The CBE Scroll

Comment by dave

August 12, 2007 @ 9:52 pm

Good question.

I would go a step further and ask men who are opposed to the oppression of women why they often stay in churches that oppress women.

I know that I no longer do so. When I moved to Chicago last summer and began looking for a church, one of my non-negotiables was that the church must affirm the full equality of women.

Comment by Christy

August 13, 2007 @ 5:50 am

Though it’s not a complex answer, some of us have nowhere else to go. I am in that condition now. In our area, to my knowledge only the more liberal churches allow women freedom. But I am not a liberal. Perhaps God is forcing some of us out of established churches in order to start new fellowships (house churches and other new church plants). To do so takes boldness and great sacrifice. Not everyone is up to the task… but perhaps some are.

Comment by Terri

August 13, 2007 @ 6:41 am

Most often a woman’s faith and love for Jesus trumps the contradictory signals of inequality that she receives from the leaders, deacons, etc. It’s an issue of faith that compels women to continue to seek God even in an environment that openly and unashamedly continues to discriminate against their femininity. We must remember that it is not women’s faith in Jesus that has caused the damage and opposition in our churches to us, it has been the bickering/disagreements between the men about women’s roles through the centuries that have brought us to where we are today.

I must say, even in the small conservative church that I attend my gift for singing/teaching keeps me in demand, but that same church never wants my advice or opinion when it concerns church affairs (men only). Does it make me angry? Yes, but Jesus said to be angry and sin not. Do I feel like I am being used? Sometimes. Does it alter or cause me to lose my faith in Jesus because of how I have been treated? No. Christian woman that are full of faith must guard that faith against the thief, who first comes to steal, then to kill, then to destroy. Jesus uses people to influence us, but so does the devil. You always need to be vigilant to guard your faith from those who would try to tear it down.

I find my faith a source of strength that helps me to deal with the contradictions to my femininity in the church. Now, don’t get me wrong, you have to let God direct your stops as well as your starts when it concerns speaking to leaders about women’s issues. Be led by the spirit (peace, truth) and not by your flesh (angry, defensiveness) and God will bring about change.

I have questioned my pastor about the exclusion of women from the business of the church (in which they pay tithes), and he informed me that women could not discuss things without arguing. What I found was that he was stating his experience with a few women and imposing that negative experience on all women. I have also heard men say, ‘women are all alike,’ that comment is not meant to be complimentary.

We cannot deny the fact that women by the hundreds of thousands attend church and report their faith to be a positive part of their lives, and sometimes the only positive thing. We all know the equalizing presence of the Holy Ghost has to be the one to open the blinded eyes of our brothers in this area. If any man is seeking after truth (esp. about women’s place in the church) with a pure heart, he will surely find it, as evidenced by the many men who participate in CBE. Jesus said if you seek me you will find me, Likewise, with truth, seek after it and you will find it.

Comment by LMcC

August 13, 2007 @ 10:22 am

Oh boy, a question I can answer from way too much experience.

First, part of my answer is the same as Christy’s in comment 63362. I live in Nashville, and the Southern Baptist influence is so strong that even some of the charismatic churches that are known for allowing women in ministry have moved to hierarchal practices. This could be said for much of the Southeastern United States, but I’ve never seen anything like this town.

Second, some of us have come out of churches even more oppressive than where we are now. I went from Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) churches to the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) back in 1997, and the women were then treated so much better in the SBC than anything I’d ever seen. I did not discover biblical equality until 2001, so what I saw in the pre-2000 SBC church was progressive for me.(Ironically, my former IFB church now has a female music minister, and the SBC… let’s say the Orlando conference of 2000 wasn’t good for women. How did that switch happen?) Up until last year, even the increasing crush I felt in the SB church was still better than my previous experiences.

The third reason ties in a little bit with the first. Even though there isn’t much of an option for conservative Christian egalitarians to find good supportive churches, we can find decent-sized groups of egalitarians in some congregations. Where I am now is like that. It’s technically SBC, but the pastor is at worst a very weak complementarian, and at best possibly a closet egalitarian. He has never preached on sex roles since Hubby and I showed up. The congregation is mostly under twenty-five and somewhat politically liberal, so the whole sex roles argument seems silly to them. Many of the older members (as in over thirty-five, in this case) are egalitarians. It’s probably about as safe a spot for an egalitarian as can possibly exist in this area. Unless and until another option opens up, we can deal where we are.

Comment by PS

August 13, 2007 @ 12:13 pm

My friend started playing piano and organ at her home church when she was about sixteen. She was in demand and played at several churches for many years. She eventually was the organist and secretary at a church that gave equality to women where the pastor urged her to continue her schooling and become rostered. She did. Her home church recently had a hundred-year anniversary. She was invited to play piano, but, pointedly, not to speak. She declined. Wouldn’t you say that is like saying she hasn’t grown in thirty-six years?

Comment by JLP

August 13, 2007 @ 3:49 pm

Regarding what Terri (see comment 63364) said:

Most often a woman’s faith and love for Jesus trumps the contradictory signals of inequality that she receives from the leaders, deacons, etc. It’s an issue of faith that compels women to continue to seek God even in an environment that openly and unashamedly continues to discriminate against their femininity.

That definitely explains my experience. I don’t know how better to put it.

Regarding what PS (see comment 63382) said:

She was invited to play piano, but, pointedly, not to speak. She declined. Wouldn’t you say that is like saying she hasn’t grown in thirty-six years?

The church probably doesn’t consider what she has to say as important because she is a woman. Many times I have seen situations in which both the husband and the wife are in a specific ministry together - yet when a church wants to hear about their ministry - they only invite the husband to speak. Obviously they consider what a woman has to say does not have the same value as what a man has to say. Yet, these very same churches claim they think women are equal to men.

Comment by Jan

August 14, 2007 @ 5:01 pm

Women stay in these churches because there are almost no egalitarian churches to provide an option. I’m in Colorado Springs - none here, none that are giving more than lip-service to egalitarianism, anyway. The other choice is to leave the church altogether, and I believe that many women are/have done that. See a very interesting book, Wicca’s Charm - a study about why women leave Christianity and go into Wicca. Pretty sad commentary on the patriarchal church, no? Personally, I am in a church despite, not because of, its doctrine.

Comment by Craighton

August 14, 2007 @ 5:09 pm

Looking for answers on why to stay is why I got involved with CBE and why I helped start this blog. Our church is part of a denomination that ordains women and encourages them at all levels in the hierarchy. They also allow a certain amount of disagreement on the issue and some flouting of the rules (it just can’t be in writing, as in the church bylaws). Two of our pastors are complementarian, including the senior pastor, and one is egalitarian. While the senior pastor has not changed his views much over time, at least I’ve had some impact on his realizing that telling gender-insensitive jokes is not wise. Despite his new realization that ‘sending the wrong message’ is something maybe he’d better not do, his gender insensitivity leaks through every pore and continues to add to his poor reputation in the community and with some women in the church, including some elders’ wives who know ‘he has this problem.’ It’s just plain embarrassing for my wife to admit to anyone in her professional circles that she is associated with this place.

Women are not kept from very much at our church. They can lead ministries, lead singing, read the Bible passages at worship, teach adult Sunday school and small groups, pass the bread and wine and the offering basket; what they haven’t yet been allowed to do is to serve on the church board, as either deacon or elder. Nothing is in writing that says they can’t - the pastor just gently nudges the voting members so it’s never happened so far. Since my wife clearly is a leader, you can imagine how we feel about this.

So why do we continue to go to this church? It’s a mission church that we have helped grow. The gospel is preached and many, many people have been won to Christ - way more than any other church we’ve been closely involved with. In general, the church is a can-do place, where we think creatively, do things differently, while keeping a Bible-centered focus. It’s been a fun place to serve, to see miracles in people’s lives, to make a difference in the kingdom. Should we give that up just because we have a deep disappointment in the depth of our souls? Is any church perfect, just like we’d like to have it? When I join, it’s not so perfect anymore, is it?

Do I speak my piece? Yes, when it’s appropriate. Are more people persuaded by agreeable soft talk and gentle persuasive arguments or by shouting and strong-arm tactics? I’m not sure, but I’m throwing my efforts behind CBE and their supporters who seem to prefer the former.

Comment by fjs

August 18, 2007 @ 8:48 am

I’m all for starting new churches that are evangelical and egalitarian. I am frankly tired of evangelical faith that limits the humanity of women. I’ve experienced enough discounting, enough of stereotyping, enough… I think there must be enough people out there who would gather together and begin a church with a real vision for gender reconciliation, egalitarian marriage and the life-changing gospel of Jesus Christ.

Comment by Mary

August 18, 2007 @ 2:15 pm

I know that not everyone is willing to even consider mainline congregations, but I am blessed to be a member of and work in one. Biblical equality is a ‘given,’ written into our ‘Book of Discipline’ and lived out in our community life. We have many flaws, which I suspect is true of any congregation or group of congregations, and plenty of people’s uncrossable lines fall to the other side of where we are (not ‘evangelical’ enough, infant baptism, too much grace and not enough law, etc.), but again I rejoice that God’s Holy Spirit is alive and well in the United Methodist congregation in which I serve the risen Christ.

Comment by Karen

August 18, 2007 @ 4:03 pm

Fortunately for me, when I started to embrace the egalitarian message our church was also in the midst of getting a new pastor. Our new pastor was supportive of the egalitarian message. He has always encouraged those that attend the church to be open to new thoughts. Some of the things that I have received from this pastor are the ability to actually question ‘the way it has always been done’ and an encouragement to think for myself.

The question at hand is an interesting one because in our church shortly after the pastor came he, along with the other elders, made a change to the constitution. This was that the church elders could be men or women - it was a simple changing of a word that specified the male gender (he, him) to ‘they’ or ‘them’ which was inclusive of both genders. When this happened we had several families leave our congregation because they no longer could worship where women might have the opportunity to be leaders. They saw this as contrary to Scripture and an embracing of the culture which will inevitably pull us all down the slippery slope! Comments such as ‘What will be next - a gay pastor?’ were made. It was a difficult time for us as a congregation, but the elders stood their ground, took the losses, and today I believe we are stronger as a body for it.

Why do some egalitarians continue to stay in a congregation if they persist on limiting women in the church? Perhaps it is because we are still the minority in many circles. Many of us can relate to what it was to be complementarian in our thinking and realize that there is still hope for those who seem stuck in their thinking. My thought is that if you have opportunity to change where you worship, then that’s great - if not, make the best of your circumstances and use every opportunity to broaden peoples’ thinking - always in love - just like CBE encourages us to do.

Comment by Leslie

August 21, 2007 @ 5:04 pm

Shoot - I accidentally hit the ‘submit comment’ space and I hadn’t finished.

If I remember correctly, I was describing that moment I felt accepted in my womanhood. I was reminded that there is both masculine and feminine imagery in the Bible describing God, wisdom is referred to as feminine, and there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus and equality for all believers. What a blessed moment - an answer to prayer, I believe. I’ve been reading a great book, Letters to a Young Evangelical, by Tony Campolo, one I want to pass on to my children to read when they are in high school. To me, this book makes my faith sane to me. Pre-egalitarian, my faith seemed a little insane. Thanks for reading and sharing…

Comment by Leslie

August 21, 2007 @ 5:17 pm

Regarding the above comment 64131, I guess the beginning of my comment was lost in cyberspace, but I was referring to Karen’s comment about her church making positive changes. How exciting that is. I became a Christian later in life and the message I received from the conservative church I attended was that an egalitarian view was anti-biblical and a slippery slope to accepting all kinds of liberal practices. My husband and I left that church after twelve years. I remember praying ‘What if I really am a second-class citizen? Maybe I am being deceived.’ I felt a peace and love deep in my being (my soul), and what was brought to my mind was what I commented on in my previous comment (see comment 64131). I hope this isn’t too confusing to read. I hope that our family can find an egalitarian church to attend. I look forward to both feminine and masculine points of view - together as equal children of God.

Comment by Jon

September 4, 2007 @ 1:21 pm

I feel quite deeply about CBE. I feel quite deeply about the fact - not stupid pseudo-biblical theory - that our churches are full of wise, pastoral women filled with the wine of God. I know such women, in CBE and outside of it. I am pastored by two such women and am blessed within the intentional community context (Jesus People USA) my dearling and I inhabit to have many other female examples of godly wisdom, power, and love living there with us.

Here is my story. I grew up in a liberal church. So liberal, that when as a non-Christian I asked my pastor what he meant when he said the word ‘God,’ he responded (exact words) ‘Well, Jon… there are many roads to Rome.’ Did it matter if Jesus existed? Apparently not, it turned out. Did it matter if the Scriptures were even partially God’s Word, much less inspired? Apparently not.

I left that very liberal Methodist Church after meeting Christ, despite being begged by a Christian aunt to stay a member there. Her idea was to redeem that fellowship one day. I tried to explain to her that as a new believer I was far, far too hungry to be able to live on a starvation diet such as that offered by the pastor.

Fast forward. I had joined Jesus People USA (JPUSA) in 1977 after a brief and aborted career as a Gordon College student. JPUSA when I joined was confusing about gender. We had female pastors, but initially didn’t call them that. We went with a soft hierarchy when it came to marriage. But slowly, in part because of work done via Cornerstone magazine on the ERA amendment and thus history (uh, ‘herstory’ actually), we began awakening to the reality that perhaps we needed another look at Scripture.

In short, we moved from a mix of egalitarian and soft complementarian ideas to a fully-realized egalitarian/mutualist position.

But what if we had not? What if we’d gone the way of the Southern Baptists?

At some point, I sincerely believe, there comes a moment when we have to - for our own spiritual health as well as our witness and the health of our family if we have one - leave an unrepentant fellowship. I realize ‘unrepentant’ is a harsh term… one could replace it with ‘a fellowship in whom we have too many grave disagreements in faith and practice.’ But for me, being the rather confrontational soul I am, I do in this case go with ‘unrepentant.’

Part of this is because I do have two daughters. I will not be part of a fellowship that makes sure they learn how to cook and says if they don’t it will mean the destruction of our nation. (Frankly, the issue of nationalism itself does come into play here… but this is only a comment, not an N.T. Wright book (hahahahaha…).)

Part of this is because I have a wife who in nearly every respect fulfills the traditional roles of a woman. She is glad for this, and likes it, and feels called to a set of ministries many would call ‘traditional.’ But all the more because she feels called to those ministries, and I support her in them, I must and will totally reject anyone who would limit her to said set of ministries. She speaks directly into my life, often with what I call ‘an oracle of God.’ How could I listen to her fully and deeply ponder what she told me if in fact I believed that I was created for God and she was created for me; I was created to lead, she created to follow; I was created to speak out, she created to maintain silence?

No. No.

I would have to leave such a church and in leaving make it clear that I believe they are sinning against women by their doctrine and their practice, and that such a sin will come back to haunt them and to damage the cause of Jesus Christ. I left a theologically liberal Methodist Church who denied the gospel story. And I would, in the end, leave a conservative church which had in turn denied the full power of the gospel to at least half of its parishioners.

I have very close and personal reasons for my absolute abhorrence of patriarchal theologies, reasons I cannot go into here. Suffice it to say my reaction of loathing is not only rooted in intellectual and historical considerations, but also in profoundly personal ones. If Jesus were the sort of gawd these patriarchal folk think he is, I for one would not be worshipping and adoring him. Because he is the God of mutuality, of love, and of community, I do so worship.

Comment by JLP

September 4, 2007 @ 4:41 pm

Well said, Jon (see comment 66165).

There’s a lot of heart breaking stories that could be told about the damage patriarchy caused to the Christian community. Some of them are quite horrific. I hope one day that people who saw and witnessed these things will begin to open up about them and share them freely.

I can’t even begin to start talking about the emotional damage the teaching of male hierarchy did to my life. Freedom began for me when I left those beliefs behind and found out what the Bible really said about women.

That’s why I post so much. I want to save other women the pain I went through.

Comment by leigh

September 6, 2007 @ 5:02 pm

I’m not judging egalitarian folks for staying in patriarchal churches - life is way too complex for me to do that. So the following is in the spirit of sharing my own experience, my own take on things. (And it is said with the understanding that if all the egalitarians leave patriarchal churches, how would that impact the possibility for change, therein?)

I didn’t consciously or intellectually believe in ‘male headship,’ but I also was not educated in theology (formally or informally) so that I could more securely, and actively, oppose it. I could and did only voice my opinion occasionally, and not get taken seriously, in response.

Having been in that situation, and now having worked to educate myself about what God actually thinks of women, I recognize what an impact being in such an environment can have on people. Even those who don’t consciously believe in ‘male headship,’ or consciously put it into practice… The detrimental impact is still there, potentially at a subconscious level.