The CBE Scroll

Blog voices from Christians for Biblical Equality

Breaking News: Female Sunday School Teacher Fired after 54 Years

Filed under: Biblical Interpretation, CBE, Education, Justice, Personal Story — Alex at 3:04 pm on Monday, August 21, 2006

Today, August 21st, the Associated Press released a tragic story from Watertown, New York (view full story). For Mary Lambert, the decision from her young pastor ended 54 years of service as a Sunday school teacher. The decision was reached after adopting a “literal interpretation” of Scripture. That passage, as you may have guessed, is 1 Timothy 2:12: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man…” The pastor, however, thinks that women outside of the church are not limited by the biblical command. Rev. LaBouf wrote this on Saturday: “‘I believe that a woman can perform any job and fulfill any responsibility that she desires to’ outside of the church.”

So if he truly believes that women can “perform any job” outside of the church, I would assume Rev. LaBouf would not oppose women being teachers, say in public or possibly even private schools—as long as they did not teach anything about the Bible. But if women can be capable and even gifted teachers in that setting, why would he be opposed to letting those women use their gifts in a Sunday school setting? The inconsistencies abound. Even most complementarians I know do not oppose women teaching Sunday school. They take the word “man” as literally as possible to exclude children. Therefore, women can teach male children but not adult males. Then of course, the decision for when a male child becomes a male adult is arbitrarily drawn—usually during the adolescent years. And aren’t children the most impressionable of all?

With the same level of “literal interpretation,” I hope LaBouf takes the command for “men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing,” which appears in 1 Timothy only a few verses earlier. The “literal” interpretation becomes nothing more than a “selective” interpretation to justify a theology that restricts women. This inconsistent interpretation is demonstrated in any church that is concerned about the *apparent restrictions* placed on women in 1 Tim. 2:12. They are quick to limit women from teaching, but not as quick to command the men to lift up their hands while praying, or even to stop them from disputing. A holistic and biblical perspective of gender recognizes that our identity is not in gender, but in Christ, as articulated by Galatians 3:28, Colossians 3:11-12, and 2 Corinthians 5:16-17.

While Mary Lambert’s story made the Associated Press today, we at CBE hear stories like this all the time. CBE affirms that God uses the gifts of all people, regardless of gender. When I speak with our members I ask them what they appreciate about our ministry; most say “knowing they’re not alone.” Lambert is also not alone either, and our prayers go out to her.

24 Comments »

Comment by B-W

August 21, 2006 @ 4:03 pm

But if women can be capable and even gifted teachers in that setting, why would he be opposed to letting those women use their gifts in a Sunday school setting?

I feel kind of stupid (not being a complementarian) providing the obvious answer to this question but…

“Because God says so.”

Really, I mean, that’s all there is to it. It’s not at all about gifting for these people. It’s about obedience to God’s word. And these people really do believe that God’s word forbids things like female Sunday School teachers.

It’s ridiculously sad, but not really inconsistent, in and of itself. (Your points about complementarians not following through so well on other passages are well taken, but since we don’t know how LaBouf handles such passages, we can only speculate here.)

Comment by B-W

August 21, 2006 @ 4:24 pm

By the way, I did think it interesting that the actual letter (shown as an image on the website linked in the blog entry above, and again in the CNN video) was signed by Kendra LaBouf, not Timothy.

While assuming (without further data) that Kendra is Timothy’s wife may be stretch, Kendra is generally a female name. The letter says Kendra is the “church clerk.” Although the only “authority” we see directly exercised via this article is a woman over a woman, one assumes that a church clerk could be argued as having some authority over a man. Perhaps we can start to see the “inconsistencies” on display here….

Comment by Darlene Gallohay

August 21, 2006 @ 5:52 pm

If the biblical text is truly read, you will see that up to a certain age a woman can teach a boy not a man and that a woman can teach the gospel. The Bible doesn’t say that a woman can’t participate in church. If during WWII our church would have died because all the men had left. I think that the pastor has misunderstood that concept and that he didn’t fully comprehend the situation. He could have switched her to a different class of all woman or a younger class, not completely eliminate her.

Comment by sally

August 21, 2006 @ 9:01 pm

I read the full story on the connection you gave, plus a lot of the comments (some of which are worse than the story itself!). Am I right in thinking that she was a children’s Sunday school teacher? Or is it the American version of Sunday school - for adults too. If it was children, all I can say is, how would that church ever get any more teachers? Nobody ever seems to want to volunteer for anything, especially not children’s ministry!

but it is very timely: in our women’s Bible study this week we are looking at the 1 Tim 2 passage… I might take it along.

Comment by Jon Trott

August 22, 2006 @ 7:41 am

The oddest wrinkle in this story (which I have also blogged about on my http://bluechristian.blogspot.com), is the secondary reaction from the pastor and his board to Ms. Lambert going to the press over her dismissal. They say that the gender issue was not the only reason. That is a very curious comment, esp. because they (rather disingenuously in my opinion) declined to specify exactly what the other alleged reasons were.

In short, they apparently USED gender as an excuse to get rid of someone they found troublesome. It is not beyond conception that she perhaps was, in fact, being difficult on some level. But in light of that, using her gender as the excuse to ditch her seems doubly twisted. The Baptist denomination involved in this is a mainstream one, though I would be interested in finding out where Timothy Labouf got his pastoral degree…

Anyway, thanks again CBE for your witness regarding mutuality.

Comment by Alex

August 22, 2006 @ 7:47 am

Re: comment #5: I do want to clarify, the church put out a press release that claimed Lambert was relieved of her duties as a Sunday school, not only on account of her gender, but for additional reasons. However, when the majority of her dismissal letter from the board quotes 1 Timothy 2:12, it’s difficult to believe that gender, or more appropriately sexism, was not the primary reason. I also encourage you to visit Jon Trott’s blog: http://bluechristian.blogspot.com/

Comment by Psalmist in Texas

August 22, 2006 @ 9:29 am

I’ve been reading elsewhere that we egalitarians think that receiving a gift (in the case of the dismissed teacher–who is not necessarily egalitarian–teaching), constitutes the authority to use that gift. This is not true, at least as I understand godly authority. Instead, the gifting, God’s call to use it, and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, together, carry the inherent authority to serve through the exercise of that gift.

This is an important distinction, one that many non-egalitarian Christians seem to misunderstand. Since they seem to believe God is limited to calling only men to do certain tasks within the church, they refuse to consider that God continues to call countless women to serve entire congregations and or/groups of adults (including men). As I try to reason out this kind of limiting of God’s prerogative and power, I realize that two flawed concepts are primary: 1. A hermeneutic that eisegetes “only men are permitted to lead and teach other men in the church” is used; and 2. God never overrules concept 1. In other words, God is not permitted to challenge extrabiblical concepts of what God can and cannot do. It’s apparently quite easy to dismiss wholesale entire denominations for recognizing that God certainly CAN call and use women in these ways. “If God does things I don’t agree with, then God didn’t do them.”

I don’t see much room for the Holy Spirit’s work in this kind of hermeneutic. The Bible, as statically interpreted by that hermeneutic, is more powerful than God. Therefore, the One Who endows the believer with God’s power to do God’s will, is too constantly irritating a reminder that God cannot be tamed to one’s own preferred methodology.

One other telling point in the broader issue (not specific to the instance described in the news story) is that you’ll never find solid agreement about what “in the church” means (as in, “women be silent in church”), the cut-off age for boys to become men and therefore not to be taught by women, and most telling of all, what dire consequences await women and the congregations that allow God to call and use them to teach and lead all their people (including the men).

Comment by Alex

August 22, 2006 @ 1:19 pm

Re: comment #1: Thanks for pointing this out. Obviously, under their interpretation of Scripture, it is not inconsistent. But there is another way to interpret that Scripture that doesn’t limit women’s involvement in church leadership. And I do think the latter interpretation is more accurate, and therefore, to interpret 1 Tim. 2:12 as excluding women from leadership or teaching is inconsistent with Scripture (although maybe not inconsistent with some restrictive traditions). For more on interpreting this text check out these articles.

Re: comment #2: Yes, it is curious that “Kendra” signed the letter. However, it is best not to assume that she, as the clerk, had the authority to make this decision. Every piece of news I’ve read suggests that the decision was reached by the church board and the pastor.

Re: comment #3: The biblical text makes no distinction about women teaching boys and not teaching adult males. That said, some complementarians believe women can teach boys, but not men. As I pointed out in the original post, the line is drawn arbitrarily between what makes a boy and what makes a man. So it’s not as if we can simply “read” the text, because we are always *interpreting* the text. Our interpretations are often invisible to us, much like culture. However, once we leave our own culture, we realize how much of our life is based on and around our own culture. But you are absolutely right; the Bible doesn’t say women can’t participate in church, nor does it say they can’t be Sunday school teachers.

Comment by Administrator

August 22, 2006 @ 1:21 pm

To view the press release issued by Rev. LaBouf, click here.

Comment by B-W

August 22, 2006 @ 3:39 pm

Re: #8,

I absolutely agree re: your response and clarification of my response #1.

Re: my response #2, I agree that “Kendra” did not make this decision. However, as clerk, she clearly holds some authority. I was simply arguing that such a position would seem to be inconsistent with this church’s stated views.

Re: #9,

Nothing terribly surprising here. It’s in keeping with everything we’ve been told so far, and perhaps explains why the “more political” reasons for Ms. Lambert’s dismissal were left out of the actual letter informing her of it. Although I can understand the desire to protect oneself from legal entanglements, this still smacks of cowardice.

Rev. LaBouf references his belief that he will someday have to “stand before God and give an account of how [he] proclaimed and enforced [God's] word within the church setting especially.” I expect that Rev. LaBouf will be in for a surprise on that day….

Comment by Alex

August 23, 2006 @ 11:46 am

CBE has now issued a formal press release. More updates on the response of CBE to follow.

Comment by Alex

August 23, 2006 @ 12:13 pm

CBE is having a book sale in honor of Mary Lambert. Do you know of anyone who has had similar experiences to Mary Lambert? Invite them to share their stories on the CBE Scroll. And you can help them connect with fellow brothers and sisters that believe in full equality between women and men by giving the gift of membership. Click here to learn more!

Comment by Kathryn

August 23, 2006 @ 2:23 pm

That church, like all complementarian churches, needs a better interpretation of 1 Timothy 2. What of Deborah in Judges 4, who had men under her authority? It is time for complementarian churches to declare all the counsel of God on this issue, something they have obviously failed to do up until now.

Comment by Becky

August 23, 2006 @ 2:26 pm

Mr. Labouf is more than welcome to run his church as he seems fit…whether I agree with him or not. It’s his congregation that is in charge of deciding whether or not they would like him as their leader. I don’t agree with him but I don’t have to…I’m not a member of his church. It’s the congregation that needs to step up and make their voices heard. This is okay with them? I find that hard to believe. They need to take their tithes and move on to a church that will welcome them and praise them for the gifts they have…men AND women.

However, Mr. Labouf is a member of the public city council. Making decisions that will affect all of the city. You mean to tell me he can stand on the line of church vs state with one foot on either side and tell us he can do his job regardless of his beliefs? I don’t think so. There’s no way this man can believe, in his heart, that women have no place in the church and then turn around and tell me he has no problem with women outside of it? Give me a break! Either women are equal to men or they’re not, Mr. Labouf….choose one.

Comment by Alex

August 23, 2006 @ 2:59 pm

Re: comment #14: I fully agree that Rev. LaBouf will have difficulty making a distinction between the church and state on regard to equality. However, I think your first statement about Rev. LaBouf run[ing] his church as he [see] fit may be incorrect. He, like most pastors, does not have final or even full authority in his church. Even in the case of Lambert, the church board made the decision, not only Rev. LaBouf. Likewise, in many denominations it is actually the congregation that can overturn a ruling of the church board and a church board over the pastor. Such systems and ecclesiologies are set in place to avoid an abuse of power (though not always exercised). If the people of Lambert’s church don’t like the board’s decision, they should unite and overturn it. I’m going to check into official documents from the American Baptist denomination to determine whether or not they also are governed this way. If anyone knows, please join the conversation.

Comment by cokhavim

August 23, 2006 @ 9:25 pm

I hope Ms. Lambert knows that she has so much support here. Does she know? I know that if I were in her position, I’d really appreciate this support.

Comment by B-W

August 24, 2006 @ 8:21 am

I can’t speak for Ms. Lambert, but if she’s more conservative than CBE, she may in fact be embarrassed by such support from this site. We should not assume, just because we agree she should not have been fired, that she is “one of us.”

Comment by Alex

August 24, 2006 @ 8:46 am

Re: comment #17: I think you’re absolutely right B-W. We don’t know if she agrees with CBE’s position. I didn’t mean to imply that she does. However, because of the ministry of CBE, we want to extend our support, sympathy, and prayers to her. I think it is experiences like hers that help people discover biblical equality.

Comment by Lori

August 28, 2006 @ 5:50 am

Re: #10

I expect that Rev. LaBouf will be in for a surprise on that day….

B-W, that is too funny! When I read this latest entry on The Scroll to my husband, the first thing he said was, “Boy, some people are going to have a lot of explaining to do on Judgment Day.” :)

You also talked about Kendra, the church secretary. For years I attended a fairly large comp. church. Their ministerial staff was all male, but they also had a couple of secretaries. I honestly don’t think male comps. think of secretaries as having any authority.

I find it interesting that this church has only recently converted to comp. theology. I belong to another egalitarian forum, and over there somebody posted a link to a blog written by a militant comp. I am not kidding, this guy actually said that comps. should “infiltrate” egal. churches by joining, then quietly trying to turn members of the congregation to their beliefs, then trying to get those members elected to the church board so they could turn the church into a comp. one. I wonder if that’s what happened with this church? Scary.

Comment by Andy Rowell

August 28, 2006 @ 8:59 am

See the comments of Dan Kimball, author of Emerging Church, at

http://www.dankimball.com/vintage_faith/2006/08/woman_cant_teac.html.

Comment by Andy Rowell

August 28, 2006 @ 9:10 am

See also the comments of Ben Witherington, who is a New Testament scholar at Asbury Seminary and the writer of many commentaries at
http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2006/08/sunday-school-teacher-of-54-years.html.

Comment by Kathryn

September 6, 2006 @ 10:44 pm

This is just another reason why we at CBE need to be making egalitarian books, articles, and other resources available to church libraries as much as possible.

Comment by TeriLynn

September 9, 2006 @ 11:46 am

re: post #14

“However, Mr. Labouf is a member of the public city council. Making decisions that will affect all of the city. You mean to tell me he can stand on the line of church vs state with one foot on either side and tell us he can do his job regardless of his beliefs? I don’t think so. There’s no way this man can believe, in his heart, that women have no place in the church and then turn around and tell me he has no problem with women outside of it? Give me a break! Either women are equal to men or they’re not, Mr. Labouf… choose one.”

My comment is that Pastor Labouf has given such a bad witness to Christianity and churches that I doubt he will get re-elected to his council when the seat runs out. And it is doubtful that very many women will be coming to his church to find out what God is about.

This is such a bad witness of what churches are about to women that it makes it all that much more important that those who value women as equal citizens of the kingdom of God need to stand up and let the world know that there is no partiality with God. He turns no one away and values each person equally.

Comment by TeriLynn

September 9, 2006 @ 11:58 am

Here is one of the comments this news story has generated from the public:

Could not agree with you more. I have stayed away from church for 57 years and it’s working for me. I would encourage others to stay away from church, also. If everyone stayed away from church the world would be much better off.

Interesting, that such a supposedly godly action as removing the woman teacher because she is a woman teaching mixed groups, could generate such repulse from the world. Yet we are told that doing things in the fruit of the Spirit of God, there is no law against.

They have generated more distrust of churches that the whole body of Christ will have to deal with. And we can expect that blinded by their prejudices they will do more in the future. The parts of the church with her eyes open needs to get prepared to have ministries of healing ready.

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