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	<title>Comments on: Translation of words</title>
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	<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/05/translation-of-words/</link>
	<description>Blog voices from Christians for Biblical Equality</description>
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		<title>By: jlp</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/05/translation-of-words/comment-page-1/#comment-87714</link>
		<dc:creator>jlp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 01:58:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=210#comment-87714</guid>
		<description>Steve,

When you say men are to take primary responsibility for the fall, which scriptures are you basing this on?

Also- on what scriptures are you basing the idea that men are the federal head of the race?

And what do you mean &quot;federal head.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>When you say men are to take primary responsibility for the fall, which scriptures are you basing this on?</p>
<p>Also- on what scriptures are you basing the idea that men are the federal head of the race?</p>
<p>And what do you mean &#8220;federal head.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/05/translation-of-words/comment-page-1/#comment-87708</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 17:07:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=210#comment-87708</guid>
		<description>Since we are talking about words and their meanings, I&#039;ve a quick question on the CBE Basis of Faith regarding the Fall.  Note the confessional wording in tenet number four of the document.  

4. The Bible teaches that man and woman were co-participants in the Fall: Adam was no less culpable than Eve (Gen 3:6; Rom 5:12-21; 1Cor 15:21-22).

With all due respect, this contention seems boldly in error.  Adam takes primary responsibility for the Fall -- as Federal head of the race, does he not?
Indeed, his rebellion is imputed to humanity, just as Christ&#039;s righteousness is imputed to believers. Indeed the entire doctrine of imputation is at stake, if the CBE statement is correct.  

Consequently the equal sharing of culpability as indicated in the statement above sounds attractive and in keeping with certain notions of equality, but it is clearly contrary to the biblical account.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since we are talking about words and their meanings, I&#8217;ve a quick question on the CBE Basis of Faith regarding the Fall.  Note the confessional wording in tenet number four of the document.  </p>
<p>4. The Bible teaches that man and woman were co-participants in the Fall: Adam was no less culpable than Eve (Gen 3:6; Rom 5:12-21; 1Cor 15:21-22).</p>
<p>With all due respect, this contention seems boldly in error.  Adam takes primary responsibility for the Fall &#8212; as Federal head of the race, does he not?<br />
Indeed, his rebellion is imputed to humanity, just as Christ&#8217;s righteousness is imputed to believers. Indeed the entire doctrine of imputation is at stake, if the CBE statement is correct.  </p>
<p>Consequently the equal sharing of culpability as indicated in the statement above sounds attractive and in keeping with certain notions of equality, but it is clearly contrary to the biblical account.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Geis</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/05/translation-of-words/comment-page-1/#comment-86484</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Geis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 22:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=210#comment-86484</guid>
		<description>Just an observation from someone having translated Jude and written a commentary based on that translation.  It seems to me that the translator must not only consider the semantic range of a given word, but its actual usage in the verse and its contextual congruence.  Or more simply stated, unless there are obvious clues in the proceeding and following texts that clearly demonstrate that Paul was only referring to men, the word would be better translated as &quot;people.&quot; The principle that &quot;any text without a context is a pretext&quot; can also be applied to the translation of individual words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just an observation from someone having translated Jude and written a commentary based on that translation.  It seems to me that the translator must not only consider the semantic range of a given word, but its actual usage in the verse and its contextual congruence.  Or more simply stated, unless there are obvious clues in the proceeding and following texts that clearly demonstrate that Paul was only referring to men, the word would be better translated as &#8220;people.&#8221; The principle that &#8220;any text without a context is a pretext&#8221; can also be applied to the translation of individual words.</p>
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		<title>By: madame</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/05/translation-of-words/comment-page-1/#comment-86475</link>
		<dc:creator>madame</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 18:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=210#comment-86475</guid>
		<description>Faith, 
I agree with you.  I posted parts of the article I linked to, to show that &quot;traditionalists&quot; (also known as patriarchal) fear losing the God given order if they accept any other teaching than the one they adhere to.

I don&#039;t think that patriarchalism, at least the way it&#039;s lived out, is God&#039;s will. 
You are right, before the fall, Adam and Eve stood side by side and were given dominion TOGETHER.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Faith,<br />
I agree with you.  I posted parts of the article I linked to, to show that &#8220;traditionalists&#8221; (also known as patriarchal) fear losing the God given order if they accept any other teaching than the one they adhere to.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that patriarchalism, at least the way it&#8217;s lived out, is God&#8217;s will.<br />
You are right, before the fall, Adam and Eve stood side by side and were given dominion TOGETHER.</p>
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		<title>By: faith</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/05/translation-of-words/comment-page-1/#comment-86473</link>
		<dc:creator>faith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 18:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=210#comment-86473</guid>
		<description>Madame, In Genesis 1:26-28, we read that the man and the woman were called to govern the earth.  It is referred to the cultural mandate.  They were to govern togther as regents of God created in his image.  Only after the Fall did that governing become patriarchial.  All cultures since have been influaced by post fall cultures in which fallen humanity has been a part.  Christ came to redeem fallen humanity and restore what had been lost in the fall.  I disagree with you that God set up a particular patriarchial culture.

Indeed I believe he worked within cultures and among people with particular cultural worldviews.  I do not think God ordered that culture.  We participate with him in his work.  The effects are largely based on how well we listen and act on What is in God&#039;s heart for his world.  

If God created a patriarchial he would be responsible for all the havoc and evil that patriarchial cultures are guilty of.  I truly believe God seeks to influance us according to his character and heart of justice.  He seeks to transform culture.

futhermore.  all patriarchial cultures around the world believe that the gods gave them their cultures.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Madame, In Genesis 1:26-28, we read that the man and the woman were called to govern the earth.  It is referred to the cultural mandate.  They were to govern togther as regents of God created in his image.  Only after the Fall did that governing become patriarchial.  All cultures since have been influaced by post fall cultures in which fallen humanity has been a part.  Christ came to redeem fallen humanity and restore what had been lost in the fall.  I disagree with you that God set up a particular patriarchial culture.</p>
<p>Indeed I believe he worked within cultures and among people with particular cultural worldviews.  I do not think God ordered that culture.  We participate with him in his work.  The effects are largely based on how well we listen and act on What is in God&#8217;s heart for his world.  </p>
<p>If God created a patriarchial he would be responsible for all the havoc and evil that patriarchial cultures are guilty of.  I truly believe God seeks to influance us according to his character and heart of justice.  He seeks to transform culture.</p>
<p>futhermore.  all patriarchial cultures around the world believe that the gods gave them their cultures.</p>
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		<title>By: faith</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/05/translation-of-words/comment-page-1/#comment-86472</link>
		<dc:creator>faith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 18:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=210#comment-86472</guid>
		<description>JLP, ya gotta ask why?  what would they lose?  It could be a profound spiritual formation moment if it were examined... what is it so important to maintain the head role?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JLP, ya gotta ask why?  what would they lose?  It could be a profound spiritual formation moment if it were examined&#8230; what is it so important to maintain the head role?</p>
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		<title>By: madame</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/05/translation-of-words/comment-page-1/#comment-86468</link>
		<dc:creator>madame</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 09:50:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=210#comment-86468</guid>
		<description>Re. Patriarchal and complementarian teachers, they are afraid of &quot;losing something&quot; if they allow Scripture to change their view. 

(quote)
3. Culture is not happenstance, but prepared by God. Israel with its patriarchal system was peculiarly designed by God as his vehicle of divine truth. Moreover, in &quot;the fullness of time&quot; the gospel came. Thus, Christianity holds that Biblical patterns are significant and normative. They reflect the mystery of the divine order. To man is confided the task of ruling; to woman the task of serving

4. The symbolism of the relationship of God to his people (Hosea) and of Christ to his church (Eph. 5) demands a male officeholder in the church and a male authority in the home. Only in this way is divine authority, dominion, and supremacy adequately portrayed. We are not free to tamper with the Biblical imagery without losing some of the mystery.

5. The virgin Mary exemplifies the ideal woman in her voluntary submission and response to the will of God.

6. The principles of obedience, submission, and authority are clear in both the Old and New Testament. The teaching regarding a hierarchy in male and female relationships is only one aspect of a larger and necessary ordering of all reality that extends into the Godhead itself ©£ Christ&#039;s obedience and submission to the Father and the Holy Spirit&#039;s subordination to the Son). In the created order, this hierarchical structure provides each level of being its proper responsibility and privileges -- archangels, angels, men, women, children, animals, etc.
(end of quote from the article I link to below)

I believe translation and interpretation of some passages is biased and needs revision. For example, Titus 2.5 translates the word &quot;Hupotasso&quot; as obedience instead of submission (KJV, only Bible some Patriarchs and Comps will use)
The varied interpretations of submission are also notorious. Why is it that Ephesians 5.21 is taken to mean respect/esteem/give into (milder meanings) and in verse 22 it means &quot;obey&quot; (not translated as obey, but it&#039;s the connotation used when it&#039;s preached)?

To answer the question about anthropos, it means human, not just man.  Aner is the word for man and husband, while gyne is the one for woman and wife. 

Some Complementarians try to fix it by translating &quot;wife&quot; in the context of not usurping authority/teaching/preaching/ wearing veil, etc.  It&#039;s convenient and seems to make sense, but it&#039;s a faulty solution. 

This article is interesting.

http://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=3277&amp;C=2729</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re. Patriarchal and complementarian teachers, they are afraid of &#8220;losing something&#8221; if they allow Scripture to change their view. </p>
<p>(quote)<br />
3. Culture is not happenstance, but prepared by God. Israel with its patriarchal system was peculiarly designed by God as his vehicle of divine truth. Moreover, in &#8220;the fullness of time&#8221; the gospel came. Thus, Christianity holds that Biblical patterns are significant and normative. They reflect the mystery of the divine order. To man is confided the task of ruling; to woman the task of serving</p>
<p>4. The symbolism of the relationship of God to his people (Hosea) and of Christ to his church (Eph. 5) demands a male officeholder in the church and a male authority in the home. Only in this way is divine authority, dominion, and supremacy adequately portrayed. We are not free to tamper with the Biblical imagery without losing some of the mystery.</p>
<p>5. The virgin Mary exemplifies the ideal woman in her voluntary submission and response to the will of God.</p>
<p>6. The principles of obedience, submission, and authority are clear in both the Old and New Testament. The teaching regarding a hierarchy in male and female relationships is only one aspect of a larger and necessary ordering of all reality that extends into the Godhead itself ©£ Christ&#8217;s obedience and submission to the Father and the Holy Spirit&#8217;s subordination to the Son). In the created order, this hierarchical structure provides each level of being its proper responsibility and privileges &#8212; archangels, angels, men, women, children, animals, etc.<br />
(end of quote from the article I link to below)</p>
<p>I believe translation and interpretation of some passages is biased and needs revision. For example, Titus 2.5 translates the word &#8220;Hupotasso&#8221; as obedience instead of submission (KJV, only Bible some Patriarchs and Comps will use)<br />
The varied interpretations of submission are also notorious. Why is it that Ephesians 5.21 is taken to mean respect/esteem/give into (milder meanings) and in verse 22 it means &#8220;obey&#8221; (not translated as obey, but it&#8217;s the connotation used when it&#8217;s preached)?</p>
<p>To answer the question about anthropos, it means human, not just man.  Aner is the word for man and husband, while gyne is the one for woman and wife. </p>
<p>Some Complementarians try to fix it by translating &#8220;wife&#8221; in the context of not usurping authority/teaching/preaching/ wearing veil, etc.  It&#8217;s convenient and seems to make sense, but it&#8217;s a faulty solution. </p>
<p>This article is interesting.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=3277&amp;C=2729" rel="nofollow">http://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=3277&amp;C=2729</a></p>
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		<title>By: jlp</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/05/translation-of-words/comment-page-1/#comment-86467</link>
		<dc:creator>jlp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 07:18:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=210#comment-86467</guid>
		<description>I do think some comps feel they are going to lose something if men don&#039;t retain the upper position in gender relations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do think some comps feel they are going to lose something if men don&#8217;t retain the upper position in gender relations.</p>
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		<title>By: faith</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/05/translation-of-words/comment-page-1/#comment-86466</link>
		<dc:creator>faith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 23:55:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=210#comment-86466</guid>
		<description>I used to fear the complimentarian interpretations because they asserted them as &quot;biblical&quot;, now I see their agenda too.  And while I fear the power they still rein on so many christians who are afraid of being unbiblical if they venture into freedom for men and women, I no longer fear their interpretation as more biblical... I see the lenses and their anxiety about losing whatever it is they fear losing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used to fear the complimentarian interpretations because they asserted them as &#8220;biblical&#8221;, now I see their agenda too.  And while I fear the power they still rein on so many christians who are afraid of being unbiblical if they venture into freedom for men and women, I no longer fear their interpretation as more biblical&#8230; I see the lenses and their anxiety about losing whatever it is they fear losing.</p>
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