The CBE Scroll

Comment by PS

April 4, 2008 @ 12:24 pm

This is like Show Them, don’t just tell them.

Or like the place in the Epistles where the wife isn’t suppose to tell her husband about the Lord, but live a Godly life in the home.

I read about a college which is now deliberately recruiting a woman pastor. Well, fine, maybe overdue, but a “quota” turns off a lot of people, including me.

Comment by Lolly

April 10, 2008 @ 8:34 pm

Ashleigh, you forgot about that other wonderful parachurch organization, YWAM! The founder, Loren Cunningham, wrote one of the seminal texts of the egalitarian movement, [em]Why Not Women?[/em].

I had the honor of attending two schools at YWAM Denver, and it was that experience that began to wean me away from my patriarchal upbringing. I was already wrestling with doubts about the way I was raised, and what I saw in those schools was a revelation: men and women learning about God together, and women serving everywhere, from the worship team to leading outreaches. Seeing all these godly women serving in freedom undercut what I’d been taught about women neding to be restricted, and reading Cunningham’s book put the nail in the coffin of my old beliefs.

I also feel, like you, that it’s not the place for these organizations to engage in gender wars. First of all, it would attract too much negative publicity, which would hinder their work. Second, they are far more effective because they are quietly attracting the next generation of Christians. Today’s young people are being raised in a society where women are treated equal, and they will carry this attitude into the church.

Comment by Liz

April 11, 2008 @ 5:43 pm

Why is it that parachurch groups are so different from church groups?

Many times they seem to model what real community and fellowship is about more than established local churches.

Maybe it has something to do with the concept of ‘church’. It can be seen as the meeting together and how things are done. Even when it comes to verses which pertain to a woman teaching a man, it is visualised mostly as from a pulpit on a platform on a Sunday morning.

There’s always stories about returning missionaries being able to ’share’ but not teach and often from the lower platform but not the main pulpit. There are all sorts of invisible lines drawn on these occasions - none of them biblical.

Comment by Ashleigh

April 11, 2008 @ 8:01 pm

Lolly,

Thanks for your comment!

I’m familiar with YWAM, as well– I got to spend a little over a week hanging out with a YWAM evangelistic hip-hop dance camp for kids in the Dominican Republic last summer. I had a great time with them!

I’m not sure what YWAM’s policies are throughout their organization, how effective they are at partnering with local churches and other evangelical organizations, or with what success they recruit women into all levels of leadership… BUT, I loved the staff I met and definitely saw both women and men serving as teachers and role models for our kids. Many of the kids they worked with during the summer were ones they disciple and train throughout the year, as well, and I was really impressed by the kids’ maturity and excitement about sharing Jesus with others.

There are probably countless other organizations that are making a positive difference in gender relations, though some of them may not even know it–I, thankfully, couldn’t make a comprehensive list if I tried!

I certainly hope that you are correct about the near future. I would love for my children to grow up with an understanding of history but a very different present-day experience.

Comment by Ashleigh

April 11, 2008 @ 8:16 pm

Liz,

I have long wondered about the church/parachurch distinction myself, and I think you make a good point about how real community often develops in certain parachurch groups more easily than some local churches.

I’m not sure I’m going to understand it all until I take “Systematic Theology 3: Ecclesiology & Eschatology” (this is assuming I’m accepted into seminary!), but I think InterVarsity greatly thinks of the difference between a church and parachurch as being a broader vs. more targeted ministry. For InterVarsity, one of the biggest reasons for encouraging students to attend a local church is simply the issue of age diversity– it’s important to be around believers that are older and younger than you, not just in a narrow 17-23 range.

It’s true that many local churches don’t live up to the definition of an “ideal” church, and in fact some parachurch orgs do that better. I tend to think we put a little too much emphasis on organizations vs. people when we act like the church and parachurch are entirely different animals, but at the same time, I appreciate ideas like apostolic succession (as practiced by some, though certainly not all, denominations) and other opportunities for tradition and accountability in the local church. I also, of course, will always appreciate the flexible, innovative character of many parachurch organizations.

Overall it’s difficult for me to say what is truly “the role” of either structure, but I think that both do important work in building the kingdom.

What do you/others think?

Comment by Diane

April 12, 2008 @ 11:40 pm

Hi Ashleigh! I wish I could send you a personal message, but I guess everyone on here will get to read this :-)

I am also in InterVarsity and have struggled quite a bit with feeling unaffirmed by some (many?) people in my chapter for pursuing a call to ordination. After much complaining (and praying!) on my part, we are now inviting more than one female speaker per semester, but it’s an uphill battle and I’ve felt really alone in a lot of it. I never knew how many people in our generation were so against the principle of equality!

It really cheered me to read your encouragement to stay invested in parachurch organizations like IV because so many times it seems easier just to walk away and go back to only worshipping within my life-affirming home denomination. It frustrates me and wears me down to feel like the lone voice for women’s equality within my chapter — and how can one person make a difference? I’ve been told (by C-team IVers), “You’re the only one at our school who has ever noticed or cared about this” (not true - I’m the only one who has spoken up), and “We can’t concentrate both on racial equality and gender equality — we have to choose and race is more important.” I don’t see why the two (race & gender) are mutually exclusive!

But enough for my rant… I really just wanted to say, “Thank you!” for these two beautiful pieces, and that I’m with you all the way!

Diane

PS. One of my good friends is the ‘07-08 IV intern at UNC-CH… would you happen to know her?

Comment by jlp

April 13, 2008 @ 3:17 am

Diane,

I agree with that gender equality is just as important as racial equality. I think there has been so much hierarchal teachings in the Christian community that women’s needs and aspirations and abilities are not considered as important as men’s, and that is why some downplay the value of gender equality.

Comment by Ashleigh

April 13, 2008 @ 11:33 am

Diane,

Aww! This comment definitely just made my day!

I am so happy to hear that others from IV are reading this/are connected to CBE in some way. (Are you a regular reader or did you just happen upon this post?)

I was just a mega-stalker and tried to look you up in Kristen’s Facebook (–> yes, I definitely know her, have been to her apt for dessert/meetings, etc.)– are you graduating this yr, as well, or do I have the wrong Diane? Are you going to be at seminary next yr? If so, where? (B/c I am hoping to be at one myself– I’m not in yet, but I’ve applied to Fuller! It’d be cool to know someone when I get there, and really weird to have met them on a blog…)

When I first came into our chapter at the end of my first year of college (early April, I think), I believe one of the first couple Large Group speakers I heard was a woman, which really impressed me. Unfortunately, I quickly found out she’d been the only female speaker all semester!

As someone who’s been on C-Team, I’ve discovered two dynamics at work. Actually, probably three:
(1) Opposition- it’s true that some people don’t want to see more female speakers
(2) Apathy- I think it’s even more often true that people aren’t aware or don’t care about the issue– and sometimes this isn’t because they’re mean but simply because they’re working so hard at other aspects of our ministry!
(3) Barriers that are nobody’s fault.

In my time I’ve seen most opposition melt, and I’ve seen a lot of apathy change. But we still have only a couple female speakers each semester (two or three is great for us!) due to circumstances beyond our control, things that just make it hard. Most churches that ordain women aren’t evangelical, so finding female pastors/other leaders that can speak that also agree with our statement of faith can be tricky. (Though it’s certainly not impossible!) Furthermore, even in denominations that ordain women, women are the minority of ministers– which means, again, it’s just dang hard to find them. Also, several times for us, we’ve been interested in bringing in a female speaker only to have the date not work out or them not really get back with us. This means that it takes a heck of a lot of effort to push for change!

In this way, I think it’s clear that the biggest battle we face is not with individuals that oppose us but with “principalities and powers”! It’s an uphill battle even when everyone agrees that this is a good and right thing to do!

That said, I’m really truly sorry about this aspect of your experience in your chapter. I know what it feels like to be the “lone voice,” and it’s not fun at all. I think you bring up an interesting point about the way in which gender and ethnic issues sometimes seem to clash. On my journey, I first found Christian feminism, then ethnic and other social justice issues, and then I felt God used my growth there to bring me back to thinking about gender some more. At this point, everything is quite connected for me, as it seems to be for you. I’m so exciting that your chapter is committed enough to ethnic issues that they want to stand against anything that might get in the way of pursuing reconciliation and justice! But it’s so unfortunate that another very good and important thing happens to be the expense. That’s obviously not what God intends, and I sincerely hope that when you visit your chapter five years from now, you would be amazed by the work the Lord has done.

Feel free to find me through Kristen’s Facebook if you would like to chat further! It’s great to meet another student passionate about these things. (And just another woman interested in ministry!)

Ashleigh

P.S. Sorry this is SO LONG.

Comment by Michael Bell

April 15, 2008 @ 10:01 am

Hi Ashleigh,

I cam across your post this morning and really wanted to encourage you. I was involved in IVCF from 1981-1985 and as an Intern staff person in 1994.

It was IVCF that opened my eyes to the fact that their was serious commited spiritual christians outside my conservative denomination.

It was IVCF that showed me that a black christian could become my spiritual mentor and closest friend.

If was IVCF that God had gifted women with leadership abilities and was using them in that capacity.

In the types of churches I now associate with, women have significant leadership roles. For one of the denominations it was a twenty year battle to see this happen, but it finally occured a few years ago.

I really want to thank God for IVCF and for the role it had in opening up the little box that I was trying to put God in.

Mike.

Comment by Diane

April 15, 2008 @ 5:22 pm

Ashleigh and I are now totally stalking each other on facebook, but I thought I would share this with everyone else on here:

Last semester my IV staffworker (campus minister) asked me if I had any recommendations of women who could speak at IV’s main meeting. I only knew of 2-3 women personally, but I e-mailed a request for recommendations to all of the Christian campus ministers at my university, as well as to a couple of professors and the university Chaplaincy. Within a week, I had the names of over 50 women who could speak in a large group setting. Some of them I knew and just hadn’t thought of in that capacity before!

Not all of them were ordained but then again, many of the male speakers we invite are not ordained. A handful of them were also women of color (one of the other reasons given as to why we couldn’t invite more women was that we needed to invite people of color! Where are Black women left in this??).

So my point is that women speakers ARE available, and sometimes it just takes a little bit of asking around to find them.

[And I loved pointing out that with 50 women as recommended speakers that my chapter could invite each of them and have ONLY women speakers for over *two* years! And if they really wanted gender equality, then they could split male/female 50/50 for four years!)

Comment by Ashleigh

April 15, 2008 @ 9:16 pm

Mike, that is really encouraging– thanks so much for sharing! In which region were you an intern? And if you don’t mind my asking, which denom so recently changed their views on women??

Diane, I have long intended to help our chapter create a speaker database, but it’s a lot of work. Your story was pretty inspirational, though, so I think I’m going to talk with the incoming LG Coordinators and see if they’d like any help over the summer. ;o) It’s amazing what a little networking can do, huh?

Comment by Michael Bell

April 16, 2008 @ 1:50 pm

Hi Ashley, I was involved with IV in Ontario, Canada. As a student I was at the University of Western Ontario, in London, Ontario, and for a short time in Ottawa at Carelton University. As an intern I was at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario where I now live.

The denomination that became more open was the Christian and Missionary Alliance in Canada. The primary issue was that of Elders in the Church. After getting nowhere with the issue for twenty years they finally decided to let individual congregations decide the issue when 2/3rds of the congregation was in favour of it. What this has meant is that in Eastern Canada, many churches have women elders and in Western Canada, which tends to be more conservative, only a few have women elders. I am not sure of the current situation of the U.S. version of the denomination.

My current church is a North American Baptist (churches in both USA and Canada), each church is somewhat independent, so there is a variety of flavours around the continent. Here in Hamilton, two of our 7 elders are women, and both have significant leadership roles within the church.

Previously I was also involved with the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada. The P.A.O.C. has no restrictions at all as to what roles women can have in the church. There are a number of women who are senior pastors within this denomination. Most Pentecostal groups have similar views, largely because of the women involved in their historical background, as well as their emphasis on the importance of spiritual gifts. Also on the Charismatic side of things, the Association of Vineyard churches allow its individual congregations to decide.

In Canada there are a number of more “main-line” churches that have no restrictions on roles. Among these is the Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec, the Presbyterian Church of Canada (my Wife’s room-mate from university was the Pastor of two PCOC churches at the same time), as well as the pretty liberal United Church of Canada.

One blogger you might appreciate reading is Singing Owl, at http://revgalblogpals.blogspot.com/ and at http://pastoretteponderings.blogspot.com/

Mike

Comment by Ashleigh

April 20, 2008 @ 11:13 am

Mike,

So did you intern but not end up on staff longer than that? I really seriously considered staff but have opted to go the seminary route instead.

I know so little about Canadian denominations, but it sounds like the spectrum up there is about as broad as it is down here.

I also don’t know much about the differing flavors of Inter-Varsity Canada vs. InterVarsity/USA, but since I’m still considering working of IV in some capactiy down the road, it’s super-cool to hear from a Canadian and have a small window into the IFES org up there. :o)

Thanks again for sharing!