The CBE Scroll

Blog voices from Christians for Biblical Equality

Grandma’s sermon

Filed under: Family, Personal Story — Guest at 8:57 am on Sunday, July 6, 2008

On Sunday morning, September 13, 1953, my father faced a really tough decision. My mother was in labor at the end of a troubled pregnancy that had included a late-term case of hard measles. She was headed to the hospital. But Dad was a fundamentalist preacher in a small church and had an obligation to lead the service and give the sermon. The problem was that he had no men to call on to give the sermon.

Enter his mother. She was a deep Christian with a thorough knowledge of the Scripture and led a life of service. She was there to help with the pregnancy. After careful, if hurried, prayer, Dad asked my grandmother to take the service. She agreed to do so.

At least two church members walked out when this woman went up to the pulpit. She would not “usurp” a man’s place by standing behind it, so she stood to one side and down a step.

If I could go back in time, I would rather hear that sermon than witness my own birth. As far as I know, it was the only sermon she ever gave. As the years progressed, my father grew a little more tolerant of women, at one time telling me “women are the backbone of the church.” Unfortunately, he never reached a point where he felt they should teach men. Unless, of course, it was his mother and he had somewhere very important to be.

I’m wondering if other people have had experiences with “breaking the rules” that have had an input on their lives perhaps edging them away from complementarianism; examples of the Spirit overriding human error to use His chosen minister to do His will? I’d love to hear about them.

22 Comments »

Comment by KM

July 6, 2008 @ 7:22 pm

While not a personal experience, when I read this remembrance of Marcella written by Jerome in 412 A.D. it seems clear to me that he is praising her for having been a “rule breaker”:

“Consequently after my departure from Rome, in case of a dispute arising as to the testimony of scripture on any subject, recourse was had to her to settle it. And so wise was she and so well did she understand what philosophers call τό πρέπον, that is, the becoming, in what she did, that when she answered questions she gave her own opinion not as her own but as from me or some one else, thus admitting that what she taught she had herself learned from others. For she knew that the apostle had said: “I suffer not a woman to teach,” and she would not seem to inflict a wrong upon the male sex many of whom (including sometimes priests) questioned her concerning obscure and doubtful points.”

Comment by KM

July 6, 2008 @ 7:25 pm

Oops! My apologies, the link for my comment didn’t come through.
Here it is:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf206.v.CXXVII.html

Comment by Mary

July 6, 2008 @ 7:49 pm

As a Wesleyan Christian, I found it very interesting that John Wesley, after being initially adamant that women should not be permitted to preach, learned by witnessing the fruits of women’s preaching that he was wrong. He recognized that the “fire in the bones” of several women in the Societies was indeed a call of God, disobedience to which was a kind of death. He realized that the conversion of sinners was of more importance than the outwardly conventional (gender) of the vessel God chose to bring about that conversion.

As a mentor of mine put it: “The more I listened to the stories the women told about how God called them, the more I realized their calls were just like mine. Who was I to argue with God about my fellow redeemed sinners being ‘unqualified’ to preach? Heck, we are ALL unqualified, but God calls us anyway. The only questions are, are we going to obey God, and are we going to hinder someone else from obeying God?”

Comment by Judy

July 10, 2008 @ 6:44 pm

I always quietly chuckled that in one church, while women could not preach, on Mother’s Day there was always a woman asked to give a message from behind the pulpit and no one seemed to mind.
I also chuckle when I see churches offering Kay Arthur’s courses given by a man on video instead of Kay so the men can watch too (a service she provides). Who do they think taught the men on the tapes…?

Comment by Judy

July 10, 2008 @ 6:49 pm

Another example that comes to mind is a local church that lost many of its congregants after the senior pastor retired. Not being able to fill the role of ‘music pastor’ and ‘youth pastor’ etc. with men, they were now using women in the same job and dropping the title ‘pastor’ from the position. Questions arose as to whether this was ‘legal.’ The women were doing a fine job, and no one wished to remove them….

Comment by Liz

July 11, 2008 @ 12:50 am

This reminds me of the years before our church constitution was changed to allow women elders or pastors. I functioned as an elder/pastor for many years rather than the traditional ‘pastor’s wife’ and one deacon made the statement…
“We love what you do and how you do it - just don’t call yourself an elder!”
Sometimes it is all about the title.

Comment by Lin

July 11, 2008 @ 2:09 pm

I loved this story! Thanks so much for sharing it.

I do not come from a fundamentalist background but it certainly did not have women preachers. They did everything else, deacons, music, etc. And this was even the SBC 40 years ago!

My grandmother used to get letters from pastors all the time with questions on the book of Romans. She was a very educated woman (college grad in 1910, taught college before marriage)She had a reputation as a scholar on the book of Romans in our area. Kind of amuses me that these pastors had no trouble inquiring of her but she could not teach from the pulpit.

Comment by Mary

July 12, 2008 @ 12:06 pm

Judy and Liz, that’s an excellent point about the titles. I also wonder, Judy: was there a corresponding drop in salary when the title was dropped. That is a widespread practice in churches that do employ women; they tend to get away with paying women less than they had been paying men. It’s interesting how some churches try to shroud their salary-paying history in secrecy.

Comment by Hubert Edgar

July 12, 2008 @ 1:51 pm

Lin, I think your remembrance makes a great and wider point. There are so many women writing theology at present. Men, even minister men, read them and learn. In doing so, these women are teaching men.

Comment by Judy

July 12, 2008 @ 3:29 pm

Mary,
Since the church was struggling the women filled the roles for free… As the church grew again compensation was considered only when a ‘permanent’ person was to be considered- i.e. hiring a man from outside the congregation with a degree, or other credentials. I do not believe anyone even thought to ask the women to fill the job as a full-time employee even though their work was excellent and caused the church to grow. To be fair, this sometimes happens to men too, who volunteer. Churches seem to have the idea that people who move to work at the church are better than the ones who are already in the congregation and have proven they have a servant’s heart…..

Comment by Mary

July 12, 2008 @ 6:30 pm

Thanks for the details, Judy. I find that sad, whoever it happens to. I work part-time for my church, so I’m definitely not in the “no-salaries for church workers” camp, but not being willing to pay skilled, faithful workers when the church can and ought to, is simply wrong, IMO.

As a pastor from my childhood put it (fortunately only in jest), “I’m paid to be good, you’re good for nothing.”

Comment by Sarah KJ

July 12, 2008 @ 6:43 pm

Great story, what did your grandmother preach on?

Comment by faith

July 14, 2008 @ 7:18 am

my first grandchild sees me preach when she visits. at three, she assumes all grandmas preach. amazing what modeling does.

Comment by Hubert Edgar

July 14, 2008 @ 10:47 am

Sarah KJ,

As far as I know, that was the only sermon my Grandmother ever gave. She was complementarian through-and-through. Interestingly, she would lead Bible studies. It’s something about that pulpit. It makes me wonder when the pulpit got started, when we made an “altar” for someone to preach from.

Judy, my father, a minister, told me several times an old saying about ministers. “You keep ‘em humble, Lord, and we’ll keep ‘em poor.” He was part-time and made $15 a week preaching back in the 60s-80s. The proper term is “tent-maker minister” after Paul’s other profession.

Comment by Hubert Edgar

July 15, 2008 @ 12:02 pm

Sarah KJ,

Sorry, I misread your question. I don’t know what the topic of the sermon was.

Comment by jlp

July 17, 2008 @ 6:49 pm

Thanks for sharing that story with us, Hubert.

Comment by jlp

July 18, 2008 @ 6:18 am

Thanks for sharing this story with us Hubert!

Comment by Liz

July 18, 2008 @ 8:56 am

Maybe a slight twist on ‘breaking the rules’ would be times when those who hold to headship are flexible in how they put it into practice. Today we read of a wedding where both parties had children from a previous marriage and each group of children ‘gave away’ their respective parents to the other parent. This was reported in what would be considered a conservative newsletter.

There are many examples of this sort of thing where complementarians ‘break the rules’ without even realising it. Let’s celebrate these happenings without any sense of finger-pointing and be glad that people get to experience a taste of equality.

Others may think of similar things they have observed.

Comment by Trevor

July 27, 2008 @ 1:41 am

As I’m reading these various stories it came to mind that when one of our sons accepted a call to minister in a relatively new church plant that had been pastorless for about two years a woman was holding the fort. She was very gifted in advising, counselling and pastoring the group in preparing the church to call another (male) minister. If this lady had occasion to speak or lead she probably wasn’t considered to be preaching but sharing!

When our son commenced ministry there she was most helpful in the transition process and no-one seemed to mind at all. Her long history and obvious giftedness and knowledge of the people seemed to cancel out any objections in the absence of a male leader. However, when our son became established in ministry her ‘up-front’ role ceased, though she continued to encourage, advise and offer directives to the new minister.

With this valuable experience in the background our son, who is egalitarian, assumed that it would be a relatively easy matter to lead the church into seeing women as equals and thus utilize their giftedness in various, visible forms of ministry within the church. He undertook this gently and other gifted women soon emerged and were employed in various ways. The next move was to push for constitutional change to incorporate what was acceptable in practice.

But, when push came to shove and the potential for such a (what seemed to the male elders) radical departure from the norm was suggested it was vigorously opposed by a former, wealthy and influential elder. This elder had recently stepped aside because of marriage difficulties and was in the midst of a trial separation. Even so, he threatened to resign membership and withdraw substantial financial support if the proposed amendment went ahead.

Even though the existing church elders remained unconvinced of equality and did not pursue the matter further at that time they did not close the door on the possibility either, offering to study the matter at greater length. This apparent compromise and inaction sufficiently disturbed the former elder enough for he and his wife to go ahead and resign their membership.

The church was thrown into a tailspin from which it never recovered. The lady of whom we spoke originally was very involved in the fallout, attempting to negotiate and have reason prevail despite the differences between the parties concerned. Our son was burnt out and demoralized in the process and felt that his resignation was his only recourse. The church plant was financially crippled and, on the recommendation of the elders, formally closed its doors.

Comment by leigh

August 6, 2008 @ 6:05 pm

Re: 87180

I am so sorry this happened. For everyone involved.

Although I confess that I was so frustrated and angry the first time that I read it, and the second time that I read it, etc., that I could not even have begun to respond. It is still sounds to me that so much of the problem, in *some* cases–in this case, certainly–is that a woman is free to do the work, so long as she is not given the title. Argh.

Thank you for sharing. It is a lesson that I needed to hear, that change is slow, and that what I yearn for (while righteous) is going to take time. God’s time is NOT at all my own, in this matter. Which I guess I do find strange, as it is the slander of God’s own character, for anyone to say that God does not want women speaking in his name to men (though women are free to speak in God’s name to children and to other women).

Comment by Hubert Edgar

August 7, 2008 @ 3:18 pm

Trevor, your story breaks my heart. My father was an independent Fundamentalist preacher and, as is so common in those little churches, we lived through several church splits and at least one shut down. I had to return from Minnesota to Oklahoma to help with that shut down because my father just had too many years in that church and congregation. He just couldn’t handle walking through all of that. Your son has my sympathies. I hope he is or will be back in the pulpit. We need more egalitarian ministers!

Comment by Liz

August 7, 2008 @ 11:08 pm

The good news is that we are currently staying with our son, Lee, and his family in their new ministry situation 2 hours from our home. He has his commissioning service this coming Sunday (10th) so after 3 years out of ministry there is a brand new start in a church which is more favourable to women in ministry and many more freedoms as well.. It’s a thriving church in a coastal resort town and has a Christian school attached so there’s new experiences to be had by all. It’s been a huge learning curve for Lee & Cathy and they are so blessed to have this ’second chance’.

RSS feed for comments on this post.

Leave a comment

XHTML: You can use these tags: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>