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	<title>Comments on: The Image of God and Sexuality</title>
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	<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2007/01/the-image-of-god-and-sexuality/</link>
	<description>Blog voices from Christians for Biblical Equality</description>
	<pubDate>Tue,  6 Jan 2009 10:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Liz</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2007/01/the-image-of-god-and-sexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-29958</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Feb 2007 02:25:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=114#comment-29958</guid>
		<description>Repyling to Brian - comment 2.
Your statement "I don't see any reason to 'sound the alarm' or 'instil fear' suggests to me that we just go along with whatever is suggested even if we see damaging consequences. Anything which perpetuates the idea of a daughter being under her father's protection (as against both parents) carries with it the belief that female believers are not capable of being upright, God-honouring individuals. It also suggests that a woman moves from her father's oversight to that of her husband - once again not encouraging her to stand on her own two feet (spiritually) and grow up into Christ. For these reasons I am fearful of these movements and try to politely point out these inconsistencies when I see them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Repyling to Brian - comment 2.<br />
Your statement &#8220;I don&#8217;t see any reason to &#8217;sound the alarm&#8217; or &#8216;instil fear&#8217; suggests to me that we just go along with whatever is suggested even if we see damaging consequences. Anything which perpetuates the idea of a daughter being under her father&#8217;s protection (as against both parents) carries with it the belief that female believers are not capable of being upright, God-honouring individuals. It also suggests that a woman moves from her father&#8217;s oversight to that of her husband - once again not encouraging her to stand on her own two feet (spiritually) and grow up into Christ. For these reasons I am fearful of these movements and try to politely point out these inconsistencies when I see them.</p>
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		<title>By: Lori Buckle</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2007/01/the-image-of-god-and-sexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-24397</link>
		<dc:creator>Lori Buckle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 13:54:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=114#comment-24397</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Comment #1 quoted the pledge girls make:
“until the day I give myself as a wedding gift to my husband”&lt;/em&gt;

That statement disturbs me too, but for a different reason.  It implies that the girl &lt;b&gt;will&lt;/b&gt; find a husband.  There is nothing in the Bible that says that any man or woman will find a spouse.  God never promises anyone that they'll get married, just that He'll be with us, no matter what happens to us in life.  As a woman who didn't get married until her 30's, I can tell you that this is one of the most damaging myths perpetuated among Christian singles.  "There's somebody for everybody.  God knows I desire to get married, so He'll provide somebody."  Then people--men and women--get frustrated when that doesn't happen on their timetable.  

I can also say from personal experience that in headship churches there is tremendous pressure to get  married.  They put such heavy emphasis on getting married and having kids, especially for women, that anybody not happily settled with a spouse and 2.5 kids is  considered "not normal"  and even vaguely threatening.  I remember once my single's Sunday School teacher (who met his own wife in Bible college thirty years earlier), was urging us to get more involved in the church.  The youth group particularly needed mentors, he said.  One of the men in our class snorted cynically and said, "They don't want us hanging around the youth group.  They're afraid of the example we would set.  They want their kids to get married early and think they'll live happily ever after."  Even though I'm married now, I keep in touch with my single friends, and I can tell you that these kinds of attitudes are still prevalent.  One prominent Christian leader even said once that we would be rewarded in Heaven for getting married on earth!  You can imagine what kind of pain that caused to the single people who heard it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Comment #1 quoted the pledge girls make:<br />
“until the day I give myself as a wedding gift to my husband”</em></p>
<p>That statement disturbs me too, but for a different reason.  It implies that the girl <b>will</b> find a husband.  There is nothing in the Bible that says that any man or woman will find a spouse.  God never promises anyone that they&#8217;ll get married, just that He&#8217;ll be with us, no matter what happens to us in life.  As a woman who didn&#8217;t get married until her 30&#8217;s, I can tell you that this is one of the most damaging myths perpetuated among Christian singles.  &#8220;There&#8217;s somebody for everybody.  God knows I desire to get married, so He&#8217;ll provide somebody.&#8221;  Then people&#8211;men and women&#8211;get frustrated when that doesn&#8217;t happen on their timetable.  </p>
<p>I can also say from personal experience that in headship churches there is tremendous pressure to get  married.  They put such heavy emphasis on getting married and having kids, especially for women, that anybody not happily settled with a spouse and 2.5 kids is  considered &#8220;not normal&#8221;  and even vaguely threatening.  I remember once my single&#8217;s Sunday School teacher (who met his own wife in Bible college thirty years earlier), was urging us to get more involved in the church.  The youth group particularly needed mentors, he said.  One of the men in our class snorted cynically and said, &#8220;They don&#8217;t want us hanging around the youth group.  They&#8217;re afraid of the example we would set.  They want their kids to get married early and think they&#8217;ll live happily ever after.&#8221;  Even though I&#8217;m married now, I keep in touch with my single friends, and I can tell you that these kinds of attitudes are still prevalent.  One prominent Christian leader even said once that we would be rewarded in Heaven for getting married on earth!  You can imagine what kind of pain that caused to the single people who heard it.</p>
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		<title>By: Kathryn</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2007/01/the-image-of-god-and-sexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-24112</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathryn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jan 2007 05:00:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=114#comment-24112</guid>
		<description>Re: comment 11: Great point. Of course, a woman should resist such sexual advances, but I would ask patriarchs this question: When a woman resists ungodly advances from a man, is she then acting as his spiritual leader by saying "No, this isn't right before God."? Sounds like spiritual leadership to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: comment 11: Great point. Of course, a woman should resist such sexual advances, but I would ask patriarchs this question: When a woman resists ungodly advances from a man, is she then acting as his spiritual leader by saying &#8220;No, this isn&#8217;t right before God.&#8221;? Sounds like spiritual leadership to me.</p>
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		<title>By: cokhavim</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2007/01/the-image-of-god-and-sexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-23972</link>
		<dc:creator>cokhavim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:20:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=114#comment-23972</guid>
		<description>Comment #1 quoted the pledge girls make:
"until the day I give myself as a wedding gift to my husband"

What about the boys giving themselves as a wedding gift to their wives???  

Is this more evidence that such people view women as chattel?  

Absolutely disgusting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comment #1 quoted the pledge girls make:<br />
&#8220;until the day I give myself as a wedding gift to my husband&#8221;</p>
<p>What about the boys giving themselves as a wedding gift to their wives???  </p>
<p>Is this more evidence that such people view women as chattel?  </p>
<p>Absolutely disgusting.</p>
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		<title>By: Lori</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2007/01/the-image-of-god-and-sexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-23355</link>
		<dc:creator>Lori</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=114#comment-23355</guid>
		<description>Sally in #7:
&lt;em&gt;The purity ball sounds cute and meaningful in a schmaltzy sort of way, but theologically bodgy to me. &lt;/em&gt;

That’s what I was thinking. The idea is good–of course you want to encourage kids to remain abstinent before marriage. And if you want to make it fun by dressing up in cute prom dresses, then hey, go for it. It’s the theology stated in the pledges that bugs me.
As others have already stated, the whole “husband/father as high priest” thing is pretty much non-biblical. The only verse you could find to possibly support that idea is 1 Cor 11:3. However, there is a great deal of controversy about the meaning of that verse, and many egalitarian writers have demonstrated that it can have an entirely different meaning. Therefore, to base your entire theology on that verse is, as the British say, downright dodgy. Even if you include Eph 5:22 (”wives submit”), you’re still basing your theology on only a couple of Bible verses, which is still dodgy. And of course, it brings up a whole host of practical questions. Why does a woman need a high priest over her? Isn’t that what Jesus Himself came to end? I mean, I was always taught that when the veil in the Temple split in half during Jesus’ crucifixion, that meant everybody now had direct access to God. So how on earth do you reconcile that with women needing some sort of spiritual authority over her? Are the husbands closer to God, then? (This is actually implied if you take the hierarchalist view of 1 Cor 11:3.) So how does that square with everybody being equal before God?

And, more relevant to this discussion, it encourages women to think of themselves as “belonging” to somebody for pretty much their entire lives. This idea is actually not unique to these purity balls, but pretty much runs through complementary literature on marriage and singleness. Girls are encouraged to stay home with their parents until they get married–the latest hit book on the subject says that a woman should stay home now matter how old she is and let her father guide her relationships “just like they did in the Bible.” Therefore, women are encouraged to be eternally dependent, first on their fathers and then on their husbands. Is that emotionally or mentally healthy for women?

As for the idea of having teenagers take formal pledges of chastity, will that even work? Remember the “True Love Waits” fiasco, where a study showed that teens who took that pledge were still committing sexual acts such as oral sex, because they believed it wasn’t “real sex”? I think Sally’s recommendations are far better.

And last, as to the submission issue, here’s what I think somebody in the headship movement would say, based on having grown up in it. “Submission only applies once you get married. The Bible says for wives to submit to their husbands. Of course, a woman should reject anything that contradicts God’s Word. Any man other than her husband who tries to pressure her into having sex is clearly not following God, so naturally the woman should reject him.” However, they still insist on women being passive–a woman should never initiate a relationship but always let the man do the courting. 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sally in #7:<br />
<em>The purity ball sounds cute and meaningful in a schmaltzy sort of way, but theologically bodgy to me. </em></p>
<p>That’s what I was thinking. The idea is good–of course you want to encourage kids to remain abstinent before marriage. And if you want to make it fun by dressing up in cute prom dresses, then hey, go for it. It’s the theology stated in the pledges that bugs me.<br />
As others have already stated, the whole “husband/father as high priest” thing is pretty much non-biblical. The only verse you could find to possibly support that idea is 1 Cor 11:3. However, there is a great deal of controversy about the meaning of that verse, and many egalitarian writers have demonstrated that it can have an entirely different meaning. Therefore, to base your entire theology on that verse is, as the British say, downright dodgy. Even if you include Eph 5:22 (”wives submit”), you’re still basing your theology on only a couple of Bible verses, which is still dodgy. And of course, it brings up a whole host of practical questions. Why does a woman need a high priest over her? Isn’t that what Jesus Himself came to end? I mean, I was always taught that when the veil in the Temple split in half during Jesus’ crucifixion, that meant everybody now had direct access to God. So how on earth do you reconcile that with women needing some sort of spiritual authority over her? Are the husbands closer to God, then? (This is actually implied if you take the hierarchalist view of 1 Cor 11:3.) So how does that square with everybody being equal before God?</p>
<p>And, more relevant to this discussion, it encourages women to think of themselves as “belonging” to somebody for pretty much their entire lives. This idea is actually not unique to these purity balls, but pretty much runs through complementary literature on marriage and singleness. Girls are encouraged to stay home with their parents until they get married–the latest hit book on the subject says that a woman should stay home now matter how old she is and let her father guide her relationships “just like they did in the Bible.” Therefore, women are encouraged to be eternally dependent, first on their fathers and then on their husbands. Is that emotionally or mentally healthy for women?</p>
<p>As for the idea of having teenagers take formal pledges of chastity, will that even work? Remember the “True Love Waits” fiasco, where a study showed that teens who took that pledge were still committing sexual acts such as oral sex, because they believed it wasn’t “real sex”? I think Sally’s recommendations are far better.</p>
<p>And last, as to the submission issue, here’s what I think somebody in the headship movement would say, based on having grown up in it. “Submission only applies once you get married. The Bible says for wives to submit to their husbands. Of course, a woman should reject anything that contradicts God’s Word. Any man other than her husband who tries to pressure her into having sex is clearly not following God, so naturally the woman should reject him.” However, they still insist on women being passive–a woman should never initiate a relationship but always let the man do the courting.</p>
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		<title>By: Kathryn</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2007/01/the-image-of-god-and-sexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-23016</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathryn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jan 2007 02:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=114#comment-23016</guid>
		<description>Re: comment # 7: Godly practical advice, Sally. Don't just hand down rules to young people; explain the reason for those rules. There is a lot of love behind the Ten Commandments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: comment # 7: Godly practical advice, Sally. Don&#8217;t just hand down rules to young people; explain the reason for those rules. There is a lot of love behind the Ten Commandments.</p>
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		<title>By: ShawnaRenee</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2007/01/the-image-of-god-and-sexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-22826</link>
		<dc:creator>ShawnaRenee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jan 2007 03:07:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=114#comment-22826</guid>
		<description>Thank you for all of your comments. Sally, I absolutely agree with everything you said. That's what I think we should be doing. I also agree with those who pointed out that the father being the high priest is not biblical and could in fact be heretical. Kathryn, that's what this boiled down to for me: these people see women as chattel.

For those who pointed out the catch 22 of submitting to men then telling them no when it comes to premarital sex a special thanks. I hadn't even thought of that. Thank you for adding that element to this discussion.

Ruud, thank you for finding the pledge the girls take and telling us what it was.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for all of your comments. Sally, I absolutely agree with everything you said. That&#8217;s what I think we should be doing. I also agree with those who pointed out that the father being the high priest is not biblical and could in fact be heretical. Kathryn, that&#8217;s what this boiled down to for me: these people see women as chattel.</p>
<p>For those who pointed out the catch 22 of submitting to men then telling them no when it comes to premarital sex a special thanks. I hadn&#8217;t even thought of that. Thank you for adding that element to this discussion.</p>
<p>Ruud, thank you for finding the pledge the girls take and telling us what it was.</p>
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		<title>By: sally</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2007/01/the-image-of-god-and-sexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-22819</link>
		<dc:creator>sally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2007 23:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=114#comment-22819</guid>
		<description>I gave a talk to a youth group a few years ago about why sex in marriage is the best option. 

My basic point was: you don't want to be ripped off, and you don't want to rip other people off.

If you do it with someone before you marry them, you're ripping yourself off in lots of different ways - potential for pregnancy, STDs, serious emotional difficulties for starters. You rip them off in the same way.

Plus, you rip off their potential husband/wife, and your own husband/wife, because you're giving yourself and your partner a sexual history, possible health problems and definite emotional problems, all of which will contribute to a more difficult marriage.

My final reason has always been: I want to have a sexually faithful marriage. If I don't do it with my partner before we marry, I know that I (and he/she) have proved that we both have enough self-control to hold off on hopping into bed with someone else in years to come, so there's a definite higher probability we will stay faithful.

All this apart from the fact that the Bible says not to! 

I always think it's better to explain to young people why the rules are what they are, not just say, "This is so, therefore do it." 

The purity ball sounds cute and meaningful in a schmaltzy sort of way, but theologically bodgy to me. A better alternative -- talk openly about sex in your families and your youth groups, and know WHY it's best not to do it.

Then, help kids start setting up limits for themselves. Don't say, "I won't go to bed with my boyfriend." Instead say, "I won't lie down horizontal with him. I won't date alone. Kissing is as far as I'll go, and if he wants more, I know what I will say because I've practiced saying it. I'll talk openly to my parents, who will accept what my limits are, trust me and help me to keep them."

It's all about thinking ahead, but in practical ways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I gave a talk to a youth group a few years ago about why sex in marriage is the best option. </p>
<p>My basic point was: you don&#8217;t want to be ripped off, and you don&#8217;t want to rip other people off.</p>
<p>If you do it with someone before you marry them, you&#8217;re ripping yourself off in lots of different ways - potential for pregnancy, STDs, serious emotional difficulties for starters. You rip them off in the same way.</p>
<p>Plus, you rip off their potential husband/wife, and your own husband/wife, because you&#8217;re giving yourself and your partner a sexual history, possible health problems and definite emotional problems, all of which will contribute to a more difficult marriage.</p>
<p>My final reason has always been: I want to have a sexually faithful marriage. If I don&#8217;t do it with my partner before we marry, I know that I (and he/she) have proved that we both have enough self-control to hold off on hopping into bed with someone else in years to come, so there&#8217;s a definite higher probability we will stay faithful.</p>
<p>All this apart from the fact that the Bible says not to! </p>
<p>I always think it&#8217;s better to explain to young people why the rules are what they are, not just say, &#8220;This is so, therefore do it.&#8221; </p>
<p>The purity ball sounds cute and meaningful in a schmaltzy sort of way, but theologically bodgy to me. A better alternative &#8212; talk openly about sex in your families and your youth groups, and know WHY it&#8217;s best not to do it.</p>
<p>Then, help kids start setting up limits for themselves. Don&#8217;t say, &#8220;I won&#8217;t go to bed with my boyfriend.&#8221; Instead say, &#8220;I won&#8217;t lie down horizontal with him. I won&#8217;t date alone. Kissing is as far as I&#8217;ll go, and if he wants more, I know what I will say because I&#8217;ve practiced saying it. I&#8217;ll talk openly to my parents, who will accept what my limits are, trust me and help me to keep them.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s all about thinking ahead, but in practical ways.</p>
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		<title>By: Kathryn</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2007/01/the-image-of-god-and-sexuality/comment-page-1/#comment-22704</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathryn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2007 06:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=114#comment-22704</guid>
		<description>Once again, women are being viewed as chattel. I firmly believe in abstinence before marriage and faithfulness in marriage, viewing it as a part of the price of godly discipleship, as of course does CBE; however, the patriarchy involved in this particular trend is a form of spiritual witchcraft. Yes indeed, we are all priests before God, with only one High Priest!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once again, women are being viewed as chattel. I firmly believe in abstinence before marriage and faithfulness in marriage, viewing it as a part of the price of godly discipleship, as of course does CBE; however, the patriarchy involved in this particular trend is a form of spiritual witchcraft. Yes indeed, we are all priests before God, with only one High Priest!</p>
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