The CBE Scroll

Comment by Mike

June 22, 2007 @ 1:23 pm

Extraordinary! I have to say there seems to me something slightly sinister about that… really quite worrying. If it weren’t for your wanting to support your neighbor, I’d say keep well away!

Comment by LMcC

June 22, 2007 @ 4:46 pm

I never heard of men having to be a ‘covering’ for women’s church groups until about six years ago, but now it seems to be all over the place. I consider it to be creepy, to be brutally honest. I can imagine the stifling effect that it must have on open communication among the women, not to mention what the guy who has to watch over the women must think about the whole situation. I’ve heard some men sit in the back and fall asleep during the women’s groups. Great ‘covering’ there (shrug). Also, if men aren’t supposed to be taught by women, what does he do if the female teacher is good and he does learn something? Does he have to repent? (I’m not so sure if I’m kidding when I ask that).

This idea that a women’s group must have a ‘male perspective’ while the men do not need any from a woman also bothers me for obvious reasons. First, how can any one man doing his ‘covering’ duty accurately represent fully a male perspective? One man cannot speak for all, just as one woman cannot speak for all. Having similar bodies does not mean the brains inside think alike. Second, in my complementarian days, anything church-related came from a male perspective – the sermons, the teaching in adult classes, the Christian school principal, the evangelists, you name it. There was no female perspective except for in the women-only groups (and I hope Mom’s church isn’t buying into this covering business by now, although I heard her pastor is hanging out a lot with the senior women’s crowd). The women didn’t have to be reminded who was in charge or how they thought. (We probably knew how the men at church thought better than they themselves did – had to, if we were to submit properly.)

If the men don’t allow themselves to learn what concerns the women, how on earth are they supposed to minister effectively to us? (They can’t do it.) If the women aren’t allowed to minister to one another in their private groups without a chaperone, how can they grow to their full maturity spiritually? (They can’t.) The whole ‘covering’ business doesn’t seem to be good for anybody spiritually.

Comment by Terri

June 22, 2007 @ 9:35 pm

It is hard to believe that some adult women in the 20th century are still very accepting of this antiquated notion of needing a man to cover them spiritually. I believe that if you put a newborn Christian woman (that has not been exposed to church doctrine and tradition – like a lot of us have) alone in a room for a whole week and let her read the Gospels and the letters to the churches, she will not walk away with the belief that she needs a man’s spiritual covering to validate or make her relationship more acceptable with Christ.

I have always found it interesting that some practices in churches cannot take serious scrutiny or serious questions. Because this woman had no answer for you she played the trump card – ‘God said,’ and maybe she was sincere about what she believed, but sincerity is not certainty, and it was also meant to put a stop to any further questioning.

The covering doctrine falls into the same category as the headship doctrine, but with less concrete evidence. Fundamentalists and conservatives have a tendency to add things to God’s Word (as it concerns relationships between women and men) that are just not there and when they do this they make it say things that it does not say. An example being: the husband is the head of the wife. True. But, then they take this truth and expand it, stretch it, distort it and tell us that it encompasses a greater area than just marriage. This word ‘head’ then becomes more powerful and takes on more territory than originally given it, and has now become inclusive of (all) matters pertaining to family life.

It is my desire that women will grow and begin to eat the meat of the Word and throw the bottle away!

Comment by Karen

June 23, 2007 @ 5:56 pm

I have also recently heard of a situation where although it didn’t deal with women alone, it was another of these ‘covering’ issues.

Several senior couples felt it would be worthwhile if they got together and prayed once a week. They approached a church (where at least one of the couples attended) to see if they could use a room to pray on a given morning each week. The pastor and administration said that they could meet, however they would have to be instructed in prayer each week before they actually ‘prayed.’ This instruction was to come from a young pastor-in-training. I can’t say where all of the couples were in their spiritual walk – nor do I know of their experiences regarding prayer. However, the woman who had the idea to pray in the first place had served as a missionary overseas for sixty years of her life! I wonder if she knew ‘how’ to pray! It is likely that the other seniors in the group had also had some experience in their prayer life. Prayer isn’t usually something that you voluntarily do unless you sincerely have a conviction of its importance in the church and in your life.

I know that instruction and training are good but when we start assuming that one person, because they are male or because they have a couple of years of seminary should be ‘a covering’ over others – that is stretching the Word of God. Isn’t it about the calling on our lives – that does not discriminate against gender, age, color, and class?

Another friend of mine was told by her pastor’s wife that she (my friend) needed to be ‘covered’ by the pastor (and his wife) because they didn’t feel her husband was ‘Godly enough’ to be her covering. In truth, he didn’t really care for the church and therefore didn’t like to attend.

I see much of this as being about control and power. The church has twisted Scripture to suit their manmade doctrines. I used to believe in the covering idea – until recently when I started to study, read and be informed by CBE, etc. This group that Liz experienced was operating in a way that they believed was right, and she was told that to question it would be like questioning God. The fact that a man was there as an advisor likely intimidated some women from sharing in this all-women group with one man making sure that the meeting was in order. I wonder what those women might have done if for some reason the man couldn’t be present. An uncontrolled group of women? Yikes! Or, an uncovered group of seniors praying? This could be another slippery slope!

I agree with Mike (see comment 57060) that it’s likely not a place for person who wants to experience freedom and opportunity in the body of Christ. On a personal note, since I have become egalitarian in my thinking I have found that I enjoy church meetings (study, classes, fellowship) with both genders present more than just the ladies meetings. I think that men and women, together, bring balance. Doesn’t that make sense and sound… logical?

Representatives of biblical equality, together!

Comment by Sherri

June 24, 2007 @ 4:14 pm

This reminds me of a conversation that I had recently with a good friend. She was telling me about an important decision that she had been praying about lately. The guidance she felt God provided her was to ‘use her head.’ She then went on to say that she asked her husband (her head) what to do and he made her decision for her. This was very comforting to her because, as she said, ‘Now I don’t have to worry about whether or not I made the correct choice – it is his responsibility!’

I was stunned. Could it be possible that many women want men to continue having this authority so they can rest in the thought that they are not responsible for the decisions they make and the lives they live?

Comment by Lori

June 26, 2007 @ 1:38 pm

My husband is British, so he has no knowledge of the gender wars within American Christianity. I shared your story with him, Sherri (See comment 57254), and his immediate reaction was ‘That woman just wants to sit back and let her husband make her decisions for her and let him get punished by God if he screws up. In the meantime, she sails through life unaffected. What a cop out! Why would any man want a marriage like that? I certainly don’t!’

I say this because I imagine this is how most non-Christians in America see the headship sect of Christianity.

Comment by Sherri

June 26, 2007 @ 2:32 pm

See comment 57517.

That’s amazing! I wasn’t aware that the British do not have the gender wars as we do. It is encouraging too.

I like your point that

I say this because I imagine this is how most non-Christians in America see the headship sect of Christianity.

Perhaps the message of Jesus Christ is thwarted by ‘headship’ mentality. In fact, I am sure it is. The problem being if a woman rejects this side of Christianity she is seen as rebellious.

Comment by Terri

June 27, 2007 @ 8:10 am

It is so sad that women have accepted the myth that they are more prone to deception and in need of a strong man to direct them. Years and years of intense indoctrination usually pay off in the end. Now, in some denominations we have a score of misfit women that are afraid to grow up and use their own God-given consciences to lead them, all because of this teaching.

I read an article on a website, and I quote, ‘A husband and wife should be equal in their family, except that the husband answers directly to God, and the wife answers to her husband and God.’ The husband has now become the second mediator between his wife and God, in contradiction to Scripture. ‘There is only one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus’ (1 Timothy 2:5, NIV).

This teaching has effectively created a second priesthood for men only. This doctrine can’t be couched in circumcision, as in the Old Testament. Paul said that it was not the circumcision of the flesh but of the heart. But through (creative) misuse of Scripture and using the fact that Adam was the (protos) of Eve, men have advanced and projected a Godlike image and spirituality onto themselves that women can never hope to achieve. Once again, it is the misfortune of biology/sex that causes this spiritual disparity. What this teaching effectively does is transpose an image of neediness and helplessness onto the female gender, thus meeting the emotional need of insecure men to feel in control, if not of everything around them then at least of their women.

When young girls are socialized to believe that they are by nature inclined to be more sinful, needier and less spiritual than men, then it makes it more understandable why some women would accept this as God’s will for them.

Comment by PS

June 27, 2007 @ 12:30 pm

A friend of ours who has a Catholic background is attending a Baptist church. He has been asked to teach some classes there, but the pastor has apologized and said that a pastor would have to be present because this man hadn’t received an adult baptism. However, the man’s wife came from a non-church family but went to a Methodist church with friends and was baptized at age 12, so she is OK to teach Sunday school.

Another form of ‘covering.’

Comment by Terri

June 29, 2007 @ 7:30 am

See comment 57661.

The boundaries, restrictions, and tedious technicalities differ not only from one denomination to another but also within themselves. As I matured in Christ, it became clear to me that in a lot of churches Christ and the Holy Spirit were not calling the shots. The church dogmas were instituted and implemented by the presiding pastor and a handful of elders. Needless to say, these dogmatic practices can and are usually changed when the church brings in a new pastor or new leadership, i.e. new pastor, new agenda! It seems to me that most leaders are more concerned with controlling their members than with leading them.

Baptism doesn’t make one acceptable for heaven. It is all about new birth - water baptism is merely an outward sign of an inward faith. If water baptism was so essential then Christ and Paul would have made it top priority in their time of ministry. However, I see no great importance placed on it. I take issue with the fact that this man was basically told that being baptized was what it took to make his teaching ministry valid.

People miss some very important points when it comes to ministering for Christ.

1. Jesus’ water baptism was done to ‘fulfill [obey] all righteousness.’ (Matthew 3:15, NKJV)

2. ‘the Spirit of God descend[ed] like a dove and alighting upon Him.’ (Matthew 3:16, NKJV)

3. It pleased God. (Matthew 3:15-17)

It is chapter four (of Matthew) that most people disregard when it comes to ministry. Matthew 4 tells us that Jesus ‘was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.’ (Matthew 4:1, NKJV) Most people don’t even acknowledge this as a part of the preparation of Jesus for the great ministry that lie ahead of him.

Ministering for Jesus is a wonderful thing but before it/ministry comes, we must be tested and tried. Even Jesus, the Son of God had to take this path - are we better than Him? Will we be strong enough in the Spirit, at the weakest moment in the flesh, to defeat our adversary? The people that we will teach and lead are depending on it. We see all these things taking place in the life of Jesus in Matthew 3-4, then come the Beatitudes (‘Then He opened His mouth and taught them’ (Matthew 5:2, NKJV)) in chapter five.

Comment by Loren

July 7, 2007 @ 8:01 am

I have been married to a Southern Baptist pastor for 10 years. In the past 2 years, I have been very dissatisfied with the church. Thankfully, this website and blog is available. I was raised Catholic with three brothers. My father had always told me I could be and do whatever I chose to do. He never once told me I had to be under his protective covering until I was married, then I would be under my husbands.

I have shared some of the information I have learned about the equality of women with my husband. Amazingly, he believes that I am being rebellious, that I am releasing myself from under his protective covering. I asked him to provide the scriptures that would support his statement. He could not.

I had studied Precepts-Marriage without Regrets by Kay Arthur before marrying him. As a result, I believed, according to those teachings, that I was supposed to be submissive to my husband. It went against every grain of my being, but I wanted to be spiritual about it and believe that if I were married to a godly-enough man, the Lord would protect me and bless me.

I am at a serious crossroads. He is pastoring a small country church. I believe I would be hypocritical if I were to attend the church now that I see how the SBC has supported the inferior position of the woman.

Has anybody been married to a pastor, and was compelled by the Holy Spirit to leave the church? What does this message convey to my two young daughters (9 and 7)? Can I stay in a marriage like this? Please e-mail me privately with any personal comments.

Comment by Liz

July 13, 2007 @ 3:20 am

Hi Lauren. I’m sorry I haven’t read this earlier and maybe you have had some really encouraging replies by now, but if you would still like to talk some more I would be happy to email you. Not sure how to get your address but I imagine the moderators would have it.

Comment by JLP

July 14, 2007 @ 2:26 pm

Lauren,

Have you thought about seeing a counselor who understands the situation you are in? One who understands both the Southern Baptist church and egalitarianism? One who can hopefully help you work through your dilemna.

I’m glad you shared your beliefs with your husband. If he has believed this way for a long time it may take him a while to understand them.

Comment by JLP

July 14, 2007 @ 2:33 pm

Lauren,

I made a mistake in the past. I’ve been impatient with people who disagreed with me on egalitarianism. I’m glad I shared my egalitarian beliefs, but I wish I had been much more pleasant in the way the I did. In case you are at all like me (and you may not be), be as patient as you can with your husband on the egalitarian issue. This is one issue some people need time (even years) to adjust to.

The key is to be willing to disagree about the issue, and yet be kind to those who are angry at you for no longer holding the traditional views about women.

Comment by Sandy

July 14, 2007 @ 2:38 pm

Lauren,

I’m a former SBCer myself. I was ordained in an SBC church only 4 months before the latest BF&M said you couldn’t do that anymore.

One possibility is to look into other Baptist organizations. CBF and Alliance are both ones I’m familiar with and could recommend. Though I do not know that I’d be able to continue to attend a church that believed I was inferior either.

I have to admit, I don’t know what I would do if I were in your shoes. Please know that I will add you to my personal prayer list. I’d also be glad to talk with you. If you want to get my e-mail address from the moderators, I give them permission to give it to you.

Comment by JLP

July 14, 2007 @ 2:38 pm

Loren (This time I finally spelled your name right),

Here is an egalitarian discussion website you may find encouraging:

http://www.equalitycentral.com/forum/YaBB.pl

You may want to go there to converse with other egalitarians over your dilemna.

Comment by Diane

July 15, 2007 @ 3:01 pm

Loren, I just wanted you to know I’m praying that God would continue to comfort, guide, uplift, and to send others who can console you with the consolation of Christ. God bless you

Comment by Lori

July 16, 2007 @ 5:09 am

Loren, I fully sympathize because I face a similar situation myself.

In the summer of 2000, I moved to Texas and joined a large SB church in my city. It had been recommended to me because of its strong singles’ program. I attended the church and loved it. The people were wonderful and I made a lot of friends.

At the time I joined, I heard rumbling about some disagreement over some “faith statement.” However, having not been raised SB, I figured it was an internal denominational matter and didn’t pursue it. Only after I married and moved to Great Britain in 2004 did I learn that the disagreement was over women! You see, my church never talked about gender issues. Never. They had an all-male staff, so I kind of figured they frowned on women ministers. But they simply never made any big deal about gender issues, so I didn’t know it was a big deal with the rest of the SBC.

Fast forward to the present. My husband and I are getting ready to move back to my old city in the States, and I am really torn. I love my old church, but I simply can’t attend on a regular basis anymore. Not now that I know what the SBC thinks of women. I was particularly horrified by the Sherri Klouda affair* earlier this year. I simply cannot pay tithing money to a denomination that would treat a woman in such a disgusting manner.

So my husband and I are thinking of a compromise. My parents like to rave about the non-demom church that they attend. If this church treats women well, then we’ll probably settle into it, too, and simply visit my old church occasionally to stay in touch with my friends. I’m running through a whole gamut of emotions, however: sadness that I can no longer fellowship with my friends on a regular basis, anger that I had to make this choice, etc.

As for your personal situation, Loren, I agree with JLP (60158). I would continue with your outward life, but privately grow strong in your egalitarian beliefs. If the opportunity arises, discuss your beliefs in a loving and non-confrontational manner. Otherwise, I wouldn’t make a big deal about it or it will just bring division and unhappiness into your life.

I wish I could reccommend a book called [em]Dance of the Dissident Daughter[/em] to you, since it mirrors your situation. The author Sue Monk Kidd was raised a Baptist and married a Baptist minister. She really became unhappy with the patriarchal teaching of her church, and went on a journey of self-discovery away from them. Her husband was very uncomfortable with this at first and resisted, but eventually came around when he saw how much more at peace his wife was when she resisted the patriarchal system. Unfortunately, the author turned to Goddess-worship, which is why I won’t urge you to read it. I don’t want you to get in trouble with your husband.

Comment by Lori

July 16, 2007 @ 5:12 am

Oh, blast, I forgot to explain about the Klouda affair. She had been teaching biblical languages at Southwestern Seminary, when they “suddenly” had their consciences pricked and realized women weren’t supposed to be teaching men. Therefore, they up and fired her. I believe Ms. Klouda is now suing. The whole thing makes me so mad I could spit.

Comment by Loren

July 23, 2007 @ 7:37 am

I am overwhelmed by the kindness and support extended to me during these challenging times. Thank you!

I am in the process of reading, personal study, and prayer, along with the typical motherhood, and starting a private practice for speech therapy. My husband still believes that I am rebellious. My prayer for him is that he, too, will study the Scriptures closely. My greatest hope is that he will become egalitarian in his beliefs. Who knows what the future holds, but we simply need to take it one day at a time. After all, the Lord promises to take care of our daily needs - and I trust him to keep his promises.

Thanks again!