical equality is that it can hang over you like a cloud and drag you down in the dumps, make you feel moody, put other people out of sorts against you. How much more safe and sane to just attend your sweet little evangelical church, don’t make waves, and float in the old familiar music and words. But is that right? As Hope said so well on my blog [permission sought and granted]:

I feel frustrated for being grieved about this too. I keep waiting for it to pass. I think, I’ll get over it, forgive and forget. It won’t bug me, etc.. hasn’t happened yet in the last 2 years. If anything, it’s intensified. I heard Hybels of Willow Creek talk on a topic called ‘holy discontent’. He said, if there is some issue out there that you can’t lose, there is probably a reason. It’s your ‘holy discontent’. God wants you to use it to do something. Don’t let it embitter you, use it for his glory. So, I rest in that. Perhaps it’s not so awful that the issue is staying with me. Perhaps it will make me more sensitive to people who are oppressed, judged, stereotyped. Perhaps, it will make me a better Christian.

Jon Trott has a recent posting of his struggle with anger in a post called Cornerstone Festival and Christians for Biblical Equality and he says it quite well:

In my own case, my anger seems more often to end in something destructive, esp. when I think I’m right about something. But after listening to Sarah, and then during Q and A offering what I (and not Julia, so she doesn’t get in trouble) called “the evangelical enablement of a rape culture,” I was left thinking about anger’s positive aspects. As one friend (a woman pastor, appropriately!) told me later after listening to my reflections, William Barclay writes regarding Jesus’ words on anger in the Sermon on the Mount that (her words), “When we are angry on behalf of someone else, there’s a much better chance that anger is constructive, godly anger, than when we’re angry on behalf of ourselves.” Yes, something like that.

How hard it is to think of others. But if we do, we not only satisfy Jesus’ command to love our neighbor, but we also better channel our anger. God might even change it to joy because we’ll be in the center of His will along with our holy discontent.