The CBE Scroll

Comment by Psalmist in Texas

September 6, 2006 @ 1:02 pm

Part of the problem is the reaction of some Christians when this is reported. A recent article on the difficulty women pastors face in moving to larger congregations, gave rise to some interesting reactions online. One was a common deflection: “That’s the problem; these women just want a bigger church. Whatever happened to be content where you are?” Others said it was proof that they weren’t supposed to be pastors in the first place, or that the staff positions that are more common for women in their first pastorates, are a more “natural” fit for women.

The good news is, in some denominations, it is getting more and more common for people not to automatically picture a man when they think of “pastor.” As a United Methodist, it’s easier for us than for most, because our pastors are appointed; churches have to be particularly adamant about NOT accepting women, for that to be off the table come appointment-making time. It still happens, too often (especially here in the “Bible Belt”). But as more churches are served by women senior pastors, and more of the largest churches have more than a “token” female associate pastor, attitudes are changing. Most churches seem to realize, once women are appointed/called as their pastors, that their apprehension was much ado about nothing. They realize that the most important thing is that their pastor serve faithfully, not the pastor’s gender. It will take time. I think, however, that our grandchildren will wonder what all the fuss was about, as they are served by the best PASTOR, rather than the best MAN, for their churches.

Comment by PS

September 6, 2006 @ 2:26 pm

The only person who needs to be consulted about who should pastor a church is God. Certainly not the senior pastor; this isn’t an inherited position!

Our experience is quite the opposite from that stated above.

Comment by Janet Macor

September 7, 2006 @ 6:45 pm

**My comments will draw from sound ideas I have found in Del Birkey’s The Fall of Patriarchy: Its Broken Legacy Judged by Jesus and the Apostolic House Church Communities and the Simple Church network movement in North America, along with my own journey through 7 denominational churches, of which God called me out of all of them.**

Perhaps the reason women who are called to pastor and or pastor/teach are not experiencing acceptance is because they are trying to enter into a unScriptural model of Christian Community. The denominational distinctive/ theological systems model in which patriarchy is practiced (going back to Constantine) is perhaps not the right way for women to now enter into the roles God has called them to.

I am wondering if we would see a greater movement of women into pastoral service (not “ordained positions by men in hierarchical churches) if women who have been given the call by God to pastor and or pastor/teach started home churches?

Perhaps God prevents women from entering these patriarchal models because he has something far greater in vision and scope for the many women He is calling into service.

Just a thought (and a prayer )

Comment by Lori

September 8, 2006 @ 2:36 pm

Janet, I think you raise a very good point. I have heard that the vast majority of missionaries are women, which was certainly my experience when I served with YWAM. I also saw women serving with great freedom, such as leading mission trips to the most remote places you could imagine. I greatly admire women who try to challenge the system by choosing to become a pastor. However, I think we will have a greater impact for the Kingdom by serving outside of the church rather than by trying to conquer the patriarchal structure within it.

Comment by Craighton

September 8, 2006 @ 6:48 pm

It’s only natural that professionals want to “move up” the responsibility/reward ladder because it is one of the few ways to know that your work is not only good, but really good. A fatter paycheck says loud and clearly and much more truly than all the pats on the back and “thank you, pastors,” although it’s nice to have both. How galling to have some physical factor like skin color or gender to hinder or prevent the normal exercise of talent and God’s call of top ability.

Women, however, have difficulty at all levels: of getting into seminary, of getting that first appointment, of getting later appointments. Here is a letter I received since I posted that speaks for many women who have been called to the ministry. Perhaps some of our members could provide struggling stories and other thoughts to provide some encouragement here.

Hello,

I am writing not to be whining but didn’t know who else to write for a word of encouragement. I am fighting back tears, despondency, depression and a simple “Where are you God?”

For several years now, I have searched the internet, networked etc., looking for Ministerial positions, have sent resumes, have phone called etc., to see if any door would open for me to Pastor/Associate
Pastor/Christian ED Pastor/Singles Pastor/Women’s Pastor/Spiritual Formation Pastor/ Church Plant etc., and have been turned down repeatedly. Even was interviewed by a Baptist Search Chairman and told when the interview was over that he never would have hired me anyway but just wanted to see what a woman minister looked like….

Have been yelled at, had backs turned to me, have been ignored, have been instructed “don’t I know my place,” have had a man tell me that I was out of line and move to another seat at the lunch counter… and the stories go on and on…. I’m sure you have heard them — I’m not alone but it sure feels like it right now.

I am tired. I love the Lord. I am called by Him, people are drawn to me to minister to them, but so far not a door has opened to minister other than one on one in a very long time. The inward compelling of
God to serve Him doesn’t ever leave me. I wake up at night preaching sermons and teaching my cat. Found a Uganda, Africa, Pastor who said it didn’t matter to him if I was a woman — that he knew I was called by God and that I could come minister there with him, but do not have the monies to go…. The local churches only want to support the local missions, and give their “missions” dollars to men ministers
who are affiliated with them.

Well-meaning people tell me that the “giftings of God will promote me.” For that to happen you must have an opportunity for those giftings to be heard/seen/experienced. No openings.

So, I’m tired. Forgive me for my despondency… but I’m ever so tired of looking. Sometimes I wish God hadn’t called me… wish the inward compassion for the lost, for His hurting people would go away and I
could pursue a secular career/money like the rest of the world. BUT it doesn’t go away so I keep searching, praying, networking and believing that He is God even in this world and that He will open the
doors. At times people tell me that perhaps it isn’t God’s timing — that is hard for me to believe when all the signs point to a soon coming of our King and the desire to minister to serve Him and His people never leaves… only grows stronger inside of me year by year.

Have ministered in the local “crack” house but found I was not safe — long story here… but also have to pay my bills… so find I am searching now for secular work and yes, I know about ministering in
the workplace… been told to do that too… and of course I do as God leads and not on an employer’s time. But it still isn’t what God has called me to.

I know in my heart I won’t quit searching for where He wants me. I won’t quit. Just wanted to cry for a minute. Thanks for listening. All I ask is that you would pray for me if God puts it on your heart.

In His Service in my heart,
Pastor Joanie [not her real name]

Comment by Janet Macor

September 10, 2006 @ 3:17 pm

Hi Lori,

I don’t consider missionary work, or when I was referring to pastoring within home gatherings of the church, as “outside of the church.” In fact, I think it is the real church.

Comment by Janet Macor

September 10, 2006 @ 3:37 pm

Dear Craighton and Joanie who pastors,

I don’t believe pastoring in the institutionalized Church structure with pay is Scriptural. Moving up in a Church with a larger paycheque, and a pat on the back, isn’t Scriptural. In fact Jesus was quite clear — a leader is a servant: do not use titles (pastor is a type of work, not a title), etc, etc (Matt 20).

Paul worked as a tent maker and also evangelized and taught. Phoebe was a deacon and also helped to support Paul and others financially to spread the word.

Our thinking is wrong — we have made Christianity into a secular format. I am only a believer 10 years and the things you describe in your posting I have experienced (and worse things) both as a believer and as an unbeliever. That should tell you something.

There is a time to walk away from these people. You don’t keep banging your head against a brick wall thinking things are going to change. This is a type of insanity. So to continue to fight in the institutionalized church environment and perhaps compromising to get a position is just wrong. I mean I understand; it seems to be a trait of women to do this. We keep trying to change people and situations in certain ways, because what we see is wrong and we think if we can just help them to see it, they will change; but they don’t. If we know what is right Scripturally, then we (and many others now) create what is right — away from what is not right.

A famous author of some books on Christian women once told me that it was okay to take a break from going to “church” until you find the church for you to attend. I couldn’t believe it — I had never thought that way. I had thought if you didn’t attend church every Sunday, then you were guilty of an offense, even if that church body was treating you badly. She opened my eyes to the possibility that you can still be in relationship with God and not be in a bad church situation. And in fact, as I have struggled to find a gathering of Christians to belong to in the last two years, by not being in an institutionalized church environment, I have grown closer to God, I pray more, I study my Bible more again. In the bad Church environment, it actually drew me away from God.

We are caught in the culture and God is calling us out of that culture. If we build a truly Scriptural way of life, people will be drawn to it — God will bless our efforts.

Comment by Kathryn

September 10, 2006 @ 9:58 pm

Re: comment # 7: I believe you have given us something to really think on. Thank you. Some egals have pointed out in these blogs the futility of adopting the world’s way of power for power’s sake. Certainly we should not seek “the praise of men”. Fellow egals, perhaps we should give thought to the idea that God may want at least some of us to move out of institutionalized church settings until we find the right body for us. Perhaps God does not want us to try to change patriarchal systems already in place from within. I’m not saying He doesn’t, only let’s at least entertain that thought. I hope we won’t dismiss her comments out of hand. God may have a word for us there.

Comment by Kathryn

September 10, 2006 @ 10:03 pm

I am not advocating we isolate ourselves from the world or from our respective denominations. I only suggest that maybe we should not limit God by thinking He can only use us in a denominational setting. It’s another way of saying let’s think outside the box.

Comment by Lori

September 13, 2006 @ 5:45 am

A few years ago in Sunday School, we got to discussing the issue of pride in the pulpit. I remember distinctly that my teacher said, “Today, too many men come out of seminary and aren’t content to labor away in smaller churches. No, they all dream of pastoring mega-churches, and who can blame them? I mean, let’s be honest. It’s the big-church pastors who get invited to make the speeches at denominational conferences. They’re the ones who write best-selling books and become rich and famous. Too many young pastors are willing to sell their souls for the glory, and the ones who lose out are their parishioners.”

So the issue of “wanting a bigger paycheck” is hardly unique to women. However, that does not make it a godly attitude. As Janet so excellently pointed out in comment # 7, a true pastor is a servant, not a demi-god. “Pastor” should not be a title, but simply a description.

There is a time to walk away from these people. You don’t keep banging your head against a brick wall thinking things are going to change. This is a type of insanity. So to continue to fight in the institutionalized church environment and perhaps compromising to get a position is just wrong.

Man, oh man, Janet, you said exactly what I was thinking! Thank you. Patriarchy has been enshrined in the institutionalized church since it’s founding. After Paul’s passing, the Church pretty much ignored what he taught and fell in with the surrounding culture. Do we think that we’re suddenly going to overturn that after only about 20 years of enlightened attitudes? Yes, the civil rights movement worked, but that was merely the end of a process that began at the beginning of the 19th century with William Wilbeforces’ efforts to end slavery. Many people would aruge that America’s racial wounds have not yet healed.

To expect comps., therefore, to suddenly throw up their hands anytime soon and say “Oh, we were wrong. We’ll completely change everything we’ve ever believed and allow women to minister in our churches” is, quite frankly, madness. As somebody pointed out in an excellent post on this blog, the comps. simply have too much invested in the status quo to ever give it up. If the American church ever does change in its attitudes to women, then it will probably take many generations to do so. In the meantime, attempts by individual women to overthrow the comp. power structure are pretty much useless. Revolutions don’t occur within the Establishment; instead, they occur when enough people outside of the power structure get together and decide “enough is enough.”