The CBE Scroll

Comment by Richard

April 27, 2008 @ 12:16 pm

You have very little in the way of doctrine listed. I would suggest expository preaching as being a mark of this church. Start with a commitment to scripture and the other priorities will likely fall into place.

Comment by Ashleigh

April 27, 2008 @ 2:01 pm

I think the most important thing to remember in this discussion is that there is no one order of worship, no one way of organizing, no one egalitarian church.

Already, there are many egalitarian churches. Stop by a Cooperative Baptist Fellowship congregation, compare it to an Anglican one, compare that to a charismatic, non-denominational community, and compare that to a PCUSA… Ay! So many different styles of worship! So many different doctrinal emphases! So many different kinds of people!

I do think there are certain values I’d hope all egalitarian churches would embrace: pursuing justice in other areas, for example. Or building authentic community.

However, I would venture to say that if we make being egalitarian the centerpiece of the church and these other items our additional commitments flowing from that, we have missed the mark. Instead, let us focus on responding to the gospel holistically. Being egalitarian is one of many bullet points under that, hopefully alongside these other values.

Plus, goodness, can we expect churches of different cultures to operate in exactly the same way? Even churches with more hierarchy and liturgy look different in different cultural settings– a white U.S. American and a black U.S. American Catholic church are quite different experiences! Those differences are something to celebrate. That’s only one dimension: should all egalitarian churches be part of the emerging church movement? Should they cling to liturgy and tradition? Should they remain in old denominations or invent new ones? These are questions without one clear answer.

I think that as long as we have so many styles of doing things, we should learn from each other and encourage each other to live out the values of reconciliation and justice within one’s own cultural, denominational, etc. context.

So what is the “ideal” egalitarian church? Depends on how you do church already. Maybe some things need to be changed– we always could improve, right? But I think God wants to redeem our church cultures as they are more often than he wants to completely destroy what we are already doing.

Comment by Trevor

April 28, 2008 @ 12:06 am

As I’m reading the intent of this blog and the couple of comments that have already been made to date, by Richard and Ashleigh, I find myself in agreement with them both. Yes, from my more conservative background I can see the value of expositional preaching from the Scriptures as of paramount importance.

I would add though, in respect to doctrinal content, that so often this emphasis, by itself, can pull us back into a particular denominational outlook or style of worship or leadership. Which I think is what Ashleigh is also expressing concern about. There are already good things that various denominational groups and their ethnic derivatives do. Let’s not lose sight of that either. Let’s learn from the church worldwide, not only from our industrialized Western experience. The suffering church has much to teach us also in this regard as non-essentials are brutally stripped away.

But what jumped out at me was recalling Gilbert Bilezekian’s book titled, ‘Community 101: Reclaiming the Local Church as a Community of Oneness.’ That book was a clarion call back to discovering the local church as essentially ‘community’ and that community expressed in the ‘oneness’ evidenced in the trinity. For whatever we achieve if it does not have at its heart a sense of community, or commonality in Christ that is infectious and contagious we would be missing out on God’s desire for His people.

Other concerns and our actions in respect to those concerns, for example widows/orphans or the otherwise disadvantaged or marginalised people from our various communities, should arise as the need is made evident. The centrality of Christ in our gatherings should create opportunities to serve Him and elicit action that is empowered by the Holy Spirit and funded by the generosity of God’s people. Mission must be an essential element of worship.

The oneness aspect should see gifted believers of either gender freed to serve the church with their various, Spirit endowed gifts. The community of saints should be welcoming, gracious extenders of mercy and forgiveness in the same way that they have experienced Christ’s mercy and forgiveness. Such desirable attributes can be evidenced in any church of any denominational or ethnic background that gives itself to seeking to honour Christ in this way. Or, failing that, new expressions of community and oneness will emerge.

Comment by Mary Ann

April 28, 2008 @ 12:37 pm

Something that I really appreciated when I was a young believer was being in an environment where it didn’t matter who you were, if you felt that God was leading you to do something (in terms of serving the Lord), then you should be given the skills and the opportunity to do it. For example, if you feel inspired to take action to take care of the homeless, then the leaders of the church should empower you and send you out. If you felt led to preach, then the leaders should empower you and give you opportunity to preach. In my mind, I picture the “ideal” egalitarian church would be one that encourages its people to try different things and give them the freedom to follow God — without “red tape.”

Comment by Liz

April 28, 2008 @ 11:06 pm

Sounds wonderful Mary Ann and once again, it’s when leaders can give up their ‘authority’ and alow God to do things through everyone.

One of our best descriptions of an equality church is where you have a woman, a man, a child, a disabled person,a person with a mental illness. a person of asian descent, one of african descent, a university lecturer and an iliterate person all contributing in the same service. Oh yes…and one in barefeet and another all dressed up!!

In our church we did have all those people but not all on the same Sunday morning.

Comment by madame

April 29, 2008 @ 2:21 am

I am always a bit wary when people start talking about “feeling led”. There are people out there preaching, who I’m sure feel led, and are not fit to preach, teach or anything else. But I get what you mean.

For me, ideal would be church that has services where everyone can participate. I believe this encourages people to read the Bible for themselves. I think it’s dangerous when a pastor has too much “authority” because the congregation start looking at him/her for answers instead of Jesus, and people are easily persuaded by a well laid out theology (even if it’s just barely biblical!).

I don’t mean to say that there should be no preaching, but elders and pastors have to be teachable too, even children can teach very valuable lessons.

I think our idea of church is very far from the church in Acts, and a lot of regulations (prophesying, praying, sharing one by one, interpretation, etc…) are superfluous in our services because just one, usually blindly trusted pastor, teaches.

I don’t think an Egalitarian church is necessary, just a new reformation!

Comment by fjs, Faith

April 29, 2008 @ 5:59 am

Equipping… I love the idea of expositional teaching/preaching but also equipping that would help everyone begin to be good interpreters of the word. Then when the “biblical role” wars surface there is a desposit of biblical interpretation methodology to draw on.

Re: Viola, The nature of the house church movement is that anyone may become equipped to begin a home based church and equip others.

Comment by kathyescobar

April 29, 2008 @ 10:24 am

i am glad you are dreaming…we are living out a taste of what it is to have men & women working alongside and experimenting with the dream. here are a few thoughts to consider:

- i think just being an egalitarian church and living that out is more important than talking about it all the time - there’s something about just being who we are instead of trying to say who we are that is important.

- how are different voices and textures included? we love conversation, we like a wide variety of voices and opinions and perspectives to have a place to be heard. This has to be really intentional, otherwise, all of the “smart, loud” people will be the only voices. How are usually unrepresented voices given an opportunity?

- how is true community developed & valued & nurtured? does relationship with each other and our neighbors become the highest value or does the “service” which i think is a danger. We talk about it a lot, that basically being in community means we are supposed to be bugged, we are supposed to disagree, we are supposed to be uncomfortable, but that is where so much beautiful spiritual transformation can take place if we stay in for the long haul. We have had people leave the refuge because they don’t want to be around “such messy people”, they want more “worship” or “more teaching” or “more this or that”. i understand, i am sure there are lot of places to find those things, but i think new communities need to be very careful about not trying to make everyone happy and consider what the highest values are of that community and stick with them and not waver. It is tricky to do, easier said than done.

enough rambling, look forward to seeing the dream become reality…

Comment by Can Dance

April 29, 2008 @ 4:14 pm

Well I am one of the members of the Pikes Peak chapter and I don’t feel that we started out with the base being the egalitarian side of things. I don’t think this post properly conveyed what we were saying. We assumed that of course it would be egalitarian, that wasn’t the point. The point was that when you start to peel one layer of assumptions away, there are many other things that follow. Like the set hierarchy model of the church for example. It seems there is a tension between the formal process of ordination of church leaders, and the simple way it was done in the early church. that separation between the “laity” and the “clergy” and the problem with that. and how the church even functions, Viola addressed a lot of that in Pagan Christianity. I am the one who mentioned the Quaker model, as I like the idea of having a Spirit led meeting every time. and the trust that it takes on everyone’s part to embrace that God will indeed show up and use one of His people. If we are all priests, then why do we have priests that we expect to feed us every Sunday instead of doing our own study?
I see a lot of separation in churches, by race, class, gender, interests, age, and I think it should be different.
That was the point. that it’s egalitarian was not a very big deal to us.

Comment by Can Dance

April 29, 2008 @ 4:21 pm

We also never discussed the “way” the word would be taught. or the “doctrine” that it would espouse, because that was one of the questions we asked ourselves - would we ditch the church in its current form completely (because my goodness there is a lot wrong with it, and it really looks nothing like the early church at all), and if we were to do that, I agree that it would become most likely legalistic. I think we would all agree however, that the basic doctrines of Christianity would stay in place. The tradition part of it is what was up for grabs.
I am only speaking for me and what I think, just in case we have another member post here.

Comment by fjs, Faith

April 30, 2008 @ 7:11 am

I was in Pikes Peak area at a local coffee shop at the foot of Pikes Peak. I was grieving over the few egalitarian churches in the area. One of my children visited nearly every evangelical church and found none to be egalitarian.

I was hit in the core… and thought about or dreamed about a church that from the ground up would be egalitarian. I think that is the only way to accomplish the dream –start new churches with that idea incorporated as a part of the core beliefs from the get-go.

That day, in the coffee shop, I prayed for an egalitarian church in the Colorado Springs area.

I live far away and was only visiting that day… but will pray for your efforts to begin and vision a church.

Blessings… you are doing a good thing.

Comment by fjs, Faith

April 30, 2008 @ 7:14 am

if you need a planting pastor…. ???

Comment by Liz

April 30, 2008 @ 7:19 am

FJS, you are right about starting off as egalitarian. We spent over 35 years gradually adapting and changing and moving towards a fully egalitarian church and we had many wins and some losses. People were at so many different stages in their beliefs and ideas about the status of women and men and we didn’t so much teach as demonstrate. Most people liked what they saw (we were working it out ourselves) but a typical comment was….”I love what you do and how you do it - just don’t call yourself an elder” In time I was accepted as a pastor but it took years and quite a bit of pain along the way for us both.

Comment by fjs, Faith

April 30, 2008 @ 8:16 am

I know Liz, I have even been in churches whose denominations are egalitarian, accepting at the top and in academia and even ordain and encourage women but it is at the congregational level that there is so much work to do. Most folks think that by prohibiting women they are somehow saving the church. Few that I have encountered have ever heard another biblical case from scripture other than a traditional one.

Often newcomers or non-church people are way more accepting and don’t even question my role as pastor.

I have been dreaming of an egaliartian church for a long time–one that teaches marriage groups from an equal perspective, models it in the community, preaches/teaches it in the congregation, and in among the children and youth.

We are testing ourselves, my spouse and I in our current ministry venue. We are attracting a weird group– mostly non-churched men and women –without trying the usual church growth strategies.

I was afraid that men would not come if I was the preacher… but we learned that it is life and freedom in Christ that is attractive not the masculinity stuff or the male presence teachings. My spouse and I are who we are… and God is doing something among us.

We are learning so much. Focus on Jesus comes more naturally because we’re not so anxious about who does what in the family and church and whether or not the man is leading and the women are following.

Anyway that is my limited experience.

Hurdles to church planting within denominations are: getting experience, finding mother churches who will partner, getting denominational backing etc. In mine, one needs to be invited to a church planter assessment.

Outside of denominations, there are no barriers–just need gather a core group and begin in a home.

I wish we could begin a church planting movement.

Comment by Can Dance

April 30, 2008 @ 8:25 am

I think its true, we have three that I know about, only one (?) of which is evangelical. I personally go to First Pres, which is a mainline church obviously. The one I know about is Hope Covenant, its about a 30 minute drive from my house though.
Yep, very patriarchal here. I won’t use the word “conservative” because it’s not an accurate description of being egal or not. you can still be egal and be very conservative.

Comment by Edith

April 30, 2008 @ 2:10 pm

I am another member of the Pikes Peak group. It is very hard to find an egalitarian church in Colorado Springs. I have not found one yet. We really need a church planter in our area. After reading the book, Pagan Christianity, I am looking for an organic or house church and I have not found one. I want to find a church, which is closest to the original design of the church. If the church is according to the original design and the Holy Spirit is active in each member, it will be an egalitarian church. I absolutely agree with Bilezekian in Community 101, community is a must and of course a community under the direction of the Holy Spirit.
Did the first churches have expositional preaching? I don’t remember Paul mentioning it.
For me living out what Christ taught is more important than passively listening to a person preaching on theology. In other words, I want the Word of God being lived out by the members rather than listened to and discussed. At this time, I am tired of nice, charismatic, and intellectual speeches, I want to see action. I want to be in a church that lives church.
Somebody mentioned Doctrine. The doctrine of the early church was very simple and basic. The more we add to the doctrine of the church the more it becomes distorted.

Comment by fjs, Faith

May 1, 2008 @ 7:00 am

It sounds like the CO Springs group has a vision for a church plant that is organic, home-based, with a living theology and is egalitarian. Cool vision!!! The Evangelical Covenant might back you up, perhaps Hope Cov could be your mother church.

I am going to be in Co Spings mothers day week visiting my daughter… how can we hook just to visit.

Comment by fjs, Faith

May 1, 2008 @ 7:09 am

If you go to the Evangelical Covenant Church WEbsite, click on church planting… Don Davenport and Dave Olson are the church planting leaders. They can help you get started and find a church planter suited to your vision. They have a great support network for new churches and are willing to be innovative. I think you need a core of a least five families to begin. Check it out.

I wish we could plant a church in every community with an egalitarian vision. Then such community could be experienced and such experience could revolutionize the country.

I studied church planting movements in Sem. In countries like India and China such movements begin as house churches, train leaders who plant more house churches who train leaders and plant more house churches. Then an equipper continues gathering and supporting and training leaders. Such movements have spread quickly and organically throughout their nations under the radar so to speak.

If you google church planting movements, you may find the books.

Comment by fjs, Faith J. Totushek

May 1, 2008 @ 7:32 am

The other thing you could do is contact the Frank Viola web-site, attend one of his seminars and ask about the process of church planting per your vision.

I would encourage you to gather an interested group and define your vision. Then you will know if a particular church planter is in alignment with your desires and heart. If there is disagreement on style of ministry, plant two churches–one home-based and the other more traditional.

I can meet you at the big mall at the play area beside the book store… you will know me because I will have a copy of Pagan Christianity. name the time, I am there from the 12th to the 16th.

Comment by Liz

May 1, 2008 @ 8:50 am

Going back a bit, I’d like to make a comment re ‘expository preaching’
Like many things in church life, it can mean different things to different people but I think this kind of teaching is what is needed so people can learn to read the bible within the cultural context and with the whole chapter or book in mind.
The opposite is just picking one or two verses and making a sermon from them which may be useful sometimes but that is one way people can make asumptions about what certain verses mean eg the classic Eph. 5 verses which are taken as commands without looking at context of the whole book, Paul’s general attitude to women and men and some understanding of the cultural setting.

Comment by Edith

May 1, 2008 @ 10:40 am

Well, It is my vision. I am not sure how many families we can find to start an organic church in Colorado Springs, but if God brings the people together than I am all for it.
Faith J. T., I want to meet you when you come to Colorado Springs.My email is mysteryofadam@yahoo.com. Please write me an email and we can make arrangements how we can meet.
what church does your daughter attend?

Comment by Dietrich Bonhoeffer

May 1, 2008 @ 2:01 pm

Every human wish dream that is injected into the Christian community is a hindrance to genuine community and must be banished if genuine community is to survive. He who loves his dream of community more than the Christian community itself becomes a destroyer of the latter, even though his personal intentions may be ever so honest and earnest and sacrificial.

God hates visionary dreaming; it makes a dreamer proud and pretentious. The man who fashions a visionary ideal of community demands that it be realized by God, by others, and by himself. He enters the community of Christians with his demands, sets up his own law, and judges the brethren and God Himself accordingly. He stands adamant, a living reproach to all others in the circle of brethren. He acts as if he is the creator of the Christian community, as if his dream binds men together. When things do not go his way, he calls the effort a failure. When his ideal picture is destroyed, he sees the community going to smash. So he becomes, first an accuser of his brethren, then an accuser of God, and finally the despairing accuser of himself.

Because God has already laid the only foundation of our fellowship, because God has bound us together in one body with other Christians in Jesus Christ, long before we entered into common life with them, we enter into that common life not as demanders but as thankful recipients. We thank God for what He has done for us. We thank God for giving us brethren who live by His call, by His forgiveness, and His promise. We do not complain of what God does not give us; we rather thank God for what He does give us daily….

Comment by Sparky

May 1, 2008 @ 6:04 pm

OK. This is ‘Guest’ who posted the original message, from the Pikes Peak Area Chapter. Call me “Sparky.” I have been reading everyone’s comments with great interest. But I think, with the exception of Edith’s comments about the church being led by the Spirit, most of you have missed the seminal idea behind our discussion.
We do not want ‘church as usual’ minus the patriarchy. We do not want a ‘mother church’. We do not want a pastor. We do not want a Sunday School. We do not want a hierarchy. We want God. We want to find out what God wants from each of us, and how can we translate His design for our individual lives into a community. Perhaps I should never have used the word ‘church’ because is so loaded with cultural expectations, and our goal was to look far beyond those expectations, to look to God. I, for one, am not interested in replicating the first century church, nor, I think, is that what God wants.
I think that our focus is to live out daily what is holy — not what tradition says is ‘holy’, but to seek, as for gold and silver, that which is of God in our lives and in the world. Then, focus in on creating small, sustainable communities — no more than 15 people in each one, and find out how to truly live the Christian life, serving one another. Not legalism. Not a church building. Not a hierarchy. None of that works, if you’re expecting a life lived in the Spirit of God. Something radically new, something that is built and driven by the Spirit of God, something that is, well, a bit scary: remember when Moses came down off the mountain, and his face was glowing with the radiance of the glory of God? And the people made him cover it up –because to see something of the holiness of God made them conscious of their sinfulness, and they did not know what do to, or how to react. They were frightened of this ‘new’ thing, this face to face contact with the living God, and wanted church-as-usual. I suggest that we need to move beyond that concept, and step out into the unknown, perhaps the cloud of unknowing awaits each of us who seek.
Tom Stella, in his book “A Faith Worth Believing”, said, ‘As they grow spiritually, many people find it difficult to maintain a connection with organized religion, for the experiences and beliefs that fuel their lives go far beyond the creed, cult, and code that define the meaning and the message of conventional religious thinking… What I seek is to give expression to my own (and to humankind’s) deepest longing and beliefs. It is not answers to the unknown that I desire, but a way of relating to what can never be grasped…Religious doctrine can be a problem if we let its answers prevent us from living life’s riddles, for it is in this way that we come to a deeper faith.’
Sparky.

Comment by Sparky

May 1, 2008 @ 8:39 pm

Sparky continues:
Sorry - I had to be somewhere else, and I hated to leave in the midst of a thought. Richard Rohr, OFM, said, “People who have had any genuine spiritual experience, always know that they don’t know. They are utterly humbled before the mystery, in awe before the abyss of it all, in wonder at eternity and depth, and a Love which is incomprehensible to the mind. It is a litmus test for authentic God experience, and is - quite sadly - absent in much of our religious conversation today. My belief and comfort is in the depths of Mystery, which should be the very task of religion.”
My reason for starting the discussion about the ‘ideal’ church, which, by the way, we named The Egalitarian Church of the Extremely DiffiCult, is to focus not on creating a clone, albeit an egalitarian clone, of the organized church, but to ask ourselves if perhaps, we as Christians, have been focusing our religious lives on works rather than on spiritual life. Patriarchy is simply, to me, a manifestation of a works mentality that has all but crushed out the true source of spiritual growth. If Jesus wants us to be in unity with each other, can we honestly achieve that by works of our hands, i.e., build a new church building, add a new Sunday school class, create a new seminary curriculum; or is it time to refocus and find out what Jesus meant, and what He wanted that he called ‘unity’? It is a tough question. Do we want business-as-usual, or are we willing to let Moses stand there, glowing with the light of heaven, and say to our God, “We want what he has.”
Sparky

Comment by Liz

May 1, 2008 @ 9:21 pm

Hi Sparky. Not all of us who have commented are talking merely about ‘church’ as in the formal, organised, human construct but about The church which Jesus began and which continues to this day even within organised church groups.

Many of us have experienced what you are desiring and maybe have tasted of true fellowship and one-ness. It can be known within church structures or without. Every time humans try to begin something radical it is always tainted with the ‘human-ness’ or sinfulness of it all but the idealism is admirable.

I mentioned our church gatherings where we had people of all shapes, sizes, ages, abilities and eventually no gender bias. We experienced something very unique which will go with us all into eternity - we had a taste of what we believe ‘church’ should look like - not the structure but the heart.

Also, maybe it’s time for a reminder that this blog is about true biblical equality among all of God’s people and why this is so important. Any groups which majors on this will surely be pleasing to God (I think someone already said this)

Comment by Trevor

May 2, 2008 @ 8:19 am

Just backing up a little to one of Edith’s earlier comments, within a comment, (85767) about ‘expositional teaching’ with the question, “Did the first churches have expositional teaching? I don’t remember Paul mentioning it.”

I know that Liz has already commented on this (85912) and while I agree with her brief summation I would like to add that while Paul did not specifically mention it, he and the other members of the apostolic band certainly practised it, which is evident when we read recorded examples of their sermons in the New Testament, like Acts 3;12-26, where the Apostle Peter is speaking.

While Peter or Paul may not have defined their messages, or preaching opportunities as expository sermons, their very style and content categorised them as expository in that they expounded or opened up, by using Scripture to explain Scripture, God’s revealed truth. As they declared God’s word, by the power of His Holy Spirit God brought conviction and repentence into the lives of the hearers. God has similarly used other gifted men and women preachers down through the ages to bring people back into relationship with Himself.

I’m concerned that in our admirable desire to jettison all of that which seems to relate to the patriarchal traditions and ‘church per se’ as we ‘re-form’ the church we may downplay the powerful part that preaching, in the way that God intended it be used, has in the changing of people’s lives and in the formation of true christian unity and community. Powerful, God inspired preaching and teaching does something deep in the human heart that debate and dialogue cannot do. If we are persuaded of one truth, by reason and logic alone, we can be equally un-persuaded and give way to another. Whereas when an illumination of the Spirit takes place, often through the faithful and God dependent presentation of God’s word, lives are transformed by the welcoming of the indwelling power of God’s Spirit. Paul declared his confidence in preaching above other forms of persuasion on numerous occasions (see for example the whole sense of 1 Corinthians 1:18-21) and was so humbled that God should appoint him to be a preacher, Ephesians 3:7-9.

The gift list, while not comprehensive, in Ephesians 4, notably verses 11,12 speaks of God’s means of equipping the church for growth in maturity and ultimately service (verses 13-16) and its gifted people that God gives to His church. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers whose primary responsibility it is to, “… equip God’s people to do His work and build up the church, the body of Christ, until we come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature and full grown in the Lord, measuring up to the full stature of Christ.” NLT

Whatever shape the church takes it must include these gifted individuals who will be used of God to achieve this glorious ideal. Some of these gifted people minister through the printed page. Perhaps some are the authors of books already referred to in this topic, but as wonderful as that may be it does not take the place (in my mind) of faithful, God inspired expository preaching.

Comment by Ashleigh

May 2, 2008 @ 8:24 am

I second that, Liz.

I think God has given us remarkable freedom as to what the “Church” would become, in organizational terms, and each way of doing things has its benefits.

Perhaps the wording of the original post just wasn’t the most precise– it doesn’t seem you’re asking us to consider the “ideal” egalitarian church but rather one very specific kind of egalitarian church. It sounds like a lot of you feel strongly about the church as an institution, perhaps having been significantly hurt by it in the past. Even if you choose to have a “less organized” church, there are still significant bodies of Christians (including many who are egalitarian and many who are not) that remain your family in Christ. I would strongly encourage remaining interdependent allies with these other churches, though they perhaps run things with some different priorities.

Comment by BJB

May 3, 2008 @ 8:18 am

It seems to me that we need to be careful not to forget the great commission of making disciples for Jesus when we talk of the ideal church. Whether it is small house churches or small groups doing the things indicated but also part of a larger church setting, they ideally are multiplying groups, making new disciples for Jesus. Lots of other things are essential too, but that one is way too easy to forget. And something those starting new churches can easily forget as they correctly try to get their doctrine correct, their practices godly, and their service to the needy in place.

Comment by fjs, Faith J. Totushek

May 6, 2008 @ 4:08 pm

Re exegesis and expositional teaching. Personally, I grew and found freedom in Christ through teaching. I think folks receive from God in vastly different ways depending on who we are. And spirituality takes a variety of amazing forms as we seek to meet with God relationally. We are all so different.

Personally, it was in exposition of scripture that I met God and first knew him as deliverer. I believe the Spirit is at work in a variety of ways in the lives of believers. I also believe that the Spirit does not stop working if I open a commentary or study really hard. It is all about the relationship we are in with God… he is just so good and so gracious that he meets us where we are and in what we need.

Sometimes I needed to study to get past some religious roadblock from my own religious past. Everyone comes to the bible with so many pre-formed ideas. I had so much to overcome that I had to study hard.

I am sorry for any offence, my apologies to the pikes peak folks. You have good ideas and a great dream - hope you create something awesome. My prayers are with you… I connected because I dreamed there once.

Comment by Hope

May 6, 2008 @ 7:25 pm

Thank you Pike’s Peak group for an interesting discussion topic! For anyone interested, the Greater Chicago chapter is meeting this Friday, 5/9 and will have an open discussion about this topic. We may add our collective thoughts to this blog :). We will meet at First Presbyterian Church of Glen Ellyn at 7pm.

Comment by Carol

May 8, 2008 @ 9:54 am

I wonder if the hunger is not so much for a church as it is for the Kingdom of God. Jesus was proclaiming the Kingdom, and He talked a lot about what the Kingdom was like. I hunger to live in and live out the Kingdom and to find and know the Kingdom and Kingdom life whether it’s in a church or not. And in that Kingdom everyone is “equal,” whether they’ve yet discovered it or not. If some members of the Kingdom meet together from time to time and choose to call their meeting a “church,” so be it. I don’t feel very interested in trying to figure out what that church would/should look like. What matters to me is the Kingdom. When I go to “church,” it helps me to think of it simply as a place where some people are living in the Kingdom and some are not. I don’t go for the “church.” I go for the Kingdom life among those there who are living in the Kingdom, which I also find outside of the “church.”

Comment by Gramma Martha Mdiv.

May 12, 2008 @ 9:20 pm

My husband and I have been teaching on the Holy Spirit and an original course we call Bible Mapping at Rescue Mission/Recovery type ministries for several years. We have been humbled to find ourselves at times enfolded in expressions of community—koinonia—beyond anything we have experienced in traditional church culture. Men are free to say, “I love you, brother.” Pretenses are largely stripped away. Equality is real. In this population, that we call “our alternative world,” we also find the desire for a new kind of congregation for believers beyond recovery.

I agree that church is not the best word for this discussion. The Greek eglesia was the word used by the Jewish translators in the Septuagint for congregation. Church was a later import.

The Jewish people who first heard Jesus’ message had a long history of worship through sacrifice at the Tabernacle/Temple. They had a later tradition of gathering from the synagogue. I believe their home meetings were more like a synagogue gathering. Yet, for many years my questions about church resulted in God sending me back to the plan of the original Tabernacle. Moses was shown the original in heaven, and God planned it all. The symbolism of the materials has received much attention, but the sequence of activity from the “gate” in the curtains to the Holy of Holies gives us a pattern for interaction in relationship with God that God has never changed. Check it out.

Beyond that, churches in America are guaranteed constitutional freedom in America that has been too little valued. With the passage of legislation that provided for churches to be 501C3 charitable organizations as corporations, many churches have submitted to the state and conformed to the structure of state corporation. This structure requires a hierarchical type of government. No congregation need be a state corporation. I found “unincorporated churches” my best search term on the internet.

There is a growing move toward home fellowships as the foundation for building a larger congregation. Willow Creek Church has undergone a massive restructuring that is described in “Building a Church of Small Groups” by Bill Donahue and Russ Robison.

We are finding that God is moving us by small steps toward forming a “Free Church” that will provide spiritual oversight for a variety of ministries that may or may not themselves be incorporated.

Think outside the box of church as usual. You do not need a “church planter.” Start meeting as followers of Jesus led by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. He will meet you there!

Comment by Liz

May 13, 2008 @ 1:38 am

Great words of encouragement above which give hope for all that Jesus is still building his ‘church’