Comments on: “Set Apart,” but is it by Fear? http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/09/set-apartby-fear/ Blog voices from Christians for Biblical Equality Wed, 08 Feb 2012 16:51:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Kathryn http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/09/set-apartby-fear/comment-page-1/#comment-11295 Kathryn Tue, 31 Oct 2006 04:42:55 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=84#comment-11295 Re: comments 29 & 30: Yes indeed. We are to speak out on behalf of the oppressed, not to assert our own rights, but to give a voice to those whose voice has been squelched because of the rottenness of prejudice. Very often it is our own people who have been silenced. As a woman, I can certainly claim that, and while I wouldn't mind it too much for myself, I do mind that it has happened to us as a whole. I also mind that God's own voice has been silenced as a result. Re: comments 29 & 30: Yes indeed. We are to speak out on behalf of the oppressed, not to assert our own rights, but to give a voice to those whose voice has been squelched because of the rottenness of prejudice. Very often it is our own people who have been silenced. As a woman, I can certainly claim that, and while I wouldn’t mind it too much for myself, I do mind that it has happened to us as a whole. I also mind that God’s own voice has been silenced as a result.

]]> By: Marissa http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/09/set-apartby-fear/comment-page-1/#comment-11261 Marissa Mon, 30 Oct 2006 20:20:54 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=84#comment-11261 Re: Comment #29 I see how someone could be against people boldly proclaiming their own greatness. It is not scriptural to think of ourselves as better then others, or more important than others. It is also not scriptural to treat the more honored in society with better treatment, position, and authority then the less honored. Or to let injustice happen right before our eyes and not stand up and speak. (please reference James 2:1-4) The heart of the egalitarian movement is redeeming in society and the church what God has already set in place. Egalitarians are not trying to exalt women above men or assert their superiority. Rather, egalitarians are giving a voice to those who, for many reasons, are not granted a voice, even in their own communities of service Egalitarians ask that each individual be evaluated on their personal gifting, their own life of Christian witness, and not limited by their gender. Because our society, and many of our churches, do not follow this model, gifting based on the individual is a biblical truth that needs to be proclaimed and addressed. Egalitarians enter this discussion with honor and humility, knowing that the gifting is from God and not because of our own efforts or talents. Asserting the ability to lead based on gifting and not on gender comes not from pride, or egotism, but rather a desire to see people flourish and live more fully with their God-given abilities. Jesus begins the Sermon on the Mount by blessing many groups of people who were considered cursed and untouchables in his society. He then closes that blessing with these words: <blockquote>“You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead, they put it on a stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven” (Matt 6:14-16).</blockquote> May all people be able to let their good works shine as a testimony to God. Re: Comment #29
I see how someone could be against people boldly proclaiming their own greatness. It is not scriptural to think of ourselves as better then others, or more important than others. It is also not scriptural to treat the more honored in society with better treatment, position, and authority then the less honored. Or to let injustice happen right before our eyes and not stand up and speak. (please reference James 2:1-4)
The heart of the egalitarian movement is redeeming in society and the church what God has already set in place. Egalitarians are not trying to exalt women above men or assert their superiority. Rather, egalitarians are giving a voice to those who, for many reasons, are not granted a voice, even in their own communities of service Egalitarians ask that each individual be evaluated on their personal gifting, their own life of Christian witness, and not limited by their gender. Because our society, and many of our churches, do not follow this model, gifting based on the individual is a biblical truth that needs to be proclaimed and addressed. Egalitarians enter this discussion with honor and humility, knowing that the gifting is from God and not because of our own efforts or talents.
Asserting the ability to lead based on gifting and not on gender comes not from pride, or egotism, but rather a desire to see people flourish and live more fully with their God-given abilities. Jesus begins the Sermon on the Mount by blessing many groups of people who were considered cursed and untouchables in his society. He then closes that blessing with these words:

“You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead, they put it on a stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven” (Matt 6:14-16).

May all people be able to let their good works shine as a testimony to God.

]]> By: Layne http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/09/set-apartby-fear/comment-page-1/#comment-10997 Layne Sat, 28 Oct 2006 07:35:47 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=84#comment-10997 The scriptural model FOR BOTH SEXES is one of submission and servitude. The assertion of rights and equality is a relatively modern, western (and dare I say somewhat feministicly perpetrated) idea that flies in the face of what Jesus taught. I'm all for defending the helpless. Unless that helpless person is yourself. It is not our place to take a stand for our "rights" or even to assert our giftedness. The Christ-like way is to serve with humility and self-debasement, considering others as more important than ourselves. The scriptural model FOR BOTH SEXES is one of submission and servitude. The assertion of rights and equality is a relatively modern, western (and dare I say somewhat feministicly perpetrated) idea that flies in the face of what Jesus taught. I’m all for defending the helpless. Unless that helpless person is yourself. It is not our place to take a stand for our “rights” or even to assert our giftedness. The Christ-like way is to serve with humility and self-debasement, considering others as more important than ourselves.

]]> By: Kathryn http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/09/set-apartby-fear/comment-page-1/#comment-9335 Kathryn Sun, 08 Oct 2006 20:46:12 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=84#comment-9335 Thank you Molly for your insights. As a Southerner, I have seen what you describe at the height of the Civil Rights movement. Those in power very often do not want to move over and make room. This is, I'm sure, a human condition. In my last comment, I was trying to say that we should not elevate women by putting men down. Thank you Molly for your insights. As a Southerner, I have seen what you describe at the height of the Civil Rights movement. Those in power very often do not want to move over and make room. This is, I’m sure, a human condition. In my last comment, I was trying to say that we should not elevate women by putting men down.

]]> By: molly http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/09/set-apartby-fear/comment-page-1/#comment-9291 molly Sat, 07 Oct 2006 20:20:09 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=84#comment-9291 Thanks for the conversation all. Just a few thoughts... Elevating one sex to equal status doesn't *actually* debase the other, but for those who have been taught that their status is based on the unequal status of the OTHER sex, it...does serve to ruin them if the lower sex is brought to equal standing. The previously "high" gender is now... what? For his entire religous and/or cultural life, he has been defined as a man BECAUSE he was in charge.... His rule is what makes him manly, in other words. So you take away that rule and... now what is he? I think that women have a lot to gain by equality, but men, honestly, have a lot to lose (even if it is only a perceived loss). It makes sense that they would struggle against the change, and also that they would struggle finding their own identity once ruling-over-her is no longer their main gender characteristic. Thanks for the conversation all. Just a few thoughts…

Elevating one sex to equal status doesn’t *actually* debase the other, but for those who have been taught that their status is based on the unequal status of the OTHER sex, it…does serve to ruin them if the lower sex is brought to equal standing.

The previously “high” gender is now… what? For his entire religous and/or cultural life, he has been defined as a man BECAUSE he was in charge…. His rule is what makes him manly, in other words. So you take away that rule and… now what is he?

I think that women have a lot to gain by equality, but men, honestly, have a lot to lose (even if it is only a perceived loss).

It makes sense that they would struggle against the change, and also that they would struggle finding their own identity once ruling-over-her is no longer their main gender characteristic.

]]> By: TeriLynn http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/09/set-apartby-fear/comment-page-1/#comment-9290 TeriLynn Sat, 07 Oct 2006 20:17:57 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=84#comment-9290 re: post #22 "It has been my observation that complementarianism starts out soft and hardens over time. Those “soft” patriarchs may be new to the cause." This is what I have seen also. I've watched some very gentle people turn viciously aggressive with the complimentarian/patriarchal message the deeper they got into the philosophy of it. Those who take the term at face value as speaking of complementarity in relationships, are not IMO true modern complementarians. Fact is that egalitarian marriages are more complementary than the model the comp leaders teach. Now that's confusing, ey! :) re: post #22
“It has been my observation that complementarianism starts out soft and hardens over time. Those “soft” patriarchs may be new to the cause.”

This is what I have seen also. I’ve watched some very gentle people turn viciously aggressive with the complimentarian/patriarchal message the deeper they got into the philosophy of it.

Those who take the term at face value as speaking of complementarity in relationships, are not IMO true modern complementarians. Fact is that egalitarian marriages are more complementary than the model the comp leaders teach. Now that’s confusing, ey! :)

]]> By: Kathryn http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/09/set-apartby-fear/comment-page-1/#comment-9221 Kathryn Fri, 06 Oct 2006 04:47:35 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=84#comment-9221 Thank you Susan for highlighting an important point: Elevating one sex to equal authority does not mean debasing the other! Of course, every egalitarian on this blog knows and appreciates this, but it bears repeating from time to time, and can even be reassuring to someone who is wavering on the edge of equality, and help persuade them to come on over. You made another important point too: Quite apart from the issue of equality, being "Christlike" is not the same as "being passive." Thank you Susan for highlighting an important point: Elevating one sex to equal authority does not mean debasing the other! Of course, every egalitarian on this blog knows and appreciates this, but it bears repeating from time to time, and can even be reassuring to someone who is wavering on the edge of equality, and help persuade them to come on over. You made another important point too: Quite apart from the issue of equality, being “Christlike” is not the same as “being passive.”

]]> By: Susan http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/09/set-apartby-fear/comment-page-1/#comment-9208 Susan Thu, 05 Oct 2006 22:36:03 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=84#comment-9208 This is a great forum! Today I did a quick scan of "Married but Not Engaged" by the Coughlins. I mainly was interested in the premise that there is a difference between how men behave before marriage and after according to these authors. Surprisingly, I stumbled across some interesting material about fear and the role it might play in Christian men sometimes being passive as they try to emulate Christ and the frustration women often feel for being forced into a role of matriarch when they thought they were sharing their lives with someone believing in a democracy. There were several thought-provoking lines in the book that whether I agree or not, gave me an opportunity to see things from yet another perspective. While I have heard and read much about fear of equality and the supposed demasculation of men, it seems we never get too far away from needing to constantly reassure men (and some women) that elevating women to roles of leadership (in the church and life) is not to take away from men, but rather to follow Christ's example in equality. We can serve side by side, using our gifts that God has given each of us, not bound by some threat or fear to our own respective genders, but in true service. No one has to suffer for inclusion, and certainly no one should suffer the pain and frustration of exclusion! How we squelch the pervasive fear of so many, remains the BIG question. Fear is seemingly based in lack of knowledge and thus the answer may be in the continuing dilligence of CBE, etc., to keep plodding along with truth and courage. I applaud your efforts and continue to pray for your organization, along with the many people who need to hear and know the truth! This is a great forum! Today I did a quick scan of “Married but Not Engaged” by the Coughlins. I mainly was interested in the premise that there is a difference between how men behave before marriage and after according to these authors. Surprisingly, I stumbled across some interesting material about fear and the role it might play in Christian men sometimes being passive as they try to emulate Christ and the frustration women often feel for being forced into a role of matriarch when they thought they were sharing their lives with someone believing in a democracy. There were several thought-provoking lines in the book that whether I agree or not, gave me an opportunity to see things from yet another perspective. While I have heard and read much about fear of equality and the supposed demasculation of men, it seems we never get too far away from needing to constantly reassure men (and some women) that elevating women to roles of leadership (in the church and life) is not to take away from men, but rather to follow Christ’s example in equality. We can serve side by side, using our gifts that God has given each of us, not bound by some threat or fear to our own respective genders, but in true service. No one has to suffer for inclusion, and certainly no one should suffer the pain and frustration of exclusion! How we squelch the pervasive fear of so many, remains the BIG question. Fear is seemingly based in lack of knowledge and thus the answer may be in the continuing dilligence of CBE, etc., to keep plodding along with truth and courage. I applaud your efforts and continue to pray for your organization, along with the many people who need to hear and know the truth!

]]> By: molly http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2006/09/set-apartby-fear/comment-page-1/#comment-9202 molly Thu, 05 Oct 2006 20:59:31 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=84#comment-9202 Douglas, I really appreciate your points. It is so true that just as egalitarians are often resoundly misunderstood and stereotyped (which is annoying, at best), it would be to the egalitarian camp's advantage (I think) to take great pains to refrain from doing the same. The truth is, while some things are the same across the board, other variances in the patriarchy/complimentarian camps are massive. I think it will help promote conversation between the two camps when stereotyping is something we attempt to avoid. It is very difficult to speak against patriarchy/complimentarianism without generalizing, of course, or without giving a zillion disclaimers (at which point one begins wondering if it's even worth trying to say ANYthing-lol), but at the same time, our discussions ought to be full of the very mutual respect and submission that is being advocated, including towards the camps that we differ with. It's a worthy goal, anyway. :) Douglas, I really appreciate your points. It is so true that just as egalitarians are often resoundly misunderstood and stereotyped (which is annoying, at best), it would be to the egalitarian camp’s advantage (I think) to take great pains to refrain from doing the same.

The truth is, while some things are the same across the board, other variances in the patriarchy/complimentarian camps are massive. I think it will help promote conversation between the two camps when stereotyping is something we attempt to avoid.

It is very difficult to speak against patriarchy/complimentarianism without generalizing, of course, or without giving a zillion disclaimers (at which point one begins wondering if it’s even worth trying to say ANYthing-lol), but at the same time, our discussions ought to be full of the very mutual respect and submission that is being advocated, including towards the camps that we differ with. It’s a worthy goal, anyway. :)

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