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	<title>Comments on: &#8216;&#8230;all that God dreamed up&#8217;</title>
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	<description>Blog voices from Christians for Biblical Equality</description>
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		<title>By: fjs</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2007/12/all-that-god-dreamed-up/comment-page-2/#comment-78939</link>
		<dc:creator>fjs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2008 04:11:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=175#comment-78939</guid>
		<description>The name of the five-fold ministry movement is this: The New Apostolic Reformation... Sounds very authoritarian, for your information.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The name of the five-fold ministry movement is this: The New Apostolic Reformation&#8230; Sounds very authoritarian, for your information.</p>
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		<title>By: fjs</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2007/12/all-that-god-dreamed-up/comment-page-2/#comment-77836</link>
		<dc:creator>fjs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2008 03:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=175#comment-77836</guid>
		<description>One more thing. Sometimes these systems are healthy. It depends on the accountability system that is in place. While a different expression of faith practice, it is not entirely outside of orthodoxy.

The health of the system depends on the health of the leaders and the health of the entire network of church within apostolic authority. Churches join by choice and choose to submit to the authority of such leadership networks.

Some systems also embrace women more fully than others. Some even place women in the the ranks of apostle. I think each system should be evaluated on its overall health.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more thing. Sometimes these systems are healthy. It depends on the accountability system that is in place. While a different expression of faith practice, it is not entirely outside of orthodoxy.</p>
<p>The health of the system depends on the health of the leaders and the health of the entire network of church within apostolic authority. Churches join by choice and choose to submit to the authority of such leadership networks.</p>
<p>Some systems also embrace women more fully than others. Some even place women in the the ranks of apostle. I think each system should be evaluated on its overall health.</p>
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		<title>By: fjs</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2007/12/all-that-god-dreamed-up/comment-page-2/#comment-77834</link>
		<dc:creator>fjs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:53:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=175#comment-77834</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know if the movement you speak of is the same. I only know that there is thinking within some church groups that consider the Ephesians 4:11 text to be offices of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher. In this interpretation the five offices are ranked in order of authority (above) beginning first with the apostle, who is in authority over the others.

They form networks of churches covered by the apostle and prophets. As I understand it, there can be some overlap... such as one being an apostle and pastor.

Women fit in and are able to use their giftedness under the authority of their husbands. Single women are less comfortable in this system.

While it may seem biblical, it depends on ones interpretation... I think that the ranking and the offices is imposed on the text that does not necessarily mean a rank of officials with governing authority because the text is in the context of growth, equipping, and maturity. People with such gifts are to equip and help the church grow to maturity. And while they would say that this is the task of the five-fold ministry, the text does not necessiarily say that such ministries are offices of authority. Authority is brought to the text.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know if the movement you speak of is the same. I only know that there is thinking within some church groups that consider the Ephesians 4:11 text to be offices of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher. In this interpretation the five offices are ranked in order of authority (above) beginning first with the apostle, who is in authority over the others.</p>
<p>They form networks of churches covered by the apostle and prophets. As I understand it, there can be some overlap&#8230; such as one being an apostle and pastor.</p>
<p>Women fit in and are able to use their giftedness under the authority of their husbands. Single women are less comfortable in this system.</p>
<p>While it may seem biblical, it depends on ones interpretation&#8230; I think that the ranking and the offices is imposed on the text that does not necessarily mean a rank of officials with governing authority because the text is in the context of growth, equipping, and maturity. People with such gifts are to equip and help the church grow to maturity. And while they would say that this is the task of the five-fold ministry, the text does not necessiarily say that such ministries are offices of authority. Authority is brought to the text.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2007/12/all-that-god-dreamed-up/comment-page-2/#comment-77454</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 17:17:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=175#comment-77454</guid>
		<description>Regarding comment 77439, it sounds a little like my group. Our leadership is very much into doing things in a &#039;first century&#039; pattern. By the way, one of the men leading us recently got married in a first century type of ceremony (complete with a symbolic bride price paid to his fiance&#039;s father) Tell me more about this movement... does it have a name?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding comment 77439, it sounds a little like my group. Our leadership is very much into doing things in a &#8216;first century&#8217; pattern. By the way, one of the men leading us recently got married in a first century type of ceremony (complete with a symbolic bride price paid to his fiance&#8217;s father) Tell me more about this movement&#8230; does it have a name?</p>
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		<title>By: fjs</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2007/12/all-that-god-dreamed-up/comment-page-2/#comment-77439</link>
		<dc:creator>fjs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 06:13:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=175#comment-77439</guid>
		<description>Has anyone heard of a new church leadership movement that is heavily top-down in authority? I think it is billed as a return to the apostolic leadership of the New Testament. It&#039;s pretty authority based and heirarchically structured. The governing form is not congregational. Leaders and elders set all of he vision and make all of the decisions. There is no membership. The only voice a congregation has is to vote with their feet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has anyone heard of a new church leadership movement that is heavily top-down in authority? I think it is billed as a return to the apostolic leadership of the New Testament. It&#8217;s pretty authority based and heirarchically structured. The governing form is not congregational. Leaders and elders set all of he vision and make all of the decisions. There is no membership. The only voice a congregation has is to vote with their feet.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary Ann</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2007/12/all-that-god-dreamed-up/comment-page-2/#comment-77422</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=175#comment-77422</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the insight, Watcher. That brings us back to the couple that Trevor mentioned in an earlier comment - Richard and Sabina Wurmbrand, of the Voice of the Martyrs. One thing I learned from them a few years back is the need to pray for the oppressors and the persecutors. It&#039;s not something natural for us - but it is exactly what Jesus called us to - &#039;Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.&#039; When I pray to ask God to help me forgive those (hierarchicalists) who have wounded me, I need also to pray that God will forgive them and help them move closer to the truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the insight, Watcher. That brings us back to the couple that Trevor mentioned in an earlier comment &#8211; Richard and Sabina Wurmbrand, of the Voice of the Martyrs. One thing I learned from them a few years back is the need to pray for the oppressors and the persecutors. It&#8217;s not something natural for us &#8211; but it is exactly what Jesus called us to &#8211; &#8216;Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.&#8217; When I pray to ask God to help me forgive those (hierarchicalists) who have wounded me, I need also to pray that God will forgive them and help them move closer to the truth.</p>
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		<title>By: Watcher</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2007/12/all-that-god-dreamed-up/comment-page-2/#comment-77413</link>
		<dc:creator>Watcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 16:18:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=175#comment-77413</guid>
		<description>Thanks Liz. And thanks, Mary Ann, for bringing up that verse. I so agree with you on this about these poor, surprised men who will find themselves in heaven having to learn how to serve and submit because they refused to learn it down here. And I&#039;d also like to take it a step further because of some things I had seen and experienced.

Years ago, when my husband still pastored a friend of mine who went to our church came to me upset, asking for prayer. It wasn&#039;t for her but for her cousin, a woman I knew who lived one town over from us. This woman and her husband used to go to another church, but after dealing with poor leadership issues they quit going.

Now this gets gross and is something that polite people don&#039;t want to talk about and keep hush-hush. But by not talking about it, things like this can continue in the dark. If you are one of those polite people who doesn&#039;t want to be exposed to this sort of thing, please stop reading now. This is your only warning.

My friend&#039;s cousin had to go to the doctor because of a tear in her rectum because her husband demanded anal sex. My heart broke, and I immediately went to my knees with this attitude toward the husband - What a selfish self-centered man... Dear God please make him see the damage he&#039;s doing.

But something happened while we were on our knees. And understanding came upon me about the judgement of God and along with that a realization that this husband did not fear God. I started praying that he would gain that fear and escape the judgement he was heaping upon himself.

And when I stood, I told my friend that her cousin&#039;s husband did not fear God. She said that was true that she actually heard him say so himself.

Now the Bible says that in court, a matter is established by two or three witnesses. And I hid this experience in my heart, not relating it because the thought was so new. But while reading Corrie Ten Boom&#039;s &lt;em&gt;Hiding Place&lt;/em&gt; through again I came across the scene where Corrie and Betsy were watching a prison guard beating a prisoner. Corrie said, &#039;Oh, that poor woman,&#039; to which Betsy responded, &#039;Oh, yes, may God forgive her.&#039; Betsy, who would die in the prison camp, had an understanding of the judgement of God. She recognized the one to pity was the one under God&#039;s judgement. 

It&#039;s kind of like the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man had everything in this life. Lazarus had nothing. The rich man, in his position of luxury, showed no pity on the less fortunate and therefore placed himself under judgement. If it is so for a man who simply didn&#039;t help his fellow man, how much more is it for one who actually abuses and oppresses his fellow man?

I know this site is for the sake of justice for all and to help women come into the place God has for them. But the truth is, I really fear for the oppressors and the judgements they place themselves under - whether it is an oppressive religous system, government, or home. The oppressor has only one way of escape -repentence. But so many feel that their position of elevation entitles them. They think that God thinks like they do.

The church has not only done a diservice to women in abusive situations. Because of this sacred cow of the man being the sovereign in his home and other men not wanting to do &lt;em&gt;anything&lt;/em&gt; to undermine their own perceived authority in the home, the church has unwittingly place a whole lot of men under judgement, a judgement I wouldn&#039;t wish on anyone.

You&#039;ve heard the term, &#039;I pity the fool.&#039; It&#039;s used as a joke, but the judgement of God is no joke, And I truly pity the fool who feels entitled to abuse or oppress another, who looks at the Bible as proof-positive that he is superior and acts on it, fearing no judgement.

You see, folks, we need to stand for justice, not just for the sake of the oppressed but also for the sake of the oppressor who does not fear God, who does not comprehend the huge judgement to come.

When you work toward liberating the captive, don&#039;t forget to pray for the oppressor that he can escape being in the position of a sinner &#039;in the hands of an angry God.&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Liz. And thanks, Mary Ann, for bringing up that verse. I so agree with you on this about these poor, surprised men who will find themselves in heaven having to learn how to serve and submit because they refused to learn it down here. And I&#8217;d also like to take it a step further because of some things I had seen and experienced.</p>
<p>Years ago, when my husband still pastored a friend of mine who went to our church came to me upset, asking for prayer. It wasn&#8217;t for her but for her cousin, a woman I knew who lived one town over from us. This woman and her husband used to go to another church, but after dealing with poor leadership issues they quit going.</p>
<p>Now this gets gross and is something that polite people don&#8217;t want to talk about and keep hush-hush. But by not talking about it, things like this can continue in the dark. If you are one of those polite people who doesn&#8217;t want to be exposed to this sort of thing, please stop reading now. This is your only warning.</p>
<p>My friend&#8217;s cousin had to go to the doctor because of a tear in her rectum because her husband demanded anal sex. My heart broke, and I immediately went to my knees with this attitude toward the husband &#8211; What a selfish self-centered man&#8230; Dear God please make him see the damage he&#8217;s doing.</p>
<p>But something happened while we were on our knees. And understanding came upon me about the judgement of God and along with that a realization that this husband did not fear God. I started praying that he would gain that fear and escape the judgement he was heaping upon himself.</p>
<p>And when I stood, I told my friend that her cousin&#8217;s husband did not fear God. She said that was true that she actually heard him say so himself.</p>
<p>Now the Bible says that in court, a matter is established by two or three witnesses. And I hid this experience in my heart, not relating it because the thought was so new. But while reading Corrie Ten Boom&#8217;s <em>Hiding Place</em> through again I came across the scene where Corrie and Betsy were watching a prison guard beating a prisoner. Corrie said, &#8216;Oh, that poor woman,&#8217; to which Betsy responded, &#8216;Oh, yes, may God forgive her.&#8217; Betsy, who would die in the prison camp, had an understanding of the judgement of God. She recognized the one to pity was the one under God&#8217;s judgement. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s kind of like the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man had everything in this life. Lazarus had nothing. The rich man, in his position of luxury, showed no pity on the less fortunate and therefore placed himself under judgement. If it is so for a man who simply didn&#8217;t help his fellow man, how much more is it for one who actually abuses and oppresses his fellow man?</p>
<p>I know this site is for the sake of justice for all and to help women come into the place God has for them. But the truth is, I really fear for the oppressors and the judgements they place themselves under &#8211; whether it is an oppressive religous system, government, or home. The oppressor has only one way of escape -repentence. But so many feel that their position of elevation entitles them. They think that God thinks like they do.</p>
<p>The church has not only done a diservice to women in abusive situations. Because of this sacred cow of the man being the sovereign in his home and other men not wanting to do <em>anything</em> to undermine their own perceived authority in the home, the church has unwittingly place a whole lot of men under judgement, a judgement I wouldn&#8217;t wish on anyone.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve heard the term, &#8216;I pity the fool.&#8217; It&#8217;s used as a joke, but the judgement of God is no joke, And I truly pity the fool who feels entitled to abuse or oppress another, who looks at the Bible as proof-positive that he is superior and acts on it, fearing no judgement.</p>
<p>You see, folks, we need to stand for justice, not just for the sake of the oppressed but also for the sake of the oppressor who does not fear God, who does not comprehend the huge judgement to come.</p>
<p>When you work toward liberating the captive, don&#8217;t forget to pray for the oppressor that he can escape being in the position of a sinner &#8216;in the hands of an angry God.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Liz</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2007/12/all-that-god-dreamed-up/comment-page-2/#comment-77398</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 01:12:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=175#comment-77398</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the reference to those who smuggle literature into oppressed countries. This has been going on for decades with great blessing and success as God protects and honors his servants both within and without these countries.

In these situations there is always a &#039;greater law&#039; which needs to be obeyed and we must not let worldly (or church) authorities cause us to disobey God or limit the spread of the gospel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the reference to those who smuggle literature into oppressed countries. This has been going on for decades with great blessing and success as God protects and honors his servants both within and without these countries.</p>
<p>In these situations there is always a &#8216;greater law&#8217; which needs to be obeyed and we must not let worldly (or church) authorities cause us to disobey God or limit the spread of the gospel.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary Ann</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2007/12/all-that-god-dreamed-up/comment-page-2/#comment-77393</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2008 22:44:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=175#comment-77393</guid>
		<description>Great insight, Watcher. I do believe you answered my question - in the way that needed to be answered.

Funny, on the eve of the New Year, I was meditating on some Scripture, and God brought me to a similar realization - that those who exercise (abuse) &#039;authority&#039; and lord it over others in a way that Jesus put down (Mark 10:41-44) will be held accountable to him. In the last day, they will have to give account as to why they have misinterpreted and misapplied Scripture - and abused any &#039;authority&#039; that he may (or may not) have given them. In reading the verse, &#039;whoever wants to be first must be slave of all,&#039; I realized that those husbands who treat their wives like their servants will be last in the kingdom of God, and their wives will be first before them - because it is those wives who have truly been the &#039;slaves of all.&#039;

Yes, God owns the house and all the apples and all the people passing by..! What an encouraging truth to remember! In the midst of that truth, though, I do believe that I need to sneak some apples and knock on that door... However, the deep conviction to do so and imagining the reality of coming face to face with the &#039;grump&#039; at the door leaves me weak-kneed and hesitant more often than not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great insight, Watcher. I do believe you answered my question &#8211; in the way that needed to be answered.</p>
<p>Funny, on the eve of the New Year, I was meditating on some Scripture, and God brought me to a similar realization &#8211; that those who exercise (abuse) &#8216;authority&#8217; and lord it over others in a way that Jesus put down (Mark 10:41-44) will be held accountable to him. In the last day, they will have to give account as to why they have misinterpreted and misapplied Scripture &#8211; and abused any &#8216;authority&#8217; that he may (or may not) have given them. In reading the verse, &#8216;whoever wants to be first must be slave of all,&#8217; I realized that those husbands who treat their wives like their servants will be last in the kingdom of God, and their wives will be first before them &#8211; because it is those wives who have truly been the &#8216;slaves of all.&#8217;</p>
<p>Yes, God owns the house and all the apples and all the people passing by..! What an encouraging truth to remember! In the midst of that truth, though, I do believe that I need to sneak some apples and knock on that door&#8230; However, the deep conviction to do so and imagining the reality of coming face to face with the &#8216;grump&#8217; at the door leaves me weak-kneed and hesitant more often than not.</p>
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