The CBE Scroll

Comment by Janet Macor

November 8, 2006 @ 9:39 am

I think that this may be right. Also, it is my understanding that there is only one head pastor and 4 elders for this 14,000 member church. Although Ted Haggard made his own choice to participate in certain activities, certainly I agree that a lack of accountability within the church structure contributed to the ease with which to make such a choice.

Janet

Comment by LJR

November 8, 2006 @ 11:27 am

Similar problems are happening in Fundamentalist churches, and for exactly the same reasons. When I started attending a conservative evangelical church (and when there was a difference between Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals), I thought the pastor had a lot more accountability than I had ever seen in a church before. My previous churches had been led by a single pastor, and one by only the founding pastor. No elders, no boards, nothing else. Any accountability at all was a plus to me.

Unfortunately, the problems of Fundamentalism are creeping into conservative evangelical churches in ways I hoped I’d never have to see again.

Even before the Haggard scandal, I was seeing troubling power shifts in my church and denomination. The things that had attracted me to my church in terms of freedom for women and accountability for leadership were fading away. Misogyny and some seriously messed-up leadership were coming in. My fiance and I got out and went emergent, but our friends are still at the old church in the middle of the same old problems.

I know of someone who has been documenting the problems in Fundamentalist churches, and she focuses a lot on the aftermath of out-of-control power. Even though she is a comp herself, she nails the reasons for the correlation between the lack of accountability and the rise of abuse in churches. If you can handle some bluntness, she has some warnings for some evangelicals who insist on continuing their current course. Her URL will be linked to my initials for this post.

Comment by ShawnaRenee

November 8, 2006 @ 3:06 pm

When will evangelicalism realize that it can’t keep isolating its pastors and not providing any kind of support and accountability for them? And I do think this is an evangelical problem as well as fundamentalist problem. Those of us who belong to evangelical denominations are left on our own too. Isolation and loneliness are epidemics among evangelical pastors, pastoral staff, and their families (I know this is true within the Nazarene denomination). One of the most isolated times in my life was when I was on staff as an associate pastor, and college and seminary do not prepare for you for it. I was in no way prepared for the isolationism and loneliness I was engulfed in. Evangelical churches and denominations need to start giving their pastors the support they need and the safe sanctuaries they need to confess sin and pursue accountability. The Christian life cannot be lived on one’s own: community is needed, and this is even more so for its leaders.

Comment by Lainie Petersen

November 8, 2006 @ 4:41 pm

In one article about the “restoration” process for Mr. Haggard, the author notes that Haggard will be counseled and rebuked by “godly men.” I have to ask: Why are only men involved in this restoration process? Is it not possible that a godly woman, or godly women, might have some insight into this situation? Is it not possible that a godly woman might be a good choice to offer a “rebuke” or “counsel”?

I am all for preserving decorum in counseling relationships, and I am aware of the dangers that can arise from persons of the opposite gender entering the intensely intimate therapeutic relationship. But given that Mr. Haggard is accused of engaging in same-sex temptations, I have to wonder if surrounding Haggard with a team of “Godly men” ( many of them “superstar” pastors) is the wisest move.

Comment by Julia

November 9, 2006 @ 10:52 am

RE: #3

I would completely agree that the leadership structure of the evangelical church promotes isolation and lonliness among pastors and actually church staff in general. As a daughter of a Southern Baptist minister, I know firsthand the isolation from the rest of the church that a minister and his family can experience. Now that I am living my own life apart from my father’s church, it breaks my heart to compare my friend-enriched life with the loneliness my parent’s experience. Apart from each other, I don’t think my parents have had close friends in about fifteen years.

The change, however, can’t come from the ministers themselves. I don’t think it can even come from “the church” as a whole. It must come from brave individuals who are willing to break the mold, and say to their leadership staff, “You are my friend. I love you as a whole person, strengths and frailties.” That is how the change will happen.

Comment by LJR

November 9, 2006 @ 1:07 pm

Yeep! 8-( I didn’t expect BASSENCO the blogmistress to start posting on her view of women’s issues today. The link under my initials will go to her “Wicked Index,” which is also linked to her blog sidebar.

Re: Comments # 3 and # 5:
Amen! There’s even a measure of isolation for people involved in leadership in smaller ministries, not just the pastoral positions. I’ve experienced that isolation for myself, and I don’t wish it upon anyone.

Comment by Liz

November 10, 2006 @ 12:41 am

From personal experience in the pastoral ministry, it takes hard work to keep reminding people that we are all the same but it must be done in many different ways. It is just another example of equality in practice and in some measure, it is up to those of us in leadership positions to demonstrate servanthood. Ways to do this include riding ourselves of unnecessary titles (correcting people at times); belonging to a regular house group just like we expect others in the congregation to do; having others doing “up front” things often reserved for pastors. It can be a long process but it bears fruit. Sometimes visitors to our church would not know for a week or two who the pastors were as so many others we taking responsibility and in the forefront of proceedings. Another way we helped this was to stop the habit of standing at the door to shake hands with everyone as they left but mingled with the crowd and encourage everyone to greet people. We also wore “ordinary” clothes such as most people were wearing. Occasionally people thought we were too understated but we felt it was a good thing to be “just like everyone else.”

Comment by Craighton

November 11, 2006 @ 12:41 am

Being a pastor and avoiding its potential downfalls is an extremely difficult if not impossible job. It makes you wonder whether there should be such a position.

I agree that super-(in-size)-churches and independent churches have a particularly difficult time with accountability. The A-type personalities that run them don’t do well with criticism and don’t even hear it well, let alone do anything that might threaten their empires, like set up strong check mechanisms within board leadership.

But having been on boards within denominational structures, I must say that I’m not very impressed with the way they handle problem pastors either. Controlling pastors massage the board election/appointment process to elevate yes-men, and speaking against a particular pastoral practice can get a board member on a “no-longer-approved” list. I think many deacons and elders feel like “How can I stand up to such a holy man of God? I’m just a lowly, ignorant layperson.”

Maybe the Plymouth Brethren had something in their (now shrinking) historically based opinions that were very suspicious of hiring highly trained professionals to be a “main” leader of their congregations. That group may have its own problems, but keeping congregations small like they do and defusing church leadership across a number of gifted (hopefully) individuals are probably good ideas.

Comment by Terri

November 12, 2006 @ 7:54 am

I have attended New Life church for the past two years. I can add just a little to this discussion, but I would like to affirm that in his letter to the congregation last Sunday, Pastor Ted identified his sense of isolation and pride as instumental in leading to his failings.

He said that his pride kept him from confessing and seeking counsel at key times that would have helped him stay on his path.

The decision of the overseers was not to “discipline and restore” but to “dismiss” Pastor Ted. It is a misunderstanding that there are only four elders. The overseer board that made this decision is composed of four elders from outside the congregation. The congregational leadership includes more than a hundred pastors and elders.

Anyone interested may listen to the remarks from New Life last Sunday morning available through iTunes or the New Life website, http://www.newlifechurch.org - click on podcasts.