The CBE Scroll

Blog voices from Christians for Biblical Equality

Some People Just Don’t Get “Inclusive Language”

Filed under: Bible Versions, Biblical Interpretation — DP at 9:57 pm on Tuesday, October 24, 2006

Parableman points to a news item about Judge Robert Armstrong in California, who has ruled that a law against disrobing in front of a minor applies only to men and not to women, even though no mention of gender occurs in the law. How so? The law says “exposes his person.”

Like Parableman, I’m more than a bit mystified by this odd ruling. Does Judge Armstrong not know that English-speakers have been using masculine pronouns for gender-indeterminate or gender-unknown people for approximately forever? Has he not considered that the writers of that law were not thinking about the gender of the hypothetical ecdysiast at all?

Alas, Judge Armstrong would find many kindred spirits among a certain brand of evangelical Christian, where the masculine pronouns in such verses as “If a man desire the office of bishop, he desireth a good work” (1 Tim 3:1, KJV) are given their full force. In both cases, the issue is English grammar—King James’ “a man” renders the Greek tis, a relative pronoun that can be either masculine or feminine, and the verb “he desireth” renders Greek epithymei, a third person form that can be suitably rendered with either “he,” “she,” or even “it.” That is why better Bibles (NRSV, TNIV, etc.) avoid the confusion by not importing gender language into verses such as this where they do not exist in the original. Of course, there are other passages where the gender component is present in the Greek text. The requirement that a church leader be “the husband of one wife” (1 Tim 3:2) springs to mind. But does that mean Paul found it unthinkable that women might lead in the church?

Personally, I strongly suspect that Paul assumed that, by and large, the persons who assumed oversight in the churches would be male. But Paul assumed this based on the cultural norms of his day, and I’m convinced he was aware—and affirming—of certain exceptions. He commended Junia the apostle, for example, in Romans 16:7, and referred to Euodia and Syntyche as his “fellow laborers” (Phil 4:2-3), a term he most often used for those in the frontlines of his apostolic ministry. If most first-century church leaders ended up being male, it was not because that is what Paul demanded but because that was what the Greco-Roman culture would endure. Assuming Pauline authoriship of the Pastorals and the Prison Epistles, it is clear that Paul was willing to embrace the prevailing cultural norms insofar as they served in the short term to advance the cause of Christ (Eph 5:21–6:4; 1 Tim 2:1-2, Philemon, etc.).

An assumption, innocently made in light of prevailing social custom, does not a doctrine make.

71 Comments »

Comment by Kathryn

October 24, 2006 @ 10:26 pm

We can’t take everything literally. It looks as if the judge was so worried with the letter of the law that he overlooked the spirit of it, which was to protect children, not to address issues of gender. As you say, some folks have the same problem when interpreting Scripture. When saying “the husband of one wife,” it is easy to overlook the fact that polygamy was a common practice in the first century and that it was unnecessary to say “wife of one husband” because women probably did not have the option of “more than one.” It is also easy to overlook the abundance of evidence that women did lead the early church.

Comment by Richie

October 25, 2006 @ 2:48 am

Here we have an illustration of the so-called law of unintended effects. Now that English is being made more and more gender inclusive both in general conversation and writing, present English users of generation x and y are not able to properly understand English texts that were written before their time. They often - and normally - unintentionally read back into the English language of the previous centuries unwarranted assumptions of gender bias about the writers of it. I have witnessed this process time and again in my own history classes on almost a daily basis. In fact, it seems that this now even extends to some judges who are presumably not of those generations. “Ridiculous” it may be, but it is also a reality that will be witnessed with ever increasing frequency in the future. Thus, “better Bibles” such as the NRSV and TNIV will indeed help modern generations better understand the original intent of the Biblical writers, but they will also do so at the cost of helping cast unwarranted disparagement on previous English Bibles as well as the entire body of English literature of centuries past.

Comment by Jeremy Pierce

October 25, 2006 @ 5:02 am

It depends on what you mean by leading. In one sense, anyone serving through using spiritual gifts is leading, and I Timothy elsewhere assumes that older women will be teaching younger women. But it does say pretty explicitly that Paul did not allow women to teach or have authority over men. There are, of course, debates on how that should be taken, but its most obvious reading (and I would say most egalitarians recognize this, even if they import speculative historical reconstructions to resist it) is that the authoritative teaching of the leadership of whole congregations would be done by men or at least overseen by men. I don’t see how something grounded in the creation order (before the fall) could be merely a short-term concession to an evil culture, either.

Comment by Paula

October 25, 2006 @ 5:58 am

Phrases like “spirit of the law vs. the letter,” “straining out a gnat to swallow a camel,” and “can’t see the forest for the trees” come to mind when I read about “judges” like that and Christians like that. There is a fine balance between the letter and the meaning, and few people find it, secular or Christian.

It all ties in with the un-admitted conviction of many that women are just not fully human. Why people have been able to shake off the ’subhuman species’ idea in regards to skin color but not gender is beyond me. After all, it takes two humans to breed more humans, so why do they think one must be inferior? All I can conclude is that it boils down to pride, that time-dishonored plague. We might be able to cut a little slack to judges for being legalistic, since that is their job, but even they are supposed to temper it with humanity. How much more so are Christians, who are repeatedly taught the importance of love and mutual submission?

Comment by Jeremy Pierce

October 25, 2006 @ 9:28 am

Re: Comment #4
Complementarians insist that women are in their very nature equal with men but that God has declared some differences in spheres of ministry for some men (i.e. authority in marriage for husbands and authority in the church for elders). Trying to read that as seeing a woman as inhuman is not a healthy way to engage people who disagree with you in godly conversation about issues where godly scholars disagree.

Comment by Lainie Petersen

October 25, 2006 @ 2:17 pm

The notion that men and women are “equal” but have different “spheres” only makes sense if they are assuming equal roles within those spheres. But complementarians/patriarchalists don’t give men and women equal roles within their spheres. Women can lead women, but not men. Men can lead men and women. The corporate church (consisting of both men and women) is to be taught and ruled by men, women can only teach and rule women-only groups/organizations.
Ultimately this boils down to a different kind of humanity for men and women.

Comment by Julia

October 25, 2006 @ 2:25 pm

Re: Comment #2:
I agree that a loss of appreciation for our language’s heritage would be an incredible shame. However, it is also an incredible shame that people are being turned off to the gospel because of non-inclusive language. One of the most beautiful things about the English language is that it is a growing, evolving organism. By having multiple translations available, I am able to sense a powerful connection to Christian sisters and brothers across the ages when I read the KJV, I can bask in the beauty of the poetic language in the RSV, and I can share the truth of gender equality with my non-Christian friends with the TNIV.

I used to be adamantly against inclusive language translations. I knew that “men” meant “all people” in most cases throughout Scripture, and I felt that my intelligence was being insulted when I read more modern translations. However, I know several women who feel that Christianity is not for them because, according to them, it “male-dominated”, and I am positive that part of that perception comes from non-inclusive uses of language in the church.

As for me, my views on gender-inclusive translations have drastically changed. No matter how intelligent or history-savvy I am, something in me is powerfully stirred when I read “brothers and sisters” in place where I had originally read “brothers”. My “heart” language is English. Not necessarily the English of 100 years ago, or even of my grandparents. In 20 years my “heart” language may be drastically different then the vernacular used on the street. One does not invalidate the other.
I agree that we shouldn’t lose our heritage by chucking older translations of the Bible, but I believe that the church should become more open to viewing different translations as appropriate for different times and seasons.

Comment by LJR

October 25, 2006 @ 4:13 pm

Thank you, Lainie! I wish I could draw Venn diagrams for what you just said, and then challenge hierarchs to say that men and women “really are equal, just different.” Drawing pictures sometimes communicates the real issue in a way that written words don’t always do.

Of course, I know how that would end if I did. A while back on another forum, a hierarchal man tried the equal but different line by saying that men and women both had the Holy Spirit equally, but then said that men had part of the Holy Spirit that women did not. I drew up an HTML chart showing him what he said and why he contradicted himself. He understood the point; but instead of addressing the obvious contradiction, he decided to try to prove he was better at HTML. (*sigh* Whatever…)

If we’re “equal but different,” then why are women expected to hear and obey whatever the men in charge say (even when it’s wrong!), but the men must be carefully shielded from a woman’s words lest she teach them the truth of Scripture? It’s not like the truth of God becomes a lie when it escapes the lips of a creature with two X chromosomes.

Back to the inclusive language topic: Wasn’t it John Kohlenberger’s daughter who asked him why God loved boys better than girls? *checks Mutuality backcopies* Yes, it was. She read a non-inclusive Bible at her school, and she always read about God blessing or loving men who did this or that. She couldn’t see God writing anything good that was aimed at her, and it upset her. Maybe those of us who grew up on the King James are used to adapting non-inclusive language, but the younger generation doesn’t understand that. Why shut out half of them from what God has to say?

Comment by Paula

October 25, 2006 @ 4:57 pm

Re comment #5:

There were no comments posted at the time I sent mine in. I saw none of the ones above me when I wrote what I did, which was in response to the article and not anyone’s comments. You assumed wrongly. I see comment #6 has already addressed your argument anyway, the “equal worth but not equal authority” fallacy, so I just wanted to emphasize that one should not presume another’s motives before knowing all the facts.

Comment by Lori

October 26, 2006 @ 5:21 am

I’ve actually spoken about this issue over in my own blog, Anamchara Cafe. If it’s possible, I’d like to quote from my entry.

I remember a couple of years ago, I heard Wayne Grudem speak on Focus on the Family. He was talking about why the TNIV is such a bad translation and how we should all avoid it, primarily because of its gender-inclusive language. “I think that’s patronizing to women,” Grudem said. “When women read verses that say ‘brothers’ or ‘men’ they know that they’re included. They don’t need it spelled out for them.”

Really? If you’re a woman and you’ve been drilled in complementarian theology, will you know that Paul meant to say “men and women” in 2 Tim 2:2? [The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. "Men" is actually adelphoi, which is not gender-specific.] Or…will you assume that you’re excluded? Even if you’re not a complementarian woman, would you know to include women in that verse? Maybe or maybe not.

And I, too, would like to thank you, comment #6. I know that many women, including myself, have rejected the “separate but equal” argument being applied to us. Really, though, I think your description is the best way I’ve seen it put.

Comment by Leigh

October 26, 2006 @ 2:47 pm

Excellent comments, here. Particularly #6 and #10. I’ve had trouble explaining both situations to hierarchalists that I know, and your wording will help me. Thank you.

The way that “different but equal” struck me was a little different. It seemed to me that women, if we are automatically unfit to teach half the members of God’s kingdom, and if we always need to be “covered” by a man (first by our father, then elder, and husband)–we are apparently not *trusted* to build a personal relationship with our Savior, directly.

(Re-reading this, before I submit it, I note here that this would seem to inadvertently, perhaps, harken back to the idea that because of Eve’s deception, ALL women are easier to deceive than ALL men.)

Was Christ’s sacrifice not enough for women? For it seems that we are considered to receive a different sort of salvation than men receive. Something that is less complete.

Comment by Jeremy Pierce

October 26, 2006 @ 7:08 pm

Re: comment #9: My comment in #5 did not assume that you had seen my comment. I’m not sure why you think it did. I didn’t think what you said was a healthy way to discuss these issues given that godly people disagree on them. That’s all.

Re: comment #6: this language assumes things I don’t think are biblical attitudes. You seem to take full humanity as coming from the ability to do or not do certain things. It’s God’s declaration that we are to image him that makes us what we are, not some position we have. Our identity is grounded in his view of us, not in what we do.

Re: comment #8: Careful complementarians would never say that men have some part of the Holy Spirit that women don’t have. I think it’s important when discussing a view to consider the most careful version of the view. Otherwise you risk dismissing the view without having considered the best versions of it.
I’m not sure why you think women are special in being subject to the authority of elders. Aren’t men under the leadership of elders too? We also ought not obey everything our leaders tell us anyway. We are to evaluate what we are taught to see if it’s true.
It’s not fair to complementarianism to treat it as necessarily holding men and women to have different roles because of some incapacity in women. D.A. Carson and others argue that it’s based on a declaration of God to represent among humanity equality of the Father and Son alongside the Son’s submission to the Father.

Re: comment #11: It’s not “separate but equal”. This isn’t about giving women their separate congregations. It’s “different but equal”. Recent work in feminism has emphasized differences between men and women to affirm women as good rather than trying to make women be like men, as the Gloria Steinem generation of feminism did. It strikes me as contrary to the advances in feminism in the last couple decades if we start acting as if different means unequal.

I think my main worry about this general line of thought is that the same argument implies that Jesus is not fully God because the Father never submits to him.

Comment by Lainie Petersen

October 27, 2006 @ 8:33 am

Comment #12:
With all due respect, the “Gloria Steinem” generation of feminism did not try and “make women be like men”. In fact, second wave feminism was extremely nuanced, and ended up spawning cultural feminism and lesbian separatism, which asserted the superiority of women’s culture and values over male culture and values. The closest that second wave feminism came to making “women be like men” was via liberal feminism, which generally held that women should be able to be equal competitors with men in the public sphere. Liberal feminism was what caught on with the media, but was hardly representative of second wave feminism as a whole. For a well documented study on second wave radical feminism, I’d recommend “Daring to Be Bad” by Alice Echols. It is a wonderfully written book and a fun read.
As for the rest: Yes, both men and women have to submit to elders (in churches that have them), but in the complementarian/patriarchalists world, only men can be elders. A male church member submits to the elders because the church structure has put those elders in a position of authority. A female church member does the same, but there is the added aspect of the relationship supposedly modeling the “divine order” of male headship. No woman could ever hope to be an elder and have males and females submitting to her authority. There is a distinct difference in the pattern of authority/submission between the genders in this regard.
The “different but equal” distinction presents serious problems for the complementarian/patriarchalists, who defines the differences as (at least partially) the subordination of one gender to the other. The “equality” part is never well defined: Women are equal to men. . .how? If both divine order and “gender differences” render a woman unfit for leadership, how equal can she really be?

Comment by Jeremy Pierce

October 27, 2006 @ 10:23 am

I’m just using the language I see in feminist ethicists and epistemologists influenced by Carol Gilligan. Nel Noddings is probably the most influential of the ethicists in this tradition, and several philosophers have followed suit in epistemology now. They do treat the Second Wave as if they were trying to make men and women be equivalent, even if the Second Wave people may not have seen themselves doing that, and they see it as a very bad thing. All I’m saying is that complementarians are more like the Third Wave, and egalitarians are more like the Second Wave. You’re right that there are these outlying pursuits of radical feminism during the Second Wave, but I don’t see those as central or mainstream. What was most prominent was the idea of giving women positions in society just like those of men, including giving men and women equal roles in childrearing (and infant-feeding), wage earning, and so on. Any difference was perceived to be bad. There was to be no acknowledgement that biological differences could even possibly be more than merely differences in sex organs, and simply changing your child’s sex organs was supposed to be enough to make a boy into a girl (which time has shown to be very wrong).

Technically speaking, complementarians might allow for women elders in circumstances when all the men of sufficient maturity have been eliminated by persecution. Even if it’s God’s ideal, that doesn’t mean you find spiritually immature men to be elders when there are women who can lead in the meantime. This has happened throughout church history (and in fact egalitarians often point to it as evidence for egalitarianism.) It’s not an absolute prohibition, just a general guideline for normal circumstances when there are men to lead.

No woman could ever hope to be an elder and have males and females submitting to her authority.

If you mean adult males, then yes. There’s never any prohibition on females teaching males. It’s on women teaching men. This is a picky point, but I think it’s important in showing that this isn’t merely an inability for women ever to teach anyone male. It’s not about ability or inability. (It isn’t the only thing that points this way either, as I’ve explained above.)

Men and women are defined by God as being in God’s image, male and female. That is what gives us our identity. That is what makes men and women both fully human. God gave Adam a task to name the animals and to steward creation. He then created Eve and had Adam name her, signifying his authority in some sense over her as someone already declared to be an equal who is fully suitable to him in a way that no other animal was (and thus why the other animals aren’t human). So women are equal to men, and yet God has assigned some tasks to men or to some men that he has not assigned in general to women. Your argument against me has basically been that complementarians hold the second claim (which I admit is true), as if it shows the first one is false (which I don’t think it shows).

I never said women are unfit for leadership. I’ve already denied that, I believe several times.

Comment by Lori

October 28, 2006 @ 6:45 am

I have no idea about all this Second Wave and Third Wave stuff. However, I love what my professor of Women’s Literature said once. “I’m not a feminist, because I don’t hate men. I love my sons. However, I want society to recognize that women have traditionally been oppressed and that we need to redress that imbalance.” Sounds good to me.

Technically speaking, complementarians might allow for women elders in circumstances when all the men of sufficient maturity have been eliminated by persecution.

Technically, wouldn’t that make women inferior? I mean, if my boss at work said, “Well, I was going to have John do this task because he was the ideal person, but now he’s gone so I guess I’ll have to use you, Lolly” what would that say about me? How would that make me feel?

He then created Eve and had Adam name her, signifying his authority in some sense over her as someone already declared to be an equal who is fully suitable to him in a way that no other animal was (and thus why the other animals aren’t human).

I have heard countless complementarians say this in various forums. And when I ask them what are the exact words of the Bible that say Adam had authority over Eve, not a single one of them has been able to aswer that question. It’s always “Well, Adam did this…so that must mean…” In other words, it’s an inference drawn from the text, not what the text itself says. If that’s the opinion some people want to hold, fine. People can have different opinions about what a text means. However, an opinion or an inference is not a fact.

So women are equal to men, and yet God has assigned some tasks to men or to some men that he has not assigned in general to women.

What was Adam’s task? I mean, he named the animals before Eve came along. So after Eve was created, what was his assigned task? And other than leading a church, what tasks do modern men have to do? Modern women?

Comment by Cheryl

October 29, 2006 @ 6:21 pm

Regarding comment #14:

“If you mean adult males, then yes. There’s never any prohibition on females teaching males. It’s on women teaching men.”

I had this dicussion with a complementarian Pastor a week ago. He very clearly verbalized the end result of the above statement.

1. I asked him if there was a law that forbid godly women from teaching correct biblical doctrine to men and he said yes. (Yet every law of God comes from God alone and is never put into the words of a man saying “I do not allow”. God’s laws are clear, understandable, enforceable and they always have a second or third witness because God’s laws are always repeated in scripture.)

2. I asked him if disobeying that “law” is sinning against God and he answered yes.

3. I asked him if I teach the bible to men and then do not repent of this sin before I die will I go to hell. He said yes.

These three questions are basic. The answers that were given to me are the logical outcome of stating that God forbids (has a prohibition against) women teaching the Bible to men. I am glad that this Pastor was honest with me and expressed his heart. I also know that it greatly bothered him to admit to me that I am a mere heart beat away from hell. Think about this… a godly Christian woman who loves Jesus with all her heart is going to go to hell for teaching correct biblical doctrine to men unless she repents of using her God-given gifts for the benefit of men. Complementarians who are willing to think this through should in some way be able to see the outcome of this thinking. It causes divisions with dear brothers in Christ separating themselves from women who teach the Bible to men. Christians separating from other Christians over correct biblical doctrine… does this seem to anyone else other than me to be a scheme of the evil one?

Comment by Paula

October 30, 2006 @ 5:29 am

Excellent comments above, which further enforce the truth that complementarians consider half the human race, by virture of genetics alone, to be spiritually inferior and therefore less human. Yes, one follows the other, since our spirituality is what makes us what we are, what makes us more than animals. This spiritual inequality is based entirely on physical attributes by the complementarians own definition. It is therefore no different from racial discrimination, and as most egalitarians know, the same arguments that had been used by Christians to justify slavery are still used to justify the suppression of Christian women.

Contrary to complementarian belief, it may well be that God is using many men as the alleged “second choice” since they won’t let the women exercise their God-given gifts. I truly pity them for the loss of rewards that awaits them for this great sin against their spiritual equals.

If anyone is interested, I made a summary/comment on Groothuis’ book “Good News for Women” at This Link. The book covers all the standard complementarian logic, some of which we’ve seen here.

Comment by Kathryn

October 30, 2006 @ 2:33 pm

Re: comment # 16: Cheryl, your patriarchal pastor friend sounds as if he needs a good dose of godly doctrine himself. Of all the mixed-up reasons given for anyone going to hell, women teaching godly doctrine to men has got to be in the top 2! Yes there is a hell, but the only reason for going there is that people rejected Jesus as their Savior. Please remind him of that the next time you see him. He has added something to the plan of salvation, and that could cost him dear. Is he sure of his salvation, based on grace-through-faith in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8,9)? Separating Christians over correct Biblical doctrine is indeed a strategy of the enemy. It’s nothing more than divide-and-conquer.

Comment by Lainie Petersen

October 30, 2006 @ 3:52 pm

*grumble, grumble*

Since when is feminism about hating men?

*grumble, grumble*

Comment by Cheryl

October 30, 2006 @ 6:12 pm

Re:Comment #18

Yes, I agree with you that separating Christians over correct biblical doctrine is a divide-and-conquer strategy of the enemy. This is what complementarians need to think through. If we cannot come to a consensus, then I can agree to disagree with them, but it is almost impossible for a complementarian to agree to disagree with me if they believe that women are blatantly disobeying a law of God. An interesting note is that I got an email from this Pastor today and he called me his sister (in Christ). I marvel at how he must disconnect in order to call me his sister. How is there Christian fellowship with one who is on their way to hell? Perhaps he thinks that perhaps I will find a way to repent of teaching the bible to men before I die? I pray that the fact that he admitted this belief to my face will cause him some sleepless nights. I pray that he becomes so bothered by the thought of a sister in Christ going to hell that he will open his heart to rethink his complementarian view.

Comment by Jeremy Pierce

October 30, 2006 @ 7:55 pm

#15: If complementarians said that women are not as good but can sometimes be used as elders when there aren’t men, then it would amount to a kind of inequality of ability, yes. Of course, that’s not what I said. What I said is that God has declared men to represent a particular thing and women to represent a different thing, and this is not because of innate ability. When there aren’t men available who are sufficiently mature, it makes sense to consider these more like rules of thumb, but it’s ideal to go with how God set things up. It’s unfair to represent that view as saying that women can be elders as less ideal candidates, because that’s not the reason.

As for the interpretation of Adam’s naming, I did not ever say that you’re not free to hold your own opinion. I think the implications of that naming are clear given what God says when Adam names the animals, and I explained what I think those implications are. I did not argue for that interpretation. I simply presented it as the complementarian view. Arguing for it would take a long post and not just the short kind of comment this forum encourages. I was simply presenting what the view is so that it would not be misrepresented, because I keep seeing complementarianism misrepresented here. I’m just setting the record straight, not arguing for the view.

And other than leading a church, what tasks do modern men have to do? Modern women?

The only ones that are explicit in the biblical text are that the authoritative teaching/elder role is reserved for men, that the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church and the Father is the head of the Son, and that women are to submit to their husbands as their husbands love their lives the way Christ loved the church. Those who take complementarianism to go beyond those things (as Piper and Grudem do in their introduction to Recoveriong Biblical Manhood and Womanhood seem to me to be adding unbiblical elements to a view that I find largely biblical. I’m not sure if that’s what you were getting at, but it’s what I think is the correct answer.

#16: You have to get into why Paul did not allow it. In fact, he tells us. It’s in part because Adam was created first, something that cannot be tied to some particular context in Ephesus that Timothy was dealing with. Given the male headship in Ephesians 5, Colossians 3, I Peter 2, and I Corinthians 11, which also find their grounding in the creation order, I can’t see why this counts as something that doesn’t have additional witnesses.

I don’t know anything about the guy you were talking with except that he has a grasp of the gospel that sounds to me as if it’s verging on heresy. I also think separating on these grounds is immoral. If I found myself in a congregation where women preached, I would submit to the eldership on that issue unless I saw a genuinely grievous problem. I’ve been a part of campus ministries with women teaching men. I think this is an important issue, but it’s not on that level.

It’s worth pointing out that complementarians have several views on how to take “teach and have authority over a man”. I take it as the authoritative teaching of the church, i.e. something that is both teaching and authoritative, whereas teaching that isn’t authoritative, e.g. the NT gift of prophecy, which has to be evaluated, is not subject to this restriction (and Paul doesn’t so restrict it). Others take it to be any teaching. Complementarians do not always go so far, and I don’t, and I don’t think the Greek grammar really allows that either.

#17:
This spiritual inequality is based entirely on physical attributes by the complementarians own definition.

No, it’s not. It’s based entirely on the declaration of God and not at all on anything about the people in question.

By the way, the Groothuis argument crucially relies on a fallacy in modal logic (a kind of logic in philosophy that has to do with possibility and necessity). She confuses a property’s being essential to something (which has to do being true at all possible moments in all possible worlds) with a property’s being always true of something (which just has to do with being true at all actual moments in the actual world). I’ve argued this point at greater length here. It isn’t accurate to say something is part of something’s very nature unless it’s an essential property, and you have to show more than that it’s always true to show that.

Comment by Craighton

October 31, 2006 @ 4:48 am

I think we all should be careful about saying any Christian is going to Hell. It’s a matter not only of simple courtesy but simple humility. When people are overconfident about their powers of logic, it’s amazing how certain and happy they can be about the horrid places their logic has taken them. If logic were the only requirement for faith, there would probably be less (not just one, but less) theologies and philosophies in this world. We all bring suppositions to our arguments (both complementarians and egalitarians, certainly), and fortunately, we also have to all allow for the work and unpredictable activity of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

The process of becoming an egalitarian for most of us, I think, is quite a bit like conversion. Logic may or may not play a part, but the bright light of rightness and joy of the paradigm shift makes changes not only in belief but in behavior. I think many men will never change their patriarchal view of the world because they just don’t get it. They get sidetracked down paths of logic or literalism or comfort. And they won’t see it until they can see the utter horror and degradation of it through the eyes of someone they love who it hurts.

How ironic that Paul, who spoke more of freedom in Christ (and from the law) than any other biblical writer, is being used to bind women back to “The Law.” He would be horrified that his words are being logicized into such purposes. Many women who experience the freedom from sin that Christian conversion brings, also rapidly experience the chains of the church. No wonder that the latter would cause them to question the former.

If patriarchy is a result of the Fall as egalitarians claim, then patriarchs are sinning when they force gender chains on women. So both sides of this controversy think the other side is sinning. That’s an awful lot of Christians going to Hell, one way or another, if we all go down that condemnatory path.

Peace, my friends. And humility.

Comment by Lori

October 31, 2006 @ 4:54 am

When there aren’t men available who are sufficiently mature, it makes sense to consider these more like rules of thumb, but it’s ideal to go with how God set things up. It’s unfair to represent that view as saying that women can be elders as less ideal candidates, because that’s not the reason.“X, we want you to be our pastor. God has revealed to us that you’re the ideal candidate.”
X declines the offer.
“Oh. I guess we’ll have to use Lolly, then.”
So God’s ideal was to use X, but because they have to make do with me instead, that means I’m not a less-than-ideal candidate, even though I’m not the ideal. I am totally confused.
The only ones that are explicit in the biblical text are that the authoritative teaching/elder role is reserved for men,
Since there was no church in the garden of Eden, then obviously this wasn’t Adam’s task. Unless he was teaching Eve? The Bible does say that God only told Adam about the Tree of Knowledge. In turn, Adam would have had to teach Eve about it. Unfortunately, it seems that he was a pretty lousy teacher. When the serpent arrived and Eve had to actually apply her knowledge, she screwed up and got her facts wrong.
Was Adam supposed to be the head of Eve? Because again, he really sets a lousy example of being the spiritual head of a household. Not only did he stand by and listen to Eve misrepresent what God had told him (the Bible says Adam was with Eve when she talked to the serpent), he didn’t do anything to the serpent. In other words, he didn’t protect his house from the Enemy. Just out of curiosity, are there any biblical men who lived the complementarian ideal of being the benign head of the household? Since Paul was single, then of course he couldn’t have practiced what he preached.
And speaking of teaching, here’s another knotty problem for which I have yet to hear a good answer.

9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. 11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing–if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
(TNIV)

Paul suddenly changes from the plural to the singular in vs. 12. So who’s “a woman”? If Paul had meant all women for all time, then why didn’t he stick with the plural?
that the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church and the Father is the head of the Son,
I’ll tackle the Corinthians part.

3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

First, are we talking about the eternal subordination of Christ to the Father? Is Christ still subordinate at this moment? Because, according to this article by Kevin Giles, that doctrine has been specifically rejected by the Church for most of its history.
Or is the subordination of women based on the fact that Christ submitted to His Father while He was on earth? If so, then I find it interesting that Paul uses the present tense here. “the head of Christ is God.” I also find it interesting that if this verse is supposed to represent a hierarchy, then God is at the bottom.
And of course we’re back to the women. “The woman.” The NAS renders this “a woman.” So who is the/a woman? All women? All wives? Which men are the head of which women? If it’s husbands over wives, then why does Paul suddenly talk about marriage in a chapter addressing worship in the corporate church? And why doesn’t Paul say “every woman” just like he does “every man”? Why the switch?
#16: You have to get into why Paul did not allow it. In fact, he tells us. It’s in part because Adam was created first,So God decided to create two genders, and arbitrarily decided to make one of those genders subordinate to the other based on the fact that He created one of them first. I can see why many women wouldn’t want to love a God like this. I wouldn’t.
And what’s the other part? What’s the other reason why God decided He needed to make one gender subordinate to the other?
I’ve been a part of campus ministries with women teaching men.
I take it, then, that you have no problem with Eph 5: 22,

and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.

I take it as the authoritative teaching of the church, i.e. something that is both teaching and authoritative, whereas teaching that isn’t authoritative, e.g. the NT gift of prophecy, which has to be evaluated, is not subject to this restriction (and Paul doesn’t so restrict it).
Are we never to evaluate the teachings of the church? Here in Britain, a “health and wealth” televangelist is getting ready to build a mega-church down in London. Because he is a man, does that make his teaching authoritative?
This spiritual inequality is based entirely on physical attributes by the complementarians own definition.
No, it’s not. It’s based entirely on the declaration of God and not at all on anything about the people in question.
So again, before the world was created, God decided to create two genders, and for reasons known only to Himself, decided to make one of them subordinate to the other. That’s it. No reason is given, only that the subordinate half has to obey. If this is how God had been presented to me while I was growing up, I would probably not be a Christian now.

Comment by Paula

October 31, 2006 @ 5:59 am

Re #21
This spiritual inequality is based entirely on physical attributes by the complementarians own definition.
No, it’s not. It’s based entirely on the declaration of God and not at all on anything about the people in question.
You seem to be reading the responses by me and others, but not grasping what we’re saying, or what “physical attributes” are. Skin color is a physical attribute, is it not? Likewise, gender is a physical attribute. Biblically, unless you’re a Jew, neither ethnic heritage nor gender is a factor at all in God’s kingdom. Only by ignoring context can any support be found for women’s subordination in the church, along with inconsistent application. After all, in one breath Paul said “neither slave nor free, Jew nor Gentile, male nor female” in Christ. To pick only one item out of that list is certainly inconsistent, and it ignores both the immediate context and the bulk of NT writings about women and about MUTUAL submission among all believers. Simply repeating “no it’s not” is the only argument I’ve seen from complementarans on these issues, not any refutation of egalitarian exegesis.
By the way, the Groothuis argument crucially relies on a fallacy in modal logic (a kind of logic in philosophy that has to do with possibility and necessity). She confuses a property’s being essential to something (which has to do being true at all possible moments in all possible worlds) with a property’s being always true of something (which just has to do with being true at all actual moments in the actual world).
You sound like a Calvinist. I’ve gone a few rounds with them, and they elevate man’s logic to the point where the plain meaning of scripture is lost on them. The “possible worlds” view is a manmade construct, a theory, not scripture. Logically, it can be argued (as the Calvinists do) that “libertarian free will” is impossible, yet there it plainly is in the Bible.
We’re not talking about “all possible worlds” here, we’re talking about this world, the one the Bible addresses. What Groothuis argues is sound: that worth and permanent position cannot be separated. The “possible worlds” theory addresses what COULD happen in the future, not what HAS or DOES happen, and really doesn’t apply to Groothuis’ argument at all.
The fact remains that basing one’s spiritual standing with a genetic quality is a declaration of subhuman status. There is no difference between saying all women are spiritually subordinate to all men, than there is in saying all Gentiles are spiritually subordinated to all Jews. That was the case in the OT but that “middle wall” was torn down by Jesus– Jesus who taught us not to “lord it over” each other but to serve.
Christian men are the ones “lording it over” others, both men and women. Some men have elevated themselves to a “clergy class” over other “laymen”. The absurdity of comp thought would put a newborn male believer in a teaching position before ever putting a seasoned female theologian in that same position. This is unconscionable, and comps should be ashamed of themselves.
It isn’t accurate to say something is part of something’s very nature unless it’s an essential property, and you have to show more than that it’s always true to show that.
 Women cannot change the “essence” of their gender, can they. How else do you tell men from women? Something mental or spiritual? No, it’s purely physical. A slave can be freed; an employee can rise in rank; but a women has no options. It is a matter of nature, of physical essence.

Comment by Ryan

October 31, 2006 @ 7:01 am

Just a quick comment on Jeremy’s post above:
I did read your linked article in its entirety and I know when I am in over my head in terms of logical understanding, but I think while you argument has solid constructs it ignores some fundamental things. The main one being the fact that whatever the “position” intellectually that complementarians may be holding, and the variations of (1,2,3) were informative, you have a practice that ultimately leads to not simply a subordination via roles, but an essential subordination. So while Groothius’ point may falsely intimate subordination where you argue simply role separation, the fact is we actually behave this way. This is why the civil righs movement in the US would not accept the “separate but equal” argument being presented. While it may be true as an argument (it has logical consistency), it is not how we live as humans. You may be able to win the argument, but you end up with behavior that is not true of the position that is being proposed. Jesus’ point about wisdom being proved right by her deeds would be my appeal even while we can have this discussion.
By the way I do appreciate reading from people who are “smarter” than me and I found your post engaging.
sincerely

Comment by Jeremy Pierce

October 31, 2006 @ 7:36 am

#20: If his problem has to do with his views on sin and hell, I sure hope he doesn’t confuse that with complementarianism and thus give up on complementarianism over this issue. That would leave him still believing some really bad theology about the basic gospel message. I think you’re praying for the wrong thing. His priorities are way off. The suggestion that complementarianism is causing his problem seems to me to have a similar imbalance in priorities, even if it’s not as extreme as his (because he, after all, is verging on outright heresy).

Comment by Lainie Petersen

October 31, 2006 @ 7:39 am

Re: Comment #16

Cheryl,

This is a very strange situation that you have run into with your Pastor. Do you feel comfortable enough with him to call him on this inconsistency?

I know that it can be very hard to give up on one’s beliefs, even when one is confronted with a reality that contradicts them. It sounds like your pastor has his head in the sand: He knows that you are a godly woman who would offer good teaching to your church. His beliefs about women teaching as “sin” butt against what he knows to be true of you. He needs to be helped to understand how his own beliefs about women teaching has caused him to behave inconsistently.

Comment by Paula

October 31, 2006 @ 8:44 am

My previous comment was formatted, but I must have forgotten an end tag or something. Sorry for the poor readability.

Comment by Cheryl

October 31, 2006 @ 7:02 pm

Lainie,
This Pastor is a very dear man who is not my pastor but is a pastor who agreed to review my DVD series “Women in Ministry, Silenced or Set Free?” The problem was that, although he was very impressed with my work done on the series (he said I did a magnificent job of presenting my case), and even though he has not been able to answer *any* of the exegesis in the series, and the questions that he asked me from issues outside the hard passages of scripture have all been answered by me, he is still struggling with his long-held traditions including allowing any woman to be a pastor.

I asked him if a woman would be able to be a pastor if she was not allowed to teach men. He said “no” and I have to agree. Pastors are required to be able to teach so if a woman cannot teach men, she certainly cannot be a Pastor to men and women. Okay, so there is one point of agreement between us.

The bottom line it all comes down to whether a woman can teach the bible to men. If one says that there is a “law” that forbids women from teaching men, then there can be no allowance for women to teach men at all. Staunch complementarians say that men can not allow a woman to do something that God forbids women from doing. So once you take the position that God has a “law” that forbids women from teaching men, you must also say that if a woman disobeys this “law” then she is sinning against God. From that point it follows that if a woman is sinning against God’s law willfully and without repenting, you are left with 1 John 2:4; 3:4, 8

1 John 2:4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
1 John 3:8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

This is where this pastor’s doctrine forced him to admit that if I died without repenting of teaching correct biblical doctrine to men that I would go to hell.
Praise the Lord that this precious pastor is still allowing me work through this matter with him. That is a good sign. I think it was a jolt for him to admit to me face to face that I was one breath away from an eternity in hell for having an apologetic ministry where I teach correct biblical doctrine to men and I refuse to discriminate against my brothers in Christ and kick them out of my bible studies.

So is there a law that forbids women from teaching the bible to men? I took the position of this pastor as well as the position of some churches and one particular cult group and I presented the case against there being a “law” against women in a talk that I gave before a convention of former Jehovah’s Witnesses. I have the audio on line at
http://mmoutreach.org/audio_jw.htm The talk is called “Jehovah’s Women on Trial”. In this presentation are some of the answers I gave to this pastor, and up to this point he has not been able to answer any of my points from scripture.

I do care for this pastor and I am trusting that the Lord will break down his prejudices towards women. I think he is very uncomfortable with the fact that he cannot answer my exegesis or respond to the answers I gave him to his objections to women teaching the bible. He calls me “a loose end” that he has been unable to tie up. He obtained an additional 4 copies of the DVD set to give to other pastors as well as one well-known apologist in the hope that they will be able to help him refute me. Please pray for Pastor “C” that God will open his eyes and that this will be a road into a large denomination that forbids women to teach the bible to men in the church building or in their own home. These are dear brothers in Christ who have had their eyes blinded by tradition and if we are patient and love them in spite of our differences, perhaps God can use us to make a difference.

Comment by Kathryn

October 31, 2006 @ 9:00 pm

This pastor sounds as if he almost believes in a “gospel” of salvation by works: if you adhere to the “right” practices (in this case, women not teaching men), you will be saved. If he does, then no matter if he is patriarchal or egalitarian, he is believing a heresy.

Ephesians 2:8 says: For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works lest anyone should boast.

In John 14, Jesus says “I am the way, the truth and the life; no one cometh unto the Father but by me”.

The pastor may not believe in salvation by works, but he comes mighty close. Moreover, that “separate but equal” argument doesn’t resonate with me either.

Comment by Sue Diehl

November 1, 2006 @ 7:51 am

It’s interesting to read this discussion about the logic of both sides when it was my own need for logic that brought me to the place of being an egalitarian. It just does not make sense to think that God thinks in a complementarian way. Does God really possess such a passion for male dominance as complementarians would have us believe? Is it logical to think that when God looks at a hurting world that needs what He has to offer, He would sideline the gifts of over half of His people in order for men to maintain their dominance? Is it logical to think that God approves of the accomplishments of women in corporations, medicine, politics, and academics, but He doesn’t want to use the abilities of half the church to it’s fullest extent for His glory? Is it logical to think that when women answer their calling and accomplish great things in His name, God is not behind them because He wants men to rule? Is it logical to think that God’s attitude towards women who step out in faith to do His work is only one of tolerance rather than approval because He would have preferred that a man do it?

I also came to realize that in order for me to be a complementarian I would have to logically conclude that the Bible does not apply to women the same way it applies to men. For instance, when the Bible says to “be strong in the Lord” and to “put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes,” does that apply to women, or do women need to go through their husbands for their spiritual covering of protection? Is the protection of God equally available to women? Can women also do “all things through Christ who strengthens me,” or does God give His strength to men directly while women are supposed to find their strength through their husbands? When the book of James says, “If any of you lack wisdom, you should ask of God who gives generously to all without finding fault,” does that mean men can do that, but women still need to turn to their men for Godly wisdom? When women in the church are being taught that turning to their husbands for what should come from God is “following God’s design and plan for them,” is it not just as logical to conclude that this view of what husbands are to be is a form of idolatry?

The position of complementarians on the equality of the roles of women seems to defy all logic and comes across as double-talk. Complementarians say that women are equal to men; they just have different roles. So far so good. Few egalitarians would feel that position is always wrong. There are many times when husbands and wives may possibly assume equal but different roles. For instance, he fixes the cars; she does the laundry. He mows the lawn; she does the grocery shopping. He works outside the home to earn an income for the family; she works inside the home to care for the children. These are all equal but different roles.
That is not what complementarians are saying, though. They believe equal but different means: Men lead; women follow. Men teach; women learn. Men decide; women give in. Men initiate; women respond. Men get things done; women help them. You can’t inflict words like “subordination” and “subjection” on the role of women and then say “Women are equal.” You can’t. You just can’t! It is not logical!!!

I have one logical question that burns at me that I can’t shake. It’s obvious there are certain benefits to men when they maintain a complementarian position, but logically speaking, what’s in it for God? What does He gain from the complementarian point of view? How does He benefit when women stay in “their” place, and how does He lose when women become all He created them to be?

Comment by Jeremy Pierce

November 1, 2006 @ 8:16 am

Re: Comment #24:
I don’t know what possible world theory you’re talking about. I gave no theory about possible worlds. Groothuis uses the term, ‘essential property’, a technical term in philosophy that has a definition. She then says something about an essential property that is at great odds with what the word means. Her husband has a Ph.D. in philosophy and is very familiar with her argument, which means she has no excuse. Groothuis, I’m sure, admits that philosophical distinctions are an important way to clarify terms and avoid misunderstandings in disputes. That is exactly what I was trying to do by indicating what the term ‘essential property’ is and why Groothuis is misusing it. I’m not sure why you’re so resistant to the kind of clear thinking that philosophers engage in. Doug Groothuis, J.P. Moreland, William Lane Craigh, and a number of other Christian philosophers are rightly trying to overcome the kind of anti-intellectualism that opposes the use of philosophical clarifications in Christian thought, and I have a hard time seeing what you’re saying as a flat-out denial that what they recommend is worth doing.
I’ve never seen any biblical passage that says anything about libertarian free will. That view was first expressed by the Greek philosopher Epicurus. Some Christian theologians have thought that the view makes sense of scripture, and others have not. But either way the view is very clearly not stated anywhere in scripture. The issue of free will really wasn’t even around until the Hellenistic period of Greek philosophy, and the biblical authors speak of freedom from sin but not freedom from being caused to do something. I don’t see how Calvinism has anything to do with this issue anyway. That sounds like an ad hominem attack to me. Since it’s totally irrelevant to this discussion, it should not be part of it.
As for the issue at hand, to you and comment #24:
I am not simply saying “it’s not”. I’ve given a distinction between two things with careful definitions, and I’ve explained why what I’m saying is one thing and what you’re saying complementarians say is the other. That’s not simply saying “it’s not”. It’s giving an argument for the thesis that it’s not.
Now I still see you saying the same thing. You’re portraying complementarians as grounding the difference in gender roles in physical differences. That’s not where complementarians ground it, at least not all complementarians. The most plausible complementarian view seems to me to be D.A. Carson’s, which grounds the gender roles in a declaration of God. What enables us to identify which people are the ones who are women is physical differences. Sure. But that’s not what grounds the gender role differences on this view. The identification of them by us is epistemological. It’s about how we know something. The grounding issue is metaphysical. It’s about the nature of things. In this case, the nature of what determines the difference is not in the nature of men and women but in the nature of God and the declaration of God. So the argument against complementarianism that you’re giving confuses metaphysics and epistemology. How we identify something or someone and what makes something true about them can be very different things.
I’ll take your race issue as an example. What determines racial groups is largely social and historical forces. It’s true that we identify which people are in which groups by skin color, hair type,, bone structure and other physical features. But that’s not what makes the groups different racial groups. Racial groups are a result of a history of migration, isolated living circumstances, differential and often immoral treatment of one group by another, and eventually the formation of racial identities by members of those groups. It turns out that the most distinctive differences that allow us to differentiate races are surface differences, but that’s not what makes the groups different groups.
What I’m saying is that sex differences (i.e. biological differences between men and women) are the most obvious way to differentiate between men and women (although we’ve also got gender differences such as how we dress, how we wear our hear, and so on that aid in this when people conform to social norms). But complementarianism in what seems to me to be its most plausible form does not ground gender role differences in those characteristics. Neither social assignment of gender nor biological sexual difference is the basis of those role differences in scripture. It is just how people identify which people are in which group.

Comment by Paula

November 1, 2006 @ 10:18 am

Re #32:

Jeremy, you post something, I address it, then you deny you said it. I could take the time to prove that you did say those things but I’m not interested in trying to embarrass anyone.

You also keep trying to argue that gender is not what comps base their arguments on, yet you keep insisting that gender is the sole criterion on which half the church is restricted. This is doubletalk through and through. Which is it? Is gender the issue here or not?

I’m sorry, but there is no further point in trying to help you understand as long as you continue to contradict yourself.

Comment by Cheryl

November 1, 2006 @ 11:52 am

Regarding #32

Okay, way too many big words for me. I think we have some of our definitions way out of wack. We say that the woman was created to “help” the man, but we don’t let her help. Instead we want her to “support” the man by sitting back and just listening. But helping is just that - helping. So the woman says “I have the gift of teaching and I would like to help you teach men and women”. He says “No you can’t help.” Since she was created to “help” the man by ruling the earth just as he ruled the earth, then how does our definition of “help” suddenly get changed to a restriction instead of an equal ability to help with the task at hand? Hmmmm….I just don’t get it. Anyone else in this “I don’t get it” club?

Comment by Ryan

November 1, 2006 @ 11:43 pm

In regards to #31
I don’t want to answer “for” complementarians falsely, but if I understand the discussion correctly and fairly the position is based on the concept of order. That is, we see in the creation poem a sense of God making and creating and giving order to things. So humanity is given “rule” over the whole Earth. The mystery of divine order may elude us as to why. Similarly we don’t know “why” God is Trinitarian, but it is still established that God creates order. This also leads to the corollary that the result of sin, the curse, leads to oppression within this order, rather than mutual submission which would lead to a diverse roles but “equality of being” as we see illustrated in the Godhead. For those who read this who are complementarians you can please comment if I have answered Sue accurately.
This is not a position I agree with, but I think if we are going to have actual discussion that leads to mutual enlightenment we should know the positions others hold opposed to ours (mine?).

Comment by Kathryn

November 2, 2006 @ 11:56 pm

Re: comment # 31:
I loved your question about patriarchy: What does God get out of it? I believe I can answer that: A church body that limps along on one foot instead of running on two!
Re: comment # 34: your comment about “helping” was right on target.
Re: comment # 32: Jeremy, thank you for touching on issues of race. I’ve said this before, but it bears repeating: We had a system of apartheid in America up until the time I was growing up. You are the first advocate of patriarchy I’ve ever seen talk about race in these blogs. Arguments for racial segregation were predicated on the idea of “separate but equal”. It was separate all right, but not equal! Black people were treated like dogs by the ruling white class. I encourage you to read the stories of black people in that time. This was a fact of life in the 1950’s United States. There was a book written back in that time called Black Like Me by John Howard Griffin. Griffin, a white reporter, turned himself into a black man and traveled in the South. As a white man, he was treated like royalty; as a black man, he was treated like dirt. I caution you, the language is strong at times; nevertheless, I urge you to read it. Not to overstate things; I am a white person, and have never experienced racial bigotry, but I believe you will see that there are strong similarities between the arguments to uphold white authority, and the arguments to uphold male authority.

Comment by Alan

November 5, 2006 @ 1:32 pm

Re comment #32 (ad Jeremy)

This is a long and complex conversation, and I would like to enter it for this one posting, to try and clarify some issues, and also to make a point to Jeremy in his defense of “complementarian” theology (which I call “role-hierarchy” since mutual submission = biblical equality is also complementarian!). The point I want to make has to do with “essential property” in analytic metaphysics (i.e. the philosophy of being or natures which applies the tools of analytic philosophy to these issues). First of all, perhaps we should distinguish between sex and gender. Let’s say that “sex” is a physical attribute which some animals have, such as mammals like us. And let’s use the recent term “gender” to stand for a complex attribute that is beyond the physical or biological, although it is usually built upon it, and includes social properties and perhaps even spiritual ones (this latter point is important for role-hierarchy theology). So here is our question: is the subordination of woman to man in role-hierarchy theology an essential attribute of the woman? Here Jeremy is right: this is a metaphysical question, having to do with properties and natures of objects in the actual world. Of course, to exist in other “possible worlds” (which are sets of propositions, not real things) and be exactly the same thing (have the same nature) will require having the same essential properties — but this point is too distracting to pursue here and now.

OK, here comes the argument. Like Carson and other role-hierarchy theologians, Jeremy claims that the submission of woman to man in church and home is decreed by God, and that alone (not any physical attributes or human abilities) is sufficient for the moral claim that women ought to submit to men always and everywhere in church & home (at least in this life — it is open for the role-hierarchic Christian to believe this may not be true in our resurrected bodies). But he then goes on to claim that it is God’s decree, “not the nature of men and women but the nature of God” that grounds the submission of women to men. Here I think we need to think a bit deeper into the nature of God and creatures. For the will of the Creator God determines the “natures” that creatures have, right? Even if God decrees that some created things will develop within open systems, that too is part of God’ will, is it not? But this second point is not important, so let’s focus on the first one.

If God decrees that all women will submit to men in church and home (in the specified sense) then it sure looks to me like this is part of the spiritual nature of Womanhood as decreed by God. So it would seem to be essential to the spiritual vocation of being God’s Woman (that is, the kind of woman God wants all of you to be) that they submit to men in the specified manner, don’t you think? In other words, submission to men (as defined) is essential to the spiritual vocation of womanhood for role-hierarchy theology, at least in this life. It’s hard for me to see how this is not the case.

So is submission essential to the nature of “woman,” and authority to the nature of “man”? The bad-old, traditional view is that women are called by God to submit because they are *naturally inferior* in some way (Martin Luther and Thomas Aquinas held this view, for example). The new, revisionist theology now called “complementarian” (which dates to 1977 as far as I can discover) rejects the traditional theology of woman as inherently inferior. But it does move the argument to the level of gender, and the spiritual nature of godly womanhood (and manhood too, of course!). This notion is not grounded in biology, sociology, psychology or “abilities” which women or men have. Rather, it is essential to what we might call our “spiritual gender” understanding gender to go beyond biology or even social science. Women who do not properly submit to men, and men who do not properly take the right kind of authority over women in church and home, are not fulfilling their God-given gender-vocations. Submission and authority is essential to womanhood & manhood understood as created spiritual genders, so that humans who do not fulfill these roles are not only sinning against God, they are not “being” women and men, spiritually.

Such at least is my current analysis of this new theological viewpoint. Thus to say that women and men are “equal in nature” for role-hierarchy theology, this “equal nature” has to be merely biological, social, and psychological — they cannot mean spiritual equality understood as our spiritual gender-vocations before God (which is what I understand them to often mean by the terms “biblical manhood” and “biblical womanhood.”) At this level, men and women are NOT equal by “nature” (=essential gender-property at the spiritual level).

Comment by Marissa

November 6, 2006 @ 3:42 pm

For a fuller Biblical argument, see Alan Padgett’s, “What is Biblical Equality?” online at

http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/pdf_files/free_articles/PPWhatIsBiblical.pdf

Also,
Man and Woman at Creation: A Critique of Complementarian Interpretations, by Christiane Carlson-Thies
http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/free_articles/ManandWomanatCreation.pdf

Comment by Cheryl

November 7, 2006 @ 2:33 pm

With all of this talk of submission, we should at least grant that submission is not related to suppression of God’s gifts. In other words if a woman is gifted to teach, her submission to honoring her husband should not be a means to stop her from using her God-given gifts. My husband’s position as my head is “worked-out” by his sacrificing for me. He gives up his life for me in order to provide me every opportunity to use my gifts and in turn I honor him by serving him and stepping outside my comfort zone in service to the body of Christ because of his encouragement. In my shyness I have stepped back from using all of my gifts because of fear of man, but my husband has continually pushed me and prodded me to grow and mature. He has used his headship wisely for my good and my growth just as a physical head feeds the body.

True headship nourishes and encourages and lifts up the woman to be everything that she can be in Christ. True submission allows the head to nourish and sacrifice for her benefit. When my husband “works out” his headship in a godly way, it will always lift me up and never suppress or hold back my God-given gifts.

Comment by Jeremy Pierce

November 8, 2006 @ 7:26 pm

#37: One thing that’s right about your analysis is that the role distinctions would be a part of gender and not sex, but it wouldn’t be social roles determined by society but roles determined by God and not a part of the essential nature of women as a group of people or individual women. You’re also right that it would be a part of the correct way to live a godly life as a Christian for women. Where I would disagree is when you say that it would be an essential characteristic of the proper way to live a godly life as a woman. I don’t think that’s true, because God could have set things up differently with different characteristics to be the optional ones (besides basic morality) in terms of the ordering within creation. In fact, God could have reversed it exactly. So it’s not essential to morality, godliness, or women’s spirituality to have these roles.

Now maybe all you mean is that it’s essential to the exact system of ordering that God did provide with these role differences as a part. (I refuse to call them hierarchies, because that indicates a top and a bottom, which I think the biblical texts exactly deny.) But if that’s not saying very much. It’s like saying that my brown hair is essential to the actual way that I am. Of course it is. Even though I didn’t have to have brown hair, and I can even change it by dying, I can’t be the actual way I am right now without having brown hair. If silly things like that count as essential properties, then we’re using the term way too broadly. We’ve basically diluted essential properties to be equivalent with properties in general.

Comment by Paula

November 10, 2006 @ 1:45 pm

“But it wouldn’t be social roles determined by society but roles determined by God and not a part of the essential nature of women as a group of people or individual women.”

This is the crux of the problem, because it begs the question. The whole gender debate is on WHETHER the Bible ordains these subservient roles for women, NOT whether we should obey God. Throughout, the complementarian argument has been that God ordains this, and the egalitarian counter is that the Bible says no such thing.

So what egalitarians are saying is the God does NOT ordain women to a secondary status in any sphere. And the complementarians still cannot separate roles based on gender from making a statement about women’s essential nature. They are inseparable. There is no escaping the fact that if a group of people are restricted based on any kind of genetic marker, of which gender/sex is one (how else are women and men told apart?), then it is their “essential nature.”

Again, the issue is whether the Bible ordains that women, based solely on “body parts,” are restricted. Egalitarians say no, and back it up with scripture.

Comment by Jeremy Pierce

November 11, 2006 @ 8:49 am

Paula, as I’ve been saying all along, I’m not here to argue for complementarianism. That can’t be done very well in this sort of format. You need to read the careful scholarship for that, including the best academic commentaries on the relevant books. What I’m doing is presenting what the content of the complementarian view is and explaining how it’s been misrepresented here. I haven’t given any arguments for the positions I’m explaining. I’m just explaining what they are. Question-begging is when you offer an argument that assumes what it’s trying to prove. I haven’t tried to offer any argument, and I have no intention of doing so in this forum. I have not, therefore, begged any questions.

I do happen to think the complementarians have scripture on their side. The clear statements in scripture supporting complementarianism are many, and the only one supporting egalitarianism (Gal 3:28) is taken out of context to do so. The egalitarian has to play the reinterpretation game to get the obvious complementarian passages to come out meaning something that they don’t say, and while this sort of thing is sometimes legitimate (e.g. in the women not speaking passage in I Cor 14, which we know has to be contextualized because Paul allowed women to prophesy earlier in the book) I happen to think the best scholarship shows that egalitarian reconstructions of social settings that allow such reinterpretations are at best extremely speculative and beyond any careful use of the evidence. I’m not going to argue for that point here, because the most careful people writing on the issue will write hundreds of pages just on one passage, never mind on the others. Read William Mounce, Andreas Kostenberger, Thomas Schreiner, D.A. Carson, George W. Knight, Bruce Waltke, Peter O’Brien, Markus Barth, Doug Moo, Harold Hoehner. I’ve spent time reading many of them as well as egalitarian scholars such as Gordon Fee, David Garland, Andrew Lincoln, I. Howard Marshall, Philip Towner, Linda Bellville, F.F. Bruce, and so on. But biblical scholarship should be done by biblical scholars, and philosophy should be done by philosophers. I’m a philosopher, and the arguments I’ve been responding to have relied on philosophical fallacies.

What I have been doing is indicating that certain kinds of criticisms of complementarianism either misrepresent the view or rely on logical fallacies. The one you just repeated is one of the logical fallacies. A divine command view of something entails exactly that it does not rely on essential properties. This is a basic philosophical distinction. It confuses epistemology with metaphysics.

Comment by Paula

November 12, 2006 @ 8:07 am

(1) I have indeed done extensive reading of complementarian material. I could as easily tell you to go and read the egalitarian material, as it appears you haven’t.

(2) Whether the words you’ve been posting are your own arguments or someone else’s, the fact is that you are acting as the representative of complementarianism, and must therefore take responsibility for what you’re posting. We are not ignorant here; we all have read complementarian writings. You don’t need to enlighten us on their content.

(3) Again, whether it’s you or the group you are here to represent, there is question-begging going on. I know full well the definition of question-begging, and a few other fallacies as well.

(4) Of course you think the complementarians have “scripture on their side,” that’s why you are arguing in their favor. But you err greatly in stating that egalitarians have only one scripture (showing your unfamiliarity with egalitarian writings), and in asserting that we “play the reinterpretation game.” Please, finally make yourself read some egalitarian literature with the intent to comprehend. Make the effort to understand what you oppose.

(5) You’re a philosopher? You earlier admitted that Groothuis’ husband has a PhD in it, yet this expert has not uttered a word against her logic. Something to think about.

(6) We have in no way misrepresented complementarianism, or committed logical fallacies. I notice that even though you claim to be a philosopher, you offer not one proof to back up your premises.

(7) Repeating an error will never make it true. And nobody here has “confused epistemology with metaphysics” either.

(8) You still haven’t answered my basic premise: that God does not ordain women’s subordination. You keep trying to make it the conclusion of your argument. You hold it to be your axiom, your foundational ‘given,’ yet that is precisely the point under contention.

All we really want from complementarians is honest and consistent exegesis instead of ad hominem attacks on egalitarians. We won’t lie down and take continued attempts at patronizing. Complementarians have never been able to prove our exegesis faulty so they resort to various of the games you mentioned, including trying to make an issue of things that the complementarians themselves are guilty of.

Comment by Paula

November 12, 2006 @ 8:14 am

Hey egalitarians,

Maybe we can save ourselves a lot of time in the future by compiling a concise list of respected complementarians leaders, their views, and references to original material so nobody can accuse us of misrepresentation. We seem to waste a lot of time just establishing what complementarians actually believe, since many of them don’t know what their leaders are teaching.

If someone has already done this, perhaps we could have a link posted here.

Comment by Jeremy Pierce

November 13, 2006 @ 1:55 pm

I never said you didn’t read anything. I said that I would direct you to serious scholarship if you want a complementarian position on issues that require reading serious scholarship. You sounded as if you were asking for that. They have done what I can’t do in a blog comment section, because it requires doing the detailed exegesis best done in an academic commentary or an academic paper by someone who is trained in exegetical work in the original languages. I’ve found that even when these scholars try to discuss these issues on their blogs (e.g. Kostenberger and Witherington had a little exchange not to long ago), they do not get into the necessary detail that I consider to represent the kind of scholarship they publish in peer-reviewed forums.

As I said before, there is no such thing as question-begging when there is no attempt to argue something. Question-begging is when you think you’ve given an argument but you’ve relied on something the other side doesn’t assume, and thus you haven’t argued for it at all. Defending against an objection is not question-begging, no matter how many times you pretend it is. It is simply saying that the accusation isn’t true of your view. That doesn’t mean you’ve supported your view, but you haven’t tried to do so if all you’re doing is defending.

I have not asserted that God has declared anything. I have explained that some complementarians hold that view rather than the other view you keep saying all complementarians must hold. It is not question-begging simply to point out that there are other views. It’s merely a clarification of what the position actually is or could be. It is not asserting the position as true. It is simply pointing out what the position holds, because it misrepresents complementarianism to assume that only one version of complementarianism is the only possible version.

I have indeed thought about Doug Groothuis’ unwillingness to acknowledge the fallacy in his wife’s argument. He even commented on my blog post about it. It baffles me completely, because he didn’t bother to explain what was wrong with my criticism of the argument. He simply restated the thing I’d already said relied on a fallacy, without showing how it doesn’t rely on that fallacy. Good philosophy would require such an explanation, and he didn’t seem interested in doing that. It isn’t the sort of thing I expect of a trained philosopher. It puzzles me as much as it puzzles you.

Finally, I will ask you please not to call me a liar again. I said very plainly that I have read all sorts of egalitarian scholars, including Gordon Fee, David Garland, Andrew Lincoln, I. Howard Marshall, Philip Towner, Linda Belleville, and F.F. Bruce. (I didn’t mention Craig Keener or Ben Witherington, but I could have. I’ve read them as well.) To say immediately after I said that that it appears I haven’t read any egalitarians is equivalent to calling me a liar. I am very familiar with what they say. I just find their arguments extremely unconvincing.

Comment by Kathryn

November 13, 2006 @ 10:25 pm

Most of the egalitarians here seem to have been raised in patriarchy, myself included. We’ve heard the varying degrees of oppression against women all our lives. That said, I don’t believe patriarchs will be persuaded against patriarchy until the Holy Spirit puts it into their hearts. Jesus said that no one would come to Him except they be drawn to Him by God (John 6:44), and it is so with Biblical equality too. The Holy Spirit worked in my heart to bring me to where I am today, and that is what it takes.

Comment by TL

November 14, 2006 @ 2:13 pm

Jeremy Pierce post #45

Just popped on here so haven’t been following the conversation.

You appear to imply in your first paragraph that egalitarian theology is not determined by serious scholarship. You err in this thinking, but that is not surprising. It is an oft used argument that the “other side” of an issue can’t possibly have researched as well as your own side. Human nature I guess.

However, I must say that I’ve read pretty much ALL the “serious” theology of those in complementarian positions including Grudem and Pipers works and the RBMW “Bluebook”. So if you’d like to quote something, I can probably find it in my library or in my net bookmarks. Having said that, and having read a ton of books proposing Biblical Equality among Christians, I’d say the bulk of exegetical excellence and in depth doctrinal studies are in the egalitarian camp. It was from these studies, starting with Paul Jewett’s “Man, as Male and Female”, that convinced me that the entire Bible strongly supports and promotes spiritual equality in life and in spiritual service., both Old and New Testaments, in spite of the obvious imbalances of cultural leanings.

Your point that complementarians differ somewhat is well taken. In my experience there is a huge variation of how far those who claim the title complementarian wish to take the hierarchical viewpoint. The variation is so wide in fact, that most complementarians live mostly an egalitarian lifestyle while voicing the hierarchical viewpoint. And then there is a wide variance in how restrictive comps are in women’s ministries, even to the point that some allow women associate pastors.

So, what we find convincing or unconvincing seems both very personal, as well as the degree to which one has not only read, but personally researched, and the point to which one is willing to be persuaded. It is common human nature to resist change that one is comfortable with.

Comment by TL

November 14, 2006 @ 2:16 pm

Paula #44

Great Idea!! if someone wants to do that contact me at tiro3@hawaii.rr.com and I’ll help.

As well, we should make a list of egalitarian theologians, but that might be too long a list. :) And we have CBE’s statement as well as CBMW’s statement to see the differing viewpoints.

Comment by Rebecca

November 14, 2006 @ 5:01 pm

Responses to Jeremy’s comments regarding “the Groothuis argument”:

#21: “By the way, the Groothuis argument crucially relies on a fallacy in modal logic (a kind of logic in philosophy that has to do with possibility and necessity). She confuses a property’s being essential to something (which has to do [with] being true at all possible moments in all possible worlds) with a property’s being always true of something (which just has to do with being true at all actual moments in the actual world). I’ve argued this point at greater length here. It isn’t accurate to say something is part of something’s very nature unless it’s an essential property, and you have to show more than that it’s always true to show that.”

I do not confuse permanence with essence, nor does my argument have anything to do with modal logic or possible worlds. Rather, I critique the “world” (the account of God and gender) set forth by the leading patriarchal complementarians (hereafter “PC” for short). In this world, God chose to create male and female such that man has authority and woman submits to man’s authority. In the PC world, this is semantically described as the male “role” of authority and the female “role” of submission. I argue that, given the nature and rationale of these “roles,” what we really have here are not mere roles but differences in the essential being of man and woman. It is not just that the female “role” is one of restriction and deficiency (whereby the woman is not permitted to actively engage certain uniquely human capacities). No, it is that the extent, duration, and nature of these restrictions take these “differences” out of the realm of mere “roles” and into the realm of inherent being or essence. Therefore, the PC formula of male and female as equal in being but unequal (or “different” or “distinct”) in role is not an accurate description of the PC understanding of God’s creational design for men and women. Rather, this understanding logically entails that women are unequal in essence and not merely in role. And so the formula becomes “equal in being and unequal in being,” which of course, is a contradiction and therefore false. The conclusion: the PC understanding of the God-ordained relationship between male and female consists of a logical contradiction, and is, therefore, a false understanding of Scripture. (The above is a description of what my argument does. It is not the argument itself.)

In your comments Jeremy, you charge me with using the word “essence” inappropriately, and with (incorrectly) claiming that women are unequal in essence because their subordination is permanent. The two charges are related: You claim I argue that woman’s permanent subordination logically entails woman’s essential subordination. Your counterargument is that this is a false inference because a property can only be essential to something if it obtains at all times in all possible worlds, and mere permanence does not establish this. To respond just briefly at this point: 1) I do not ground the logical implication of woman’s essential inferiority merely in the permanence of woman’s subordination. 2) I do not use the concept of “essence” in the technical sense of modal logic. I use it in the normal, ordinary, basic dictionary sense of the term, more or less interchangeably with such synonyms as nature, being, personhood, inherent character, defining qualities, and so on. (Webster defines essence and essential as “that which makes something what it is,” “of or constituting the intrinsic, fundamental nature of something.”) A fundamental hermeneutical principle is that the author’s intended meaning should be the basis of any assessment of the text. The reader illegitimately imposes his own meaning on the text.

Comment by Rebecca

November 14, 2006 @ 5:02 pm

So let’s look at what I really say about functional subordination and permanent subordination.

From page 316 in chapter 18 of Discovering Biblical Equality:

“Functional subordination is not necessarily limited in both scope and duration. If the subordinate’s deficiency in ability is permanent (if he either cannot or will not overcome the deficiency), then his subordination in that area of deficiency will be permanent. If the unequal ability is innate, then the resulting subordination does reflect the person’s inherently inferior ability in that particular area. But it does not indicate the subordinate’s inferiority as a person, because the subordination remains limited in scope to the area of deficient ability; the person may far excel the average person in even more important areas of function.”

Thus, I do acknowledge that functional subordination can be permanent—even if the subordination is due to an innate inferiority in ability—without necessarily implying that the person is inferior in essence, being, or personhood.

Also, from footnote #49 of my chapter 18:

Robert Saucy… tries to debunk my claim that woman’s permanent subordination implies woman’s inferiority by arguing that if woman is rendered unequal because her subordination is permanent, then the mere passing of time must make a person unequal (which is nonsensical). However, I do not say that permanent subordination necessarily implies personal inequality. The issue is not simply permanence but whether the subordination is truly functional. Subordination can allow for equality of personhood only if it is a functional subordination—which female subordination is not; moreover, it is possible for functional subordination to be permanent (see GNFW, pp. 74-75).


This assertion is a straw man argument, pure and simple.

Comment by Rebecca

November 14, 2006 @ 5:02 pm

Re: Comment #32: I gave no theory about possible worlds. Groothuis uses the term, ‘essential property’, a technical term in philosophy that has a definition. She then says something about an essential property that is at great odds with what the word means…

Jeremy, you claim I use the term “essential property.” You put it in quotes, thus indicating it is an exact reference. But I do not use this particular term. Therefore I cannot respond to my (allegedly erroneous) use of it. But, as I have already noted, my “misuse” of the term appears to be due to your misunderstanding of my overall argument.

Throughout the critique you seem to be insisting on your specific and technical definition of essence, and rejecting my argument on that basis. But this does not demonstrate proper hermeneutics, namely: interpret the meaning of a term by its given context, and do not impose an esoteric or technical meaning where it was neither intended nor required. The term essential need not have the meaning you insist upon. It is one thing to object that a writer is using a term without understanding the implications of that term; it is quite another to impose a meaning on a term that doesn’t fit the context and then criticize the author for not properly employing that imposed meaning. The latter is your error. Thus, you end up refuting an argument of your own invention, not the argument I have offered.

Comment by Rebecca

November 14, 2006 @ 5:06 pm

Perhaps the following quote will clarify some of the confusion about permanence and necessity—from DBE chapter 18, page 318:

‘Given evangelical patriarchy’s theological premise that God designed man and woman at creation for a (benevolent) male-rule relationship, it is necessary for a woman to be subordinate to male rule if she is to be true to the divinely designed meaning of womanhood. Not to submit would be unnatural and unfitting. Her subordination to male authority is thus a moral necessity, rooted in ontology—in the way God made man and woman to be from the beginning. Philosophically speaking, this is a hypothetical necessity, because it follows from a certain premise. If God created man to rule woman and woman to serve man, then a woman’s submission to male authority obtains necessarily, solely by virtue of her womanhood.’

Woman’s subordination is necessary given the PC view of the world. (It is not logically necessary in all possible worlds.) And because it is necessary it is permanent. The permanence is grounded in the necessity. The necessity is not rooted solely in the permanence. The necessity obtains by virtue of woman’s subordination being permanent and comprehensive and ontologically based. Thus: If God chose to design man to be in authority over woman and woman to be in submission to man’s authority (as the PC view teaches), then authority and subordination are constitutive elements of male being and female being per God’s original creation.

These are not reasonably described as mere “differences” in “roles,” such that the male role and the female role are different but equal. From chapter 18, page 321:

‘The basis for women’s subordination (God’s design and purpose for womanhood), as well as the “functions” in which women are subordinate (spiritual discernment, decision making and self-governance), is all about being. Woman’s nature or ontology, her life purpose or teleology, her will, intellect and moral understanding, her spiritual responsibilities before God—these are matters as close to the heart of a person’s being as anything ever could be. They define and characterize what a person is. The suppression of women (and not men) in these critical areas of personhood is not meaningfully described merely as women’s “different role.”’

There is a logical “sleight of hand” with the role theology Jeremy propounds. From chapter 18 in DBE, p. 325:

Role theology would have us believe that although the subordinate role is not demanded by the nature of the female person, a woman who is truly feminine will play the role of submission to male authority because God ordained at creation that this is to be the woman’s permanent role, and only the woman who plays this role is fulfilling her purpose and true identity as a woman. However, it is illogical to maintain that there is no basis for the role in the nature of the person when the role is one of moral necessity given the nature of the person, and when the role is perceived as defining one’s personal gender identity and as having been established by God at creation. In what other area of life do we freight a mere role with such ontological significance? Creational design, personal nature, gender identity—this is the stuff of being, not of a mere role or function. The concept of “role” is simply playing the role of “being”!

Comment by Rebecca

November 14, 2006 @ 5:09 pm

Re: comment #42: “A divine command view of something entails exactly that it does not rely on essential properties.

Divine command morality most certainly does “rely on essential properties,” namely, the essential properties of the divine being (here your technical definition obtains). In any case, the “divine command” or “decree” or “declaration” account of “gender roles” is a divine anomaly. God gave the first man and woman authority and dominion based on their BEING made in the image of God. This is clearly written in Scripture. What is not written anywhere in Scripture is that God gave man (and not woman) direct authority under God to govern in the church and the home on the basis of ROLES. Is God going to give both man and woman authority and dominion on the basis of their nature or being (and say so in his Word) and then suddenly resort to the obscure and unstated notion of “roles” in order to give men authority over women? This notion of “roles” seems to be a construct of complementarians, since not even the concept, much less the term, appears in Scripture.

For a well developed argument for why female subordination is not just a role or just about a difference in authority, please see the Priscilla Papers article by Adam Omelianchuk, “The ‘Difference’ Between ‘A and not-A” (vol 20. no. 1, Winter 2006).

Also, be sure to read the excellent post from Alan, #37.

Comment by Jeremy Pierce

November 14, 2006 @ 11:31 pm

#45: You appear to imply in your first paragraph that egalitarian theology is not determined by serious scholarship.

You err in ascribing this view to me. I’m not sure why you’d think I think such a thing, given that I have now twice listed a whole bunch of serious egalitarian scholars whom I have read.

For the recor