The CBE Scroll

Comment by Tami

October 24, 2007 @ 7:42 am

Not only do I love my father dearly, but he is the biggest reason that I am an egalitarian. He’s the one who instilled in me the belief that I am valuable and that my gifts are valuable to the body of Christ.

He is a strong man who is definitely the leader of the home, but he has honored my mother in such a way that they two of them are partners in the journey of life, not one over the other. It’s from my father that I learned that the only head we need is Christ.

Comment by Janna

October 24, 2007 @ 9:37 am

My father is one of the main reasons I am egalitarian as well. More than anyone in my life he believed in me. He was the one who thought I could do anything and be anything. He spoke life over my dreams and ambitions and has encouraged me all along the way. He saw greatness in me and through that I came to understand how God sees me.

Comment by tiro

October 24, 2007 @ 11:49 am

My father always believed the best of me and that anything was possible for me. There were no limits on my potential and I could survive anything… after all I had his genes in me!

My stepfather, on the other hand, tried to tear me down, limit me, and assign my greatest value to my sexuality.

My father’s influence allowed me to safely trust God with my whole heart, soul, mind, and body.

Comment by Lin

October 24, 2007 @ 12:43 pm

Thanks for this topic! My dad died when I was thirteen, but here is what I remember:

A man who was my mom’s biggest cheerleader and supporter in her musical career.

A man who when he got home, if mom was not there (she was always at church) started dinner and quite frankly was a better cook than her.

A man who was a man’s man… a business executive… but one who thought my mom was brilliant and treated her that way.

I did not know it at the time but my dad’s behavior was very egalitarian. I cannot even imagine him assigning a role to my mom and I cannot imagine her going for it either. They were deeply in love. When he got sick, she quit everything without complaint and was by his side until he died two years later.

Comment by Sue

October 24, 2007 @ 12:53 pm

My father is why I am an egalitarian. He worked very hard to take care of his family, and he treated my mother with great deference and respect. He was a humble, gracious man who taught me the importance of treating others right and maintaining integrity by demonstrating these qualities in his relationships with others. He saw the best in people. My dad was passionate about his Christian faith and did his best to live his life according to his beliefs. This was especially true when he was diagnosed with terminal cancer. Dad clung to his faith during a year of a brutal illness, and he trusted his Savior to sustain him and meet him at his death and take him to heaven. Dad died at peace. I only wish we could have had him longer so my kids could get to know him as I did.

My dad is the reason patriarchalism was such a shock to me. Dad never claimed or expected any rights or privileges for himself because he was male. He believed everyone is equal in the sight of God, and that’s how he treated everyone.

I am so blessed that my children have a dad with all those same attributes. An egalitarian dad doesn’t teach his daughters to stay within limitations; he teaches them to live life to their fullest capacity!

Comment by PS

October 24, 2007 @ 3:52 pm

Well, my dad was the reason I also believe in egalitarianism. Unfortunately, that is true for the reasons opposite of those mentioned in the above comments. I figured, better to never marry than end up in that type of marriage. My mom is a strong person, but she was taught what she was taught; that’s just the way it was. Fortunately, I saw that the women could still have a rich life when they were away from the men.

I did find a great guy who respects women. I’ve been married thirty-four years. Quite frankly, the times we’ve had marital problems is when he has slipped into a unilateral decision making mode and I’ve not been strong enough, due to other personal problems, to stand up for myself.

Comment by Trevor

October 24, 2007 @ 5:55 pm

My dad was also one who didn’t limit what I could do as a child just because I was a girl. He taught me to chop wood, help in the shed (so much to amuse a child) play tennis, swim, ride a bike, write invoices for his business (as soon as I could write neatly), and type. He also demonstrated to me that people were special and that everyone was the same inside no matter what color their skin was.

He cared for my mum throughout her illnesses and I don’t remember him ever complaining. ‘Head of the home’ was never mentioned at our place.

Comment by Liz

October 25, 2007 @ 4:07 am

Just realized that the previous comment (71865) was not Trevor – I forgot to change the name! Trevor’s dad was the exact opposite of the person I described!

Comment by Janet

October 25, 2007 @ 2:37 pm

My dad is the reason that I believe in egalitarianism.

My dad was an abusive, emotionally withdrawn, God-despising man with a warped view of women and thought that they caused all the evil in the world. He had a terribly abusive childhood himself. He taught me that my only value was to serve a husband and be slim and good looking.

Yet, it was this very darkness in my life (as an unbeliever) that made me seek out the light of truth; to search for ‘the something better.’

If my dad had been kind to me and taught me my only value was to be pretty and cater to a husband, then I might have believed in it, and lived my life like so many women (both unbelieving and Christian) do, who were taught wrong beliefs in a kind way. They succcumb to the lies.

It is amazing, but I am so grateful to God for my past. For as an unbeliever, I am not sure how kindness from parents who downplayed women (to this day) would have helped me turn away from such teaching.

God’s ways are beautiful in paradox.

Is kindness only good if done with right teaching?

Comment by Liz

October 26, 2007 @ 12:21 am

What a profound question, Janet.

I think that perfect kindness must go along with right teaching, but as humans we show degrees of kindness and we are not always consistent, so there can be a kind attitude with wrong teaching.

Is kindness good if done with wrong teaching?

I guess so, because kindness, meekness, gentleness, self control, etc. are fruits of the Spirit and are good in and of themselves. Mostly, wrong teaching goes along with wrong attitudes, but Jesus was always concerned with what came out of people’s hearts where the pharisees were more concerned with correct teaching.

Comment by Janet

October 26, 2007 @ 8:57 am

P.S. Also, I love my dad. I think Jesus helps me to love him. My dad did the best with what he had learned. And in Jesus changing me, I have seen some changes in him, too.

He phones me now, which he never use to, just to talk. God is so good. I can only hope that my dad will accept Christ before he dies – he is seventy-five.

Comment by Janet

October 26, 2007 @ 9:07 am

Hi Liz, thanks for your response. I find it strange this distinguishing between Jesus and the heart, and the Pharisees and correct teaching. Jesus taught correctly, the Pharisees did not, because their inside (heart) didn’t match their outside. Jesus taught correctly because his heart matched his words.

I think of what the book of Revelation says about the antichrist, how he will be so charismatic and charming yet draw many people, including believers, into darkness. And I have seen in churches today how many women will choose good treatment, kindness, and soft, cushy welcoming churches over sound teaching.

Yes, I agree with you there are degrees of kindness. My dad can be kind too – he was a great provider (food, shelter, clothing). But was that enough?

Comment by Janet

October 26, 2007 @ 1:23 pm

Also, CBE is about correct teaching and I am so grateful.

Certainly all the stories about dads above that not only taught and encouraged their daughters to be what God intended them to be, but were kind in their teaching and encouragement, is the ultimate life for any female child. A dad does have a huge impact in a girl’s life.

Comment by Liz

October 26, 2007 @ 9:21 pm

When I said the Pharisees were intent on correct teaching, I meant what they considered ‘correct’ teaching. Also I just thought of 1 Corinthians 13 which we sometimes call the ‘love chapter,’ and in the first verses it says we can be ‘perfect’ in so many ways, but if we don’t have love we are nothing. Now, if have have good teaching and love, well that is wonderful.

Comment by Karen T

October 26, 2007 @ 11:02 pm

I grew up in a traditional home where we would have said dad was the boss. He was extremely self-sacrificial and still is – he’s almost eighty-three now. I know those were the examples that helped me realize that it isn’t about who thinks he’s in charge but rather its about who will serve, give, and lay down their life for the other. Dad was the bread winner and mom the homekeeper but for my dad the boundries were not so definite. He was often the one to care for us kids in the middle of the night if we were scared or ill. He often helped with cleaning and he played with us kids a lot.

More then ever, I think that the part of my dad’s character that encouragd me to ‘check the waters’ of egalitarianism was that he was always pushing the envelope. If it was traditional teaching, in his mind that was reason enough to question. We were raised in a fundamental Christian church background and he opened up to the ‘other dimension’ of the Holy Spirit. That was very much taboo in our circles. He also dares to look at Scripture in a little different in terms of the end times. He does quite a bit of writing on that topic and even has his own website! So, he is one to dream big dreams and dare to be different in the church. It was because of his example and searching spirit that helped me to be open to such a fresh way of looking at Scriptures in regard to roles and leadership. I gave him the first book that I ever read on this subject about four years ago called ‘Why Not Women?;‘ dad read it; endorsed it and gave it to his pastor to read.

I praise God for my dad.

Comment by Trevor

October 27, 2007 @ 9:13 am

In an earlier comment, where Liz mistakenly left my name instead of her own, she corrected it by saying that my Dad was the exact opposite of hers. That’s true! But my dad was a product of his times and his own sad upbringing, not that you can appreciate that as a child. It seemed to me that he was a hard task-master and could be overly cruel when dispensing discipline at the height of his anger. He wasn’t that way with the younger children so for me it was a first born thing, as I was five years older than the next sibling. Angry people can be very passionate, and loving, rising and subsiding quickly in expressing both emotions. As a child I found that very confusing. Dad was very much an other people person who would do anything for anybody, without respect of persons and had earned the admiration of many in our neighbourhood.

He was anti the church. So much so that, as a teenager, I rebelled against parental influence to become a part of a christian community. Later I was to discover that Dad had had a bad experience with the Plymouth Brethren as a young man and had vowed that he would never darken the doors of a church again. He so hated the church that he discouraged any family member from ever being involved.

It was that sense of being denied a loving and just fathering that caused me to hunger for a heavenly Father. I loved being in the homes of my school friends who were church goers. I loved the way their families interacted and the presence of caring fathers. It caused me to believe that God had orchestrated that and that he could and would love like that. So my own less than perfect experience caused me to hunger for a relationship with the true and living God. I have never been disappointed and wanted to model my own fathering on God, the perfect parent.

Fortunately my Dad and I were able to talk about my childhood disappointments and make our peace well before he died. He still never went to church, though he did accompany me, his pastor son, on a couple of occasions, and assured me that he knew how to be right with God. So we left it at that. In the end he admitted that he had a profound respect for the way that our family enjoyed life and that he wished that it could have been that way for him too.

Thankfully I’ve never held bitterness against my father but saw this upbringing as the means God used to draw me to himself.

Comment by Lisa

October 30, 2007 @ 8:02 am

While my father is not yet a believer, I was very much a daddy’s girl growing up. I grew up in a family where we went to church every Sunday. My brother and I attended catechism classes. But we never prayed together as a family or read the Bible. My father is definitely not a complementarian. My dad and I are very similar in terms of our personality. In my fact, my mom often tells me ‘You are just like your father.’ I have never questioned my father’s love for me. I love him just as much. There are so many special memories I have of my father.

The first thing that is truly special between my father and I is when he slow dances with me at weddings. It doesn’t happen at every wedding, but it always means so much to me when he does ask me. It makes me feel cared for and special. I also believe that is a special way of showing me he loves me. He doesn’t always express it as much as I would like him to. But like I said, I have never doubted or questioned his love for me.

Another special memory that I have of my father has to do with Valentine’s Day. Every year, my dad would come home with two bouquets of flowers. One for my mother (of course) but also a bouquet for me. As a little girl, I just assumed that this was something all fathers did for their daughters. It wasn’t until I became a teenager that I realized it was something very special my father was doing for me. So one year, I asked him. I told him I understood why he would buy flowers for my mom on Valentine’s Day. But I told him I was curious why he always bought a bouquet for me too. Then he told me the story. One year on Valentine’s Day he gave some flowers to my mom. He said that I asked him ‘So where are my flowers?’ So from that year on, he always bought us each a bouquet. Even though I am now thirty-one years old. My father still buys me a bouquet of flowers of Valentine’s Day and on my birthday, since I’m not married or even dating anyone right now. It always means a lot to me that my father does that. Even though I consider myself an egalitarian now. That doesn’t in any way change my love for my father.

Comment by Lolly

November 2, 2007 @ 5:25 pm

My father is absolutely the reason I am an egalitarian today. He and my mother are both strong Christians, but they never insisted on everybody in the family having a ‘role.’ Rather, my sisters and I were encouraged to find our strengths and follow our dreams. I come from something of a non-traditional family: my middle sister loves math, my younger sister is a computer geek, and I’m very outspoken. Not once did we ever hear, though, that it was inappropriate for girls to love those things or be that way. That sense of freedom gave me the courage to study for the ministry.

And my parents also modeled gift-based serving. For instance, my mother is much more organized than my Dad, so she naturally took over the family finances. That kind of example has really helped my sisters and I in our own marriages today.

Comment by Deb

November 2, 2007 @ 7:37 pm

How fascinating that one could assume someone’s egalitarian theology was because of some kind of poor or less-than-idyllic relationship with one’s father! I had never heard that urban legend before!

My father died in 2000, about five years before I went back to seminary. Yet, according to my mom, he not only would have been supportive, he would have been pleased to see me complete the studies I started in my twenties. He was strict, yes, but caring; demanding but full of generosity.

I find the whole premise amusing. And probably untrue overall.

Comment by Rev. Carlene

November 2, 2007 @ 10:57 pm

I am an egalitarian who loved my daddy. He was my birthday buddy because I was born on his birthday (January 8). He’s the one who, when I was somewhere around five watched in horror as I slipped off the side of the cellar stairs and fell head first onto the concrete floor. I’ll never forget his shocked look, the sheet white face and how he ran down the stairs, immediately picked me up and walked me around the cellar so I would stay conscious (I got a concussion). Then he faithfully took me to doctor appointments while I was recovering.

I went to a combination trade and high school. I started out in fashion design because back in the seventies girls weren’t encouraged to do anything non-traditional (my other option was hairdressing). But I really wanted to be a tool and die maker like my daddy. I ended up in machine drafting. Anyway, it was just down the street from where my dad was working at the time. One day I rode in with him and he took me to the shop first to show me what he did. We’d sometimes go to the restaurant where I worked part-time, and we’d sit in a booth, him with his coffee, me with my tea drawing jigs and fixtures on napkins – talking shop.

Daddy also tried to rescue me from an abusive boyfriend and got injured when he tried to pull me out of the car and my boyfriend drove off with daddy still hanging onto me causing him to sustain a leg injury. The memory of daddy being injured because of me bothered me for years and still does in some ways.

Daddy walked me down the aisle when I married my wonderful husband twenty-seven years ago and loved playing with his two grandkids when we were able to visit (we lived two and a half hours north of him and ma.

Daddy wasn’t especially verbal until his later years, then he would always say ‘I love you’ at the end of any conversation. When we got the chance to travel from Illinois out to see him and ma in Connecticut I’d always get a kiss on the lips, an I love you, and a great hug. Family was very important to him and he was very verbal about that.

The last two months of daddy’s life he was in the hospital and I was and still am living halfway across the country with my family pastoring a church. Due to illness the church graciously gave me a month’s paid leave of absence, so I went back east during that time to be with my daddy for a week. Then when I went back home, I would call him at the hospital often and we had some short but very meaningful conversation, which was wonderful because he’d never been much of a phone talker. Daddy turned ninety while in the hospital and died a few weeks later on January 28 of last year (my older brother’s birthday). Unfortunately, I was still pretty sick at the time and on lots of medication, which stripped me of all emotions and left me numb, so I never got to really grieve for him properly until this year. But I’ll always remember the love of my dad and his wise advice, especially when my daughter, who’s now twenty-five, was going through a rebellious period at nineteen to twenty-three. I was amazed at his understanding of the situation.

Dad wasn’t perfect, but he taught me many things and loved me. I miss him and will always love him.

Comment by jlp

November 2, 2007 @ 11:00 pm

It hurts me when people assume I’m an egalitarian because my father supposedly didn’t treat me well. It puts a negative image on a good man, and that really bothers me.

Comment by Liz

November 2, 2007 @ 11:50 pm

Deb (see comment 72632), I don’t think it could be called an urban legend that some women became egalitarian because of their father’s behavior. It is very common that children do the opposite of what they were taught or modelled growing up. If women or men for that matter were subject to on overbearing parent, then it could help to influence them to be more interested to follow equality as they reach adulthood. On the other hand, as JLP says, not all egalitarian women have had ‘bad’ fathers. Sometimes hierarchalists say that women become egalitarian because their fathers were too soft and didn’t take a lead! So you can’t win – there’s always someone wanting to explain how or why you believe certain things. Better to just ask the person and find out!

Comment by LMcC

November 4, 2007 @ 1:59 pm

So what about those of us who didn’t have a father around at all? After my stepfather died when I was eight, I had no dad around at all, good or bad.

Granted, when he was alive, he was amazing. Everyone just thought I was his. It didn’t hurt that we both had dark hair and a wicked sense of humor. He encouraged me in school, taught me how to hit a softball, and was just tons of fun. He just assumed I was going to college when the time came. He loved my mother very much, and didn’t get hung up on ‘roles’ (that term wasn’t being used much then anyway). Everyone loved to be around him. He was smart, outgoing, funny, knew what he wanted for his family… he really was something else. He accepted Christ less than a year before his death.

Okay, so maybe I did have a good dad around long enough to know what was right. I definitely can see now that my non-Christian/newly Christian stepdad set a much more Christlike example of a loving husband and father than what I saw around church after his passing. If it wasn’t so hard for him to be a good husband and dad – and I was a stepkid! – why is it so tough for hierarchs now?

Comment by Karen T

November 5, 2007 @ 12:51 am

I’d like to believe that we are egalitarian because we have been led into truth by the Holy Spirit. We have taken a look at Scripture as a whole and realized that much of what we were taught in the main stream denominations had been wrong.

If the fact that we are egalitarian is based on a reaction to an abusive or a spineless father it sounds like we have become angry, secular, feminists.

I believe its true that our experiences with others point us in a particular direction but I would never be satisfied that I am an emerging egalitarian because of the injustice I may have experienced in my life.

As I said earlier – my dad was a one to venture out and it was partly those qualities in him that taught me it was okay to swim against the stream. Therefore the foundation was laid for me to receive new truth and act accordingly.

This doesn’t mean that I have all my ducks in a row. My husband is one who doesn’t always know what to do with my new thinking and expression. Its a matter of working out my position daily in my personal life – remembering that change takes time – some times way too long. I can change my thinking but not those that are around me. My marriage wouldn’t seem ‘egalitarian’ to many of you, but it is a work in progress and I believe it is a good work that the Lord has begun and that he will complete it.

Comment by Lori

November 8, 2007 @ 3:09 pm

See comment 72641.

Deb (see comment 72632), I don’t think it could be called an urban legend that some women became egalitarian because of their father’s behavior. It is very common that children do the opposite of what they were taught or modelled growing up. If women or men for that matter were subject to on overbearing parent, then it could help to influence them to be more interested to follow equality as they reach adulthood.

That’s what happened to my husband. His father verbally and sometimes physically abused his mother while he was growing up. My husband at first had a lot of anger towards his father, but learned to forgive him after he (my husband) became a Christian. As a result of his background, blended with his faith, my husband treats me as an equal partner, not somebody he has to control.

Comment by fjs

November 9, 2007 @ 1:29 pm

I don’t like the assumption that if one is an egalitarian one had a father that was abusive… one may have had or may not have had an abusive father. One may have been hurt or may not have been hurt by complementarian teaching or overbearing authoritarian churches. Why does one’s position on this issue mean that one could have defective beliefs because of a bad experience?

The assumption is that if one had a great father, then one would easily accept the complementarian position. And when God heals us, we will return to being complementarian.

My feathers are ruffling… wholeness equals being complementarian. Broken and wounded equals being egalitarian or feminist. Ouch. Another way of being condescending.

For me, understanding that God does not show favorites toward men was incredibly healing. I felt God’s welcome.

Having had hurts does not mean one’s position is wrong or one’s truth is warped. Such is a way of discrediting or dismissing or discounting.

Comment by LMcC

November 9, 2007 @ 5:19 pm

See comment 72981.

It is condescending to be talked to that way, especially when the argument makes no sense.

Saying that woundedness discredits one’s beliefs is just plain wrong. This is a favorite argument for fringe fundamentalists and King James Onlys, and it has been used with devastating effect on people simply testing their beliefs. It takes a lot of life experience to see through it and recognize it for the manipulation it is. Pain and suffering are often what draws people to God in the first place. Does someone who became a Christian after a great trauma deserve to have his or her faith dismissed for that reason? Absolutely not. I hate to say it, but I’m actually suspicious of someone’s beliefs if they haven’t been tried by fire (so to speak). I mean, come on, it’s easy to be a hierarch if you’re the man in charge or if you have a husband or father who does not abuse or micromanage. It’s not easy at all if daddy or hubby does some slapping around and the church seems to put a stamp of approval on his behavior. It’s also really tough when there’s no father or husband at all and personal experience about the strength and competence of women contradicts the lies and cut-downs spread from the pulpit on Sunday. If living a belief does not work and even makes things worse when the chips are down, it deserves some serious re-examination and quite possibly a toss-out.

How on earth could wholeness equal being ‘complementarian’ (misnamed!), a belief (in part) that women cannot be totally fulfilled without being under the thumb of… I mean, completely submitting unilaterally to a man? I know the pain that singles suffer under that belief. I’ve seen the desperate measures some Christian women have taken to catch a man so that they wouldn’t have to be single. I’m watching right now a young person who is going through her second divorce and is already looking for another man to fill the void she believes she has in her life. Traditional views of women in the church do not teach any form of wholeness to women, but an incompleteness without a man. (Strangely, men are not taught that they are incomplete without a woman. Wonder why?)

Biblical equality is healing after dealing with the problems of sexual hierarchy. Biblical equality helps foster true wholeness regardless of one’s marital status. Biblical equality helps bring men and women alike into full spiritual maturity. Biblical equality also just plain works when properly applied. I get heat in this town for my beliefs, but I wouldn’t go back to sexual hierarchy ever again because the benefits and freedom of biblical equality outweigh the problems caused by the resistance to it. I’m not looking back.

Comment by Mary

November 9, 2007 @ 10:51 pm

I think it’s a deliberate strategy. If you dismiss the beliefs of all those who both embrace biblical equality and have abuse in your background (as a child or a spouse), then you can (falsely) claim that there aren’t many egalitarians who chose biblical equality of their own free will; all the rest of us were just ‘deceived’ or ‘damaged’ or whatever. Much easier to do that than to have to face the fact that God brings people to the truth of biblical equality. After all, as you say, LMCC, God breaks through our brokenness and works miracles of healing. How could our good, loving God not transform suffering into a means of revealing truth to us, especially since the equality that is God’s best for us is so very different from the hell that is family violence?

From what I’ve seen recently, there are some patriarchy apologists who will do anything possible – no matter how improbable, antisocial, or false – to discredit biblical equality and those who embrace it. I’m talking about things I’ve witnessed in real life and some of the especially rabid online venues, by the way, not the recent skirmishes on the Scroll. (Those were mild by comparison.)

I look at it this way: when people with such obviously twisted views of the Scriptures react so violently to biblical equality when egalitarians present it to them, it’s just another indication of how godly equality is and how desperate they are to spin their anti-equality beliefs as godly. Some probably do it with sincerity, having been taught that patriarchy is integral to the Gospel. But others malign egalitarians deliberately and maliciously, considering us not even Christian and therefore not deserving of any respect or common decency in their railings against us. Again, I take that as just one of the many signs that we’re ‘on the right track.’ Jesus warned us that we would be reviled just as he was, and for his sake, when we do as he taught and teach others to do the same. He was right; the world (and some Christians) will indeed hate us for it. ‘They all hate their fathers’ or ‘they’re egalitarians just because they refuse to forgive their abusers’ are common, hurtful lies, but imagine how much worse it must be to believe and/or spread such lies!

Comment by Donna

November 10, 2007 @ 6:39 pm

Just a little word from someone who is not in the egalitarian camp. Well, actually, if you talk about the Dorothy L. Sayers kind of egalitarianism, I don’t have very many problems.

Even so, I am one of those patriarchs. Whether my observation is welcome or not you will have to decide. Let me say this, though. Some of the talk in the egalitarian groups sounds anti-male. Some of the talk focuses on bad experiences from the past. Some of it focuses on bad male behavior. That kind of thing gives the impression that some egalitarians have adopted their position as a reaction to heavy-handed patriarchal rule.

Also, pretty much every post in the comments sections includes some negative statement about patriarchy. This makes your position sound even more reactionary than it likely is. Much of what you have said about your fathers is very touching. I am glad to hear it, and it does help to clarify your position and clear up misconceptions. Thank you.

Maybe I won’t get a negative reaction? One could only hope.

Just for your information and for what it’s worth.

Comment by fjs

November 11, 2007 @ 5:38 pm

Why is speaking of one’s experience anti-male? I don’t think the egalitarian position is anti-male at all. It is opposed to a patriarchial view point but it is not anti-male. Men and women are often egalitarians. I see it as pro-human focusing on the human aspect first as what we share in common then differientiating by gender. Roles and tasks are defined by gift, talent, desire, ability – not gender alone. Such is not anti-male but pro men and women and pro use of gift, talent, ability, etc. regardless of gender.

If one has had a bad experience under the complementarian/patriarchial way that does not mean that one considers all men to be abusive. Nor does that mean that one would consider all those with a complimentarian perspective to be abusive.

We are addressing and debating a viewpoint, perspective, or experience about the functions of male/female relationships, not males. Anyone with either perspective may be hurtful or abusive, because of sin.

I believe that the egalitarian perspective helps men and women be more accountable to one another, it helps us to hear one another because there is equal weight on our thoughts and views and it helps us to value ourselves equally because there is not one person assigned to unilaterally rule the relationship.

Comment by Liz

November 11, 2007 @ 7:11 pm

That is so beautifully said FJS. There are so many good statements in your post.

Comment by Donna

November 13, 2007 @ 8:13 pm

We are addressing and debating a viewpoint, perspective, or experience about the functions of male/female relationships, not males. Anyone with either perspective may be hurtful or abusive, because of sin.

Thank you for your kind, reasoned response. I appreciate your allowing me to express my observations.

Comment by LMcC

November 14, 2007 @ 11:09 am

Speaking up about the negative consequences of patriarchy and the bad behavior of patriarchal men is not anti-male. It is anti-bad behavior. That’s an important distinction. Being male is unchangeable, and it should not change. Bad behavior, on the other hand, is very changeable and should change. Never forget this detail.

Standing up against the abuses of patriarchy is holding these self-appointed leaders accountable for their sinful behavior. It is holding them to the standards of Scripture and to the same standards which they expect those beneath them to uphold. Most importantly, it is releasing the current generation of men and women alike from abusive authority and helping the next generation of men and women alike more Christlike and more able to have healthy relationships with one another. Biblical equality helps men, too. It is not anti-male.

This is something that I’ve learned that patriarchal leaders do not understand. To whom much is given, much is required. I had that drilled into my head in traditional churches, but it was inconsistently applied. If these people believe seriously that God gave them power over women, they must also shoulder the responsibility of caring for the women involved, taking responsibility for the direction of the relationship, and not pushing all blame for problems onto the one with no power. Power without responsibility is license for the powerful one to follow his whims without regard to those he claims to rule. Calling for the patriarchs to shoulder the added responsibility that goes along with the power they claim is entirely reasonable and fair. Allowing them to continue to get away with keeping the power for themselves while dumping all of the responsibilities onto the women is a misuse of the assumed power and a recipe for disaster. Yet, if this problem is pointed out, the messenger is anti-male and not anti-bad behavior.

Comment by fjs

November 17, 2007 @ 8:15 am

lMCC, great thoughts, I can validate them wholeheartedly.

Funny thing… at times I have had chances to dialogue with some persons with a patriarchal perspective and share my viewpoint. I have gone overboard to be polite, use polite language, remain non-anxious but forthrightly state my truth. What occurs is that the person with the patriarchial perspective says I am angry or hostile.

I think the dialogue stirs up angry feelings and they can be projected on to the one speaking. It shows a lack of self-awareness.

I think too there is an anxiety about truth as they have always understood it. It rocks the traditional boxes and fear results. They have to please other knowers who have outlined truth for them.

Comment by Amy

November 18, 2007 @ 8:10 pm

My father passed away two years ago. To this day, I am amazed that I wasn’t brought up to believe in ‘woman submits to the husband’ at home. I learned to believe in ‘woman submits to the husband’ at the church and by complementarian authors – it doesn’t matter what church they were – baptist or charismatic! I even told off my parents that my mother should submit to my father.

It took several years to realize the truth to sink in a slow thinker like me. I am glad I learned how to think on my own… few years ago, my father and I had a talk about how we (one boy and four girls) learned to think for ourselves and search for ourselves if this is true or not. My father always believed that we should strive to find out the truth. We looked up to our parents’ example of being a husband and a wife as well as a father and a mother. Yes, they made a lot of mistakes in both roles. And they made an improvement in their marriage and in their roles as parents by submitting to one another in love. There were times they didn’t get along. Most of all, they set an example by showing us their human sides – with all their emotions – negative or positive, with all their thoughts – insane or sane, with all their political views – conservative or liberal. My father wanted us to find out the truths on our own. This is what the Jewish fathers do with their children by sitting down with their children and expounding the truth in them.