The CBE Scroll

Comment by Pcrucifer

November 29, 2007 @ 8:02 pm

I had a unique experience reading the Bible. I was brought up in a loving, supportive, more or less functional agnostic home. I had no exposure to the Bible, aside from thumpers, until I read it myself. What I found delighted and confused me. The Bible was full of justice, deliverance for the downtrodden, valued women (like the verse above), and condemned self-righteousness and judgmental hypocrisy. In other words, exactly the opposite of what I expected. As one of the few people to have read the Bible without first being taught what it was supposed to say, I can say that the text is full of verses similar to the above that set out specific protections for women in a patriarchal society.

Comment by Liz

November 29, 2007 @ 8:40 pm

That is so encouraging to hear because I am concerned that people sometimes read the ‘debatable’ texts and get put off the Christian message. We have had experience of people who have said things like ‘If that’s what God is like…forget it!’ Just goes to show that God is bigger than translations.

Comment by Reverend Ref

November 29, 2007 @ 11:12 pm

I think that this is another verse in a long line of verses that shows us God is concerned with those whom we think are ‘less than.’ As Pcruficer pointed out, the Bible is full of concern for the weak, downtrodden, and others who are prone to abuse. As well as it’s general tendency to promote a reversal of what we consider normal - choosing the second son for the blessing (Jacob), or the youngest son to be king (David), or the Magnificat, to name just a few.

If you really pay attention, the Bible is incredibly subversive to human society.

Comment by jlp

November 30, 2007 @ 12:22 am

Here’s another few verses that get overlooked:

‘God also said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”‘ (Genesis 17:15-16)

Comment by Mary Ann

November 30, 2007 @ 1:33 pm

It would be neat if each of us could post one of these many verses that demonstrate God’s counter-cultural valuing of women.

Comment by Jason Oliver

November 30, 2007 @ 4:22 pm

Here’s another passage of Scripture concerning powerful women:

‘A wise woman called from the city, “Listen! Listen! Tell Joab to come here so I can speak to him.” He went toward her, and she asked, “Are you Joab?” “I am,” he answered. She said, “Listen to what your servant has to say.” “I’m listening,” he said. She continued, “Long ago they used to say, ‘Get your answer at Abel,’ and that settled it. We are the peaceful and faithful in Israel. You are trying to destroy a city that is a mother in Israel. Why do you want to swallow up the Lord’s inheritance?” “Far be it from me!” Joab replied, “Far be it from me to swallow up or destroy! That is not the case. A man named Sheba son of Bicri, from the hill country of Ephraim, has lifted up his hand against the king, against David. Hand over this one man, and I’ll withdraw from the city.” The woman said to Joab, “His head will be thrown to you from the wall.” Then the woman went to all the people with her wise advice, and they cut off the head of Sheba son of Bicri and threw it to Joab. So he sounded the trumpet, and his men dispersed from the city, each returning to his home. And Joab went back to the king in Jerusalem.’ (2 Samuel 20:16-22, NIV)

Comment by jlp

December 1, 2007 @ 3:43 am

Here’s another verse:

‘And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise.’ (Hebrews 11:11)

Comment by jlp

December 1, 2007 @ 4:42 am

Here’s another:

‘Hilkiah and those the king had sent with him went to speak to the prophet Huldah, who was the wife of Shallum son of Tokhath, the son of Hasrah, keeper of the wardrobe. She lived in Jerusalem, in the New Quarter. She said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: Tell the man who sent you to me, ‘This is what the LORD says: I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people—all the curses written in the book that has been read in the presence of the king of Judah. Because they have forsaken me and burned incense to other gods and aroused my anger by all that their hands have made, my anger will be poured out on this place and will not be quenched.’ Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the Lord, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says concerning the words you heard: Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before God when you heard what he spoke against this place and its people, and because you humbled yourself before me and tore your robes and wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the Lord. Now I will gather you to your ancestors, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place and on those who live here.’”

So they took her answer back to the king. Then the king called together all the elders of Judah and Jerusalem. He went up to the temple of the Lord with the people of Judah, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the priests and the Levites - all the people from the least to the greatest. He read in their hearing all the words of the Book of the Covenant, which had been found in the temple of the Lord. The king stood by his pillar and renewed the covenant in the presence of the Lord - to follow the Lord and keep his commands, statutes, and decrees with all his heart and all his soul, and to obey the words of the covenant written in this book.

Then he had everyone in Jerusalem and Benjamin pledge themselves to it; the people of Jerusalem did this in accordance with the covenant of God, the God of their ancestors. Josiah removed all the detestable idols from all the territory belonging to the Israelites, and he had all who were present in Israel serve the Lord their God. As long as he lived, they did not fail to follow the Lord, the God of their ancestors.’ (2 Chronicles 34:22-33)

Comment by jlp

December 1, 2007 @ 4:51 am

‘Now Deborah, a prophet, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading Israel at that time. She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites went up to her to have their disputes decided. She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, “The Lord, the God of Israel, commands you: ‘Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead them up to Mount Tabor. I will lead Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.’” Barak said to her, “If you go with me, I will go; but if you don’t go with me, I won’t go.” “Certainly I will go with you,” said Deborah.’ (Judges 4:4-9)

Between this post and my previous one, two women prophets are mentioned in the Old Testament.

Comment by Francine

December 2, 2007 @ 10:48 am

This really doesn’t have to so with marriage, but women in leadership. Many of the passages on women that has been used shows that in the Bible women did have leadership. In my journey studying the women in the Bible there were things I about them I was really never taught. I loved that Jason Evans brought up the woman at the wall in 2 Samuel 20. That passage is proof of a woman in leadership. Why would a woman be the one to talk to the general? With the army preparing to attack the city, wouldn’t they send a man that was an elder of the city? Unless, of course, the woman was an elder and leader of the city. Notice when she summons for the general to talk to her, he came? He (who was not know for his gentleness) talked to her as if she had the authority to do something. Notice the people of the city listened to her and did as she asked. She was a leader. There are so much more in the Bible about women in marriage and leadership that is not taught and it is time we teach more correctly about them.

Comment by Liz

December 2, 2007 @ 7:17 pm

Well said, Francine. Maybe God will use you to help in that process. It is not easy but for those who have ears to hear, it is such wonderful news.

Comment by Christy

December 3, 2007 @ 7:46 am

If one looks more closely at the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4), it is amazing to see how much Jesus revealed to her and then how immediately fruitful she became after her conversion. Jesus spoke first to her - despite knowing that she was one of the lowest of the lows socially (being a woman, a Samaritan, and an adulteress.) Yet to her Jesus chose to reveal himself as the Messiah. Then He went on to explain the great doctrine of worship to her, that true believers worship in spirit and truth. Notice that Jesus was not talking to Peter or Nicodemus but to the Samaritan woman.

Then, upon her conversion, the Samaritan woman went off to tell the people in her village about Jesus. Meanwhile, Jesus used her obvious example to illustrate a lesson on evangelism to His diciples. The Samaritan woman’s testimony was so fruitful that her village was converted and asked Jesus to stay with them longer (unlike most of the Jewish towns that wanted Jesus to go away.) The Samaritan woman was one of Jesus’ first great evangelists.

Comment by Debbie

December 7, 2007 @ 4:16 pm

A Jewish friend of mine says that in marriage the Jewish man promises several things to his wife; among them is sexual satisfaction. She does not make the same promise to him.

Comment by LBM

December 8, 2007 @ 11:26 am

Actually, there is no evidence that the Samaritan woman was an adulteress (see comment 75087). This is just another piece of mis-information. In fact, we know that she had five husbands. The only way for her to marry so many times was for each of those men to have died or divorced her. She did not have the ability to divorce anyone - that was a privilege reserved for males. As for ‘the man you are now living with is not your husband,’ what this means is that husband number five neither died nor gave her a certificate of divorce. (If he had died or given her the certificate she could have married again.) He simply threw her out with no means of supporting herself. What options did she have? Normally a woman in those circumstances would return to her family. We can conclude that she had no one to take her in, so was left with the options of prostitution or living with someone who would give her a roof and food in exchange for the use of her body (labor and sexual favors).

As to why she had that succession of husbands in the first place, if we examine the teachings of the different schools of rabbis of the time, who were divided on the acceptable causes for a man to divorce his wife (see Matthew 19:3) we find that the one thing they all had in common was that a man must divorce his wife if she were childless, in order to get a son for himself. So the likely scenario is this: she is a woman and a Samaritan, has been divorced four times for her childlessness, and thrown out by husband number five without even a divorce certificate. Her experience with men has been pretty shoddy, yet somewhere along the line she has also learned quite a lot about her own religion and the Jewish religion, so much so that when Jesus appears, treats her with respect, and reveals himself to her step by step as God, she is able to listen, understand, ask intelligent questions, and finally believe in him as her Messiah. She turns into the first great evangelist of the gospel of John.

Yet how do we remember her and hear her presented over and over? As a sinful, immoral, adulterous woman. Yet this is nowhere in the text. Jesus never reproves her for her supposed sinfulness - the word ’sin’ isn’t in the text. We’ve been taught to read it into his attitude and expressions, but it just isn’t there.

Christy, you are exactly correct in your statements about how she believed and how Jesus treated her and in the results of her testimony. It is for this that we should remember and talk about her, not for invented stories of her supposed sinfulness.

Comment by Christy

December 8, 2007 @ 6:00 pm

LBM (see comment 75677) wrote:

As for ‘the man you are now living with is not your husband,’ what this means is that husband number five neither died nor gave her a certificate of divorce. (If he had died or given her the certificate she could have married again.) He simply threw her out with no means of supporting herself. What options did she have? Normally a woman in those circumstances would return to her family. We can conclude that she had no one to take her in, so was left with the options of prostitution or living with someone who would give her a roof and food in exchange for the use of her body (labor and sexual favors).

The fact that she is living with a man who isn’t her husband makes her technically an adulteress. In Matthew 5:32 it says that if a man divorces his wife and she remarries, it makes her an adulteress. (And if he does not divorce her and she is living with another man, it still makes her an adulteress.)

Many of your other points are purely conjecture. The Scriptures simply do not give us further details concerning this woman’s life. What we do know by the Scriptures is that Samaritans were despised by the Jews, that the disciples were appalled that Jesus was talking to this woman, and that adulteresses were despised by society. Why did Jesus even ask the woman about her ‘husband’ if not to give her the opportunity to be honest with him? It seems to have pleased Jesus that she did not conceal her situation.

Comment by Watcher

December 8, 2007 @ 7:31 pm

Christy (see comment 75709), I understand what you are saying about the Samaritan woman still being an adultress.

But, I really appreciate what LBM said (comment 75677) about the social structure set in place that may have forced her into this position of adultery for the sake of her own survival in the first place. It really does make one rethink things. Unlike the woman who was caught in the act of adultery, Jesus did not say ‘go and sin no more.’ Perhaps it was not within her power to escape a life of adultery at this point.

And, perhaps we can look upon this as another huge thing Jesus came to change, you know, that ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you’ thing. That really is a profound concept, almost too deep for some, especially when it comes to the way some men (or entire societies) think that it is okay to treat certain kinds of women. It also makes me understand better this term ‘friend of prostitutes and tax collectors’ that he was given.

Jesus was an incredible revolutionary in more ways than we can grasp. I get astonished by it all the time when these things are opened up to me.

Comment by Donna

December 16, 2007 @ 6:30 am

‘Jesus said to her “You are right when you say you have no husband. The fact is, you have had five husbands and the man you now have is not your husband.”‘

It sounds to me as if she is no longer married to husband five, and she is living out of wedlock with another man, probably just to survive. That’s not the same as adultery. She is not an adulteress. I’ve read this passage many times and I have never heard anyone describe her as an adulteress before.

Comment by Will

December 17, 2007 @ 12:38 pm

Another thing about this encounter in John 4 is the reaction of the disciples in verse 27. Not only is Jesus speaking to a woman and a Samaritan, but he is doing so in a deeply symbolic and intimate manner. Take a quick look at Genesis 24, and the similarity of the account given there to John 4. Something tells me the disciples caught on, if only in part.

Comment by fjs

December 18, 2007 @ 8:12 am

In seminary, we read a book on narrative by Robert Alter, he spoke of well scenes as betrothal scenes. It is the place of Rebecca’s being chosen for Isaac, Rachel and Jacob’s meeting.

The well scene symbolizes something in Hebrew thought that has to do with being chosen, welcome, and accepted into the family.

Comment by Francine

December 22, 2007 @ 6:44 am

With all the debate on whether or not the Samaritan woman was an adultress is taking away from many of the other good points in the passage. The main point is how to be an evangelist.

Christ had to go through Samaria. Although the Bible does say why he goes through rather around, it seems he had an appointment. At the well he talks to her first. His asking for water was mainly to get her attention, since she would not have talked to him because of the hatred between the Jews and Samaritans. He gets her attention, then he says something on the side of theology to draw her into the conversion. When he tells her he knows about her husbands and present living conditions he is not condemning her, but telling her that he knows her. This gives her an idea of who he is. She gets the idea that he is more than a Jewish rabbi. To her, he had to be a prophet. He is discussing theology to a woman, a hated and unclean (to the Jews) Samaritan woman - something that just wasn’t done in those days. Since she is having a hard time understanding about the living water he is patient with her, but he does need to make her understand who he is. She does know that the Messiah is coming, but the Samaritans thought it would be from the line of Moses, not David.

Do you realize that she is one of the first that he actually tells he the Messiah? He doesn’t tell her to be quiet about it as he did with his disciples. She ran back into town and told everyone that she has met the Messiah and they listened. She didn’t preach to them but told them to go met him for themselves. They did. He preached to them; they listen and believed.

One of the parts of the passage we often miss is verse 35-38. ‘Do you not say, “Four months more and then the harvest?” I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. Thus the saying “One sows and another reaps” is true. I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.’ Who did the hard work? The Samartian woman. Men and women are to work together for the harvest of souls in the church.