The CBE Scroll

Comment by Carol Roberts

July 24, 2008 @ 7:11 am

Just back from the conference, I want to add that despite the sad stories we heard (and not all were from women), over and over again we saw ways that God over-rides discrimination and prejudice and really all kinds of opposition to bring about redemption. I was thrilled to hear Esme Bowers’ stories of women transforming communities in Africa, for instance. Also I was really excited to hear Dr. William Webb in our last general session teach about the Redemptive-Movement Hermeneutic in interpreting Scripture (get his book!). But also our trip to Harriet Tubman’s church moved me. I came back filled with faith and hope.

Comment by faith

July 24, 2008 @ 7:44 am

thanks Carol… i have been thinking and praying and wondering. how do we expose this injustice for what it really is? we are not physically in chains and we have laws in society to promote justice… but in the church there is so much injustice and we back it with scripture.

i’ve been thinking about the third way…. And what i could do just in small ways to expose this for what it is in our churches. i feel that simply dialogueing and shooting scriptures and biblical cases does nothing but reinforce our own position in our own eyes.

and i ask, what else? what can i do to make things different.

it is one thing when injustice is overt and visible, quite another when it is covert and silent and hard to pin down and cloaked in christianaity.

i know just doing it is redemptive… just being who i am in the church and using my gifts. but what more can be done–especially in the congregation where the folk or classic civil religion of male superiority is so prevelent?

i believe that God will not change it without our participation in some way. could we bat around creative ideas and thoughts that are more than theological banter? i watched iron jawed angels. they took actions to expose injustice.

Comment by faith

July 24, 2008 @ 8:57 am

i have a few more thoughts. since i began school and seminary it has become more difficult to be a woman in ministry.

1. the book biblical manhood and womanhood wrongly, i believe, set forth the notion that God designed and the bible defines femininity and masculinity and because of that design God assigns men and women to different roles.

2. the notion that church caters to the feminine and that pastors are somehow feminine and that in order to save men and grow churches, the church must have a masculine presence.

3. the notion has been asserted that for boys grow into men and for women to grow into women as opposed to homosexual, there must be clearly defined boundaries for femininity and masculinity. and for the church and home to present these roles to children. furthermore, the solution to homosexuality is for them, homosexuals, to take on such roles. so somehow women in the workplace and in authorative roles has been deemed only masculine.

4. the crisis in the American home has been blamed largely on the role changes in society and has been put at the feet of women who sought to contribute their gifts to society.

5. the women’s movement largely did not connect with Christian women who could not support abortion and homosexuality. so the alternative was the “godly” role of wife and mother in the home and the supportive roles in church.

There may be more… but to me these are ways the movements against women having authority and equality have gained ground. The nieave and unthoughtful buy into it because, they hurt due to wrecked home lives, or because they wish to follow the bible.

in my view, this is a hi-jacking of the scriptures. Paul says this in Romans 7:13,

“But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my doom? of course not! Sin (personified) used what was good to bring aout my condemnation. So we can see how terrible sin really is, It uses God’s good commandment for it’s own evil purposes.”

The bible, God’s good law, is good but it is being used by sin, to further the oppression and silencing of women. it was never intended for that. it has been hi-jacked. once again the church has been deceived and the people of God have been seduced into using the law for purposes of gaining power and electing some over others to higher status.

I just think we need to expose this. I know that biblical exegisis is good and it helped me find liberty. but it can only do so much… somehow there must be concrete actions that the church can take, especially in the congregation.

Because of the prvailing view, pastors will not take it on biblically, cognragants do not read such theological works as are needed. And there is much fear of women who know themselves and have their own voices.

my experience, i know but i think i speak for many women. I wish we could all be harriet tubmans who prayerfully seek creative ways to expose the evil that is and how God’s good Bible is being hi-jacked for the purposes of Sin (personified).

any thoughts????

Comment by jlp

July 24, 2008 @ 1:29 pm

What amazes is that those who blame women for the problems in the family forget that part of what is breaking up today’s family is the use of pornography by husbands, and some of those husbands are Christian men.

If the people who blame women for breaking up the family would focus on helping men break free from pornography, they would do a lot to help families stay together.

Comment by Carol Roberts

July 24, 2008 @ 4:55 pm

I know that the record is discouraging, but the Holy Spirit has encouraged me somehow. What did the early Americans do? They started schools. Maybe we need to do that, to teach about egalitarianism from kindergarten on up by living it with our students. This is not a new idea of mine: when I got to the conference, I had a certain African country on my mind because of a certain “job” there. As I stood in the lobby of the conference hotel, one woman was asking another, “Now tell us exactly what you do in ___” It was the country I am interested in, and they are starting a school for just such a purpose.

Certainly we need to start more CBE chapters, and after much prayer, look for opportunities to share our viewpoint. Today is my birthday, and I took the opportunity at my birthday luncheon to talk with some of my adult children about this.

I don’t think we’re going to eradicate this prejudice completely any more than we’re going to eradicate sin completely till Jesus comes again. Keep working, keep praying, keep looking for opportunities. But don’t be discouraged; when that happens, we’ve lost our joy and we’ve lost our will to keep on trying.

Comment by bjb

July 24, 2008 @ 6:17 pm

It seems to me that our biggest problem is that we aren’t concerned enough about spreading the gospel of Jesus, the great commission. Why do the Chinese, Indians, etc, use so many women? Because they passionately care about spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. They care so much that they do not care who brings the message - man, woman or child. Its been the same in most revivals in the past. Women are allowed to serve it seems when its real service, often involving suffering, rather than a thing of prestige or honor. But, as soon as there is prestige, in many cultures, the men (or pastors or church leaders) want that for themselves. Christians aren’t immune to those cultural influences. And, in the USA, a lot of that is the mini-culture of Christian churches.

Yes, some women are too self-centered. But, so are many men - not just the pornography written of above, but also a controlling cruelty, abuse with or without physical violence. Those in churches that teach obedience to heirarchy (where pastors and husbands are considered “protection” for women and parishioners - and then too often abuse those under their supposed care) tend to either not believe how bad it is among some of their people and/or leaders, or else they pretend it doesn’t exist. It brings great dishonor to Christ. It brings the opposite of being salt and light to a hurting, dying world - it makes Christians look hypocritical and cruel.

I’m no longer in a church that teaches any of those things. The downside of that is that I’m no longer in one that feeds my faith much either. Why cannot we have both? I’m sure churches that do both exist, but not around here. Its hard to keep on track with growth in faith without strong biblical teaching and preaching, without people with strong faith to encourage and challenge me, etc. Its a heavy burden to realize I need to be doing the teaching and encouraging when I lack organizational skills to set up anything to bring it about along with other difficulties in my life (physical and otherwise).

I’d really like to find some excellent discipleship materials, good teaching tools, and the like written from an egalitarian perspective. Things that aren’t terribly expensive (we’re in a small and shrinking church), and that aren’t boring. I’m now leading a small women’s Bible study. We’re doing a Beth Moore study because I don’t know of anything as good for discipleship and teaching - and it worked. One woman said she felt like she’d fallen in love with Jesus all over again. But I’d much rather have egalitarian materials if they are equally as good. Suggestions anybody?

Comment by jlp

July 25, 2008 @ 6:50 am

For Carol Roberts,

The only egal study literature I know of is at:

http://www.equalitydepot.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=190&Page=1

Look beyond page 1

Comment by jlp

July 25, 2008 @ 6:51 am

Opps, I made a mistake. My prior comment was meant for BJB, not Carol Roberts. BJB is looking for egalitarian study materials.

Comment by Frank

July 25, 2008 @ 11:27 am

Hello, again, my friends. I wish I could have gone to the Toronto Conference. And though there was some sad news reported, still it is evident that God is truly at work, accomplishing his redemptive purpose in the Church and in the world. And as one who cares about both the spread of the Gospel and supporting every man and woman the Lord Jesus gifts and calls to be his ambassadors to the world, whether it is by prayer, purse, or pen, I will do all that he enables me to do. So, in part,I’ve started a blog site on yahoo.com, called Emmaus House,and hope it will be a means to do this very thing. As you may remember from an earlier posting, though I was out of a job and working for work, I was working on a article regarding the Trinity and Evangelical Subordinationism. Well, I have written a 10 page article (though I’m not sure how much material you can put in a blog, since I’m a newbie when it comes to blogging) and if things work out, I may be working for the State of Colorado within the next couple of weeks. Anyway, does anyone have any suggestions about what I should do with this article? Thanks.

Comment by jlp

July 25, 2008 @ 1:50 pm

Put your article on your website, then give us a link to it so we can read it.

Comment by Maureen

July 28, 2008 @ 2:03 am

Interesting thoughts, Faith. Those points you outlined in your second post speak volumes and remind me of a course I did at uni last year on the history of women between 500-1750. It was an incredibly enlightening course, co-ordinated by a fabulous lecturer, and it highlighted a common theme that has prevailed throughout history and across cultures, which was termed by one author (Judith M. Bennett) as ‘the patriarchal equilibrium’.

In short, the patriarchal equilibrium can be described as the ability of patriarchal ideology, which subordinates women to men and underpins all social, cultural, economic and political institutions, to endure and counteract the challenges of female advancement, despite purported shifts and changes in the conditions and status of women throughout history.

I believe that all those points you have listed are exactly this patriarchal equilibrium at work, whether in the church or in society at large. You’re right in saying that it is gaining ground in its opposition to women having authority and gaining equality, and this is no coincidence.

Whilst many people in the world view patriarchy as an oppressive system that was devised by men in power, centuries ago, to dominate women, we as Christians know that it is, first and foremost, a principality and stronghold of the devil that came into being when sin entered the world. As such, I feel that spiritual warfare prayer is where we need to focus our attention in order to see this insidious oppression and limiting of women destroyed once and for all.

In the ‘not-so-distant’ past when I’ve heard about or read some of the ‘junk’ that is espoused by many churches, ministers and authors etc with regards to gender, the Bible and men and women’s roles blah, blah, I have been so incensed that I’ve almost wanted to go and just strangle them. I have certainly been guilty of sending off emails, written in the wrong spirit, to some of the complementarian ministries on the web. And, of course, there is the temptation for us all to get into heated theological debates with those who don’t agree with our egalitarian view - although I must admit I tend to stay away from such debates because I really don’t know a great deal about theology. However, I do know who I am in Christ and that is enough for me.

Many of the subjects I took at uni (I majored in history and sociology) also exposed me to the incredible bias against women, in practically all facets of life. Whilst I knew this existed in some part, I certainly had no idea about the extent of patriarchy, and the insidious way it has manifested itself all over the world, until I was educated at the tertiary level. For over 4 years, this education, in combination with all the church teaching that advocated women’s subordination to men, made me one angry little puppy, but thankfully my anger is subsiding now.

After many months alone in prayer with God, I finally began to understand, in my heart and not just in my head, that we are not fighting against flesh and blood here, but against principalities and evil rulers of the unseen world (a point that is clearly expressed in Ephesians 6). Hence, my appeal to spiritual warfare, rather than endless debate and angry rhetoric in the realm of the flesh.

I believe with all my heart that the spiritual stronghold named patriarchy, which has reigned for far too long now, is set to collapse, and our prayers are the key to bringing about that collapse. God moves on our heart’s cry more than anything else and I am certain, as I’m sure most of you are too, that it is His will and His desire to destroy any evil system that is limiting and enslaving any of His people – after all why did Jesus come if not to set all humanity free?

I feel we need to follow Jesus’ lead more often. He refused to waste His time debating doctrines with the Pharisees or answering their ‘trick’ questions so they could feel justified in their beliefs. No, He spoke and acted in ways that were completely contrary to the social norms, enshrined by men, and to the patriarchal-inspired theology espoused by these so-called church leaders. He preached only about the Kingdom of God and from what I’ve read in the gospels there is absolutely nothing about God’s design for biblical manhood and womanhood, masculine and feminine roles or women’s subordination to men in any of Jesus’ teachings about the Kingdom of God. In fact, Jesus went out of His way to demonstrate exactly the opposite - constantly calling people to move away from man’s narrowly defined religious orthodoxy, which promoted exclusion and created boundaries based upon gender, race, class and physical ability, to actively meeting the real needs of people.

Oh that the church today would take more heed of what Jesus said and did, rather than Paul or Peter or James or whoever. Godly men though they were, they were merely men with cultural biases, which have been too easily misinterpreted. Jesus was the Son of God and He was the only one, who flawlessly demonstrated the way of God’s Kingdom and had the authority to obliterate our sin. Yet, His teachings and example have taken a back seat to just about everyone else’s when it comes to formulating ideas about who can and can’t do what in the church and society, based upon their gender.

I could go on forever, but this is already probably the longest post in the history of ‘the blog’. I don’t post often and this is the reason why. It seems that I am incapable of writing a short blog :-)After all this ranting, basically I just want to say that whilst the promotion of egalitarian teaching, the setting up of more CBE chapters and important blogs like this one and yours, Frank, are all vital ways that can help to expose this injustice and bring about change, I believe that spiritual warfare aimed directly against this principality, which has continually worked to restrict half of God’s Kingdom people since sin entered the world, is the axe that will destroy the root of women’s subordination in the church once and for all.

So, if you’re not into warfare prayer already, please join me now, and let us, together, watch God tear down those spiritual forces that have worked against women’s full participation in His Kingdom – their time of authority and influence upon this earth is well and truly up!

“For though we walk (live) in the flesh, we are not carrying on our warfare according to the flesh and using mere human weapons. For the weapons of our warfare are not physical (weapons of flesh and blood) but they are mighty before God for the overthrow and destruction of strongholds”
(II Corinthians 10:3-4, Amplified Version)

Comment by faith

July 28, 2008 @ 6:59 am

maureen, interesting insights. I agree that prayer is a powerful and needed weapon to employ–the most necessary. I also agree that JEsus kingdom does not support the subordination of women. I will join you in prayer today.

Comment by Liz

July 29, 2008 @ 7:23 pm

Thanks for some really great comments and encouragements. So often we end up by saying ..”but what can I do?” and we can feel helpless and very small in the scheme of things. The hierarchical movement is very strong and widespread and we can be intimidated by it that’s for sure. But God! As Maureen said, prayer is huge because it really is an enlightenment issue. We should do all we can to spread the word about true equality in Christ just as we spread the good news of salvation but it is God who speaks to people’s hearts and convinces them that these things are true.

Faith, Equality Depot, the online bookstore for CBE has many great books available with suggestions of ‘what to do’ and Pat Gundry’s books are very practical. She is an amazing and prolific writer who began writing 30+ years ago and is still passionate about expecting change. So, Faith I would encourage you to get hold of “Woman be Free” or “Neither Slave nor Free” which have some good ideas for action. Pat also encourages us to be available to God for his use and not be disheartened by the seemingly small things we do or say - God will use us.

Carol - what a timely reminder about the schools. We have probably all heard that the first 5 years of a child’s life is when things are laid down which will stay with that child forever. So, teaching children in any arena is so valuable. Even if material is not specifically egalitarian, we can include our own emphasis in the stories. There is a good book available from CBE bookshop which is bible stories to be read to children and it’s all about the women who did great things for God.

BJB - for egalitarian materials to study equality, Equality Depot has a study book entitled “Male and Female in Christ” by Carrie Miles and others. We have used this and found it excellent. Also there is a 12 weeks study on Equality by the Mickelsens which is great too.

For study material on general bible study we have used the Lifeguide study books which are written by different authors and we haven’t come across one yet which is hierarchical. You can check through before you buy each topic anyway. The Willow Creek organisation have study books also which would be from an egalitarian perspective. Neither of these books are expensive and the leaders’ guide with answers is in the back of the Lifeguide ones (not sure about the Willow Creek ones)

Frank..could you please give us the link for your blogsite.

Comment by Liz

July 29, 2008 @ 7:25 pm

Another good study guide is “Gender or Giftedness” which is ideal for personal, group or church studies. It was prepared for the Commission on Women’s Concerns of the World Evangelical Fellowship. CBE may have copies left of this excellent resource which was available for very little cost.

Comment by faith

July 29, 2008 @ 9:22 pm

BJB, re: discipleship tools. Greg Ogden wrote an awesome discipleship guide called Discipleship Essentials. It is an excellent overview of christian beliefs, salvation by faith, grace, the Trinity, image of God, spiritual giftedness etc. It is neither egalitarian nor complimentarian. But the teaching on the Trinity is accurate as well as image of God. I’ve used it and know of a few incidents when good biblical theology is taught, women are transformed and empowered–just by discipleship. (especially powerful is the teaching on image of God)

It’s classic theology without the agenda.

Comment by Frank

August 4, 2008 @ 12:05 pm

Just read Maureen’s posting and agree that we are battling with the powers of darkness when dealing with “the hierarchical movement.” And so we need to understand how to engage in spiritual warfare. I believe it is the April or May issue of Pray! magazine that addresses this issue and which many would find helpful. I believe we also need to pray for a greater fullness of the Spirit’s presence and power, not only in our lives, but also in our teaching and preaching, of which I am sure everyone here agrees. But sometimes for some of us, this means that like Micah, we have to be willing to engage in prophetic ministry, where by we are enabled by the Spirit to declare to Israel its sin and trangression and call it back to practice the justice and righteousness consistent with the Gospel (cf. Micah 5:5-12). And in my first 3 part blog, “The Trinity and Evangelical Neo-Arianism,” I believe I have spoken prophetically, though I know Israel often stones God’s prophets. But whatever else may come, I know I’m being true to God and his Word, discharging my duty as his servant.

Comment by Liz

August 5, 2008 @ 9:33 am

Hi Frank - please remind us again of the address for your blog. Sounds like a ‘must read’

Comment by jlp

August 5, 2008 @ 4:38 pm

Yes, Frank, please give us the address.

Comment by leigh

August 5, 2008 @ 7:22 pm

If you scroll up to post 87164, which Frank wrote, his name links to his blog.

Comment by Liz

August 5, 2008 @ 9:34 pm

How very clever! Thanks Leigh and Frank

Comment by Frank

August 18, 2008 @ 11:51 am

Hello, my friends. I’m still busy job hunting; a couple of jobs I thought were avaiable fell through, and so I’m beating the bushes again. Anyway, it may be a while before I can get back into the conversations going on at The Scroll. And if you tried finding my yahoo website, and couldn’t, it may be because I only gave a partial address. The full address is http://www.360.yahoo.com/fgeis. Hopefully, I’ll be working within the next four weeks, and be able to converse again. Until then, God keep and bless you all. Amen.

Comment by jlp

August 18, 2008 @ 6:51 pm

Thanks Frank!

Comment by Tulip

August 22, 2008 @ 2:16 am

Hi
Yet again my spirit was lifted after logging on and reading the latest blogs. I am a what one might call a “theology nerd” of a house wife. I love it, love discussing it, talking and reading. But it is a lonely nerd’s life. Why are there so few Christians that really like to ponder Scripture instead of just believing everything they hear, (just to forget about it because it wasn’t relevant to their life)? Being a women doesn’t help either. Domestic duties and theology seems to turn me into an oddball in the eyes of both the church and the world. Anyway, that was a brief personal introduction.

What I would like to ask you friends, concerns the role women have played in times of revival.(Any good books around?) History is just as biased as some Bible translations. I need something to back up my egal. opinions when it comes to the move of the Spirit throughout history.

Also I would like to hear your opinion regarding the ministry of Kathryn Kuhlman. She is supposed to have “excused” her ministry because God couldn’t find a man that was willing to do it so he had to call a woman instead. Apparently God made an exception with her.

Also I would love to hear some comments about what my pastor said when he defended the male headship theory. Apparently, according to him, men lead because….”just look at Sara. She told Abraham to go to Hagar and now we have the trouble in the Middle East.”

A holy kiss to all of you.

Comment by Liz

August 23, 2008 @ 5:03 am

Hi Tulip - great to read that you love theology. Maybe you will inspire other women - just don’t apologise for your interest even though others may not share your passion.

CBE bookshop (Equality Depot) can be reached on the CBE website (www.cbeinternational.org) has some books on women preachers in times of revival. We have one here which we bought from CBE. It’s title is “Liberating Women for the Gospel - author Rosie Nixson - has some very compelling stories of God using women in spite of the prevailing which frowned on such a thing.

Don’t know much about Kathryn Kuhlmann but I’m sure other readers can help you on this one.

What comment can I make about your pastor’s words about Sarah? It is one of the things which really annoys me about some who hold to the headship idea.
They love to make jokes about the relationship between husbands and wives, men & Women and it’s always derogatory towards the woman. Abraham could have ignored what Sara suggested - he was hardly a bystander!

Comment by jlp

August 23, 2008 @ 8:44 am

Tulip,

Why don’t you read the “God and Sarah” blog.

http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/07/god-and-sarah/

Comment by faith

August 26, 2008 @ 8:54 am

Tulip, wow, what your pastor said was very reductionist. There is so much more going on in the story. (i long for the people of God to know the story and see the story) Some pastors and authors see the entire world through the headship filter and find it in every situation even when it is not the point of the story. Funny, even the fall and salvation is interpreted through the headship filter in some cases. When one reads or hears their stuff, one would think restoring headship is the primary goal of salvation. you can see the filters, assumptions.

I too was a homemaker theology student. It finally led me to bible college, then seminary. I also felt very odd and unusual. I can relate to what you are experiencing among people who do not expect you to be a good thinker.

The history i studied in my denomination told about a man named Fredrick Franson. He was one of the founders of the Evangelical Free Church. He wrote a paper entitled, Prophesying Daughters to show the counsel of God’s word and send out women to preach the gospel.

I have also been studying my family’s history from Norway and Denmark. There was a Norwegian-Danish Evangelical Pietist movement in the Scandinavian countries in the mid-1800’s. My relatives followed a person named Hans Haugen… who taught that men and women were equal and called in Christian mission. He had some association with the Quakers as well as the pietists. They were called the Haugeneons and some of them settled in Northwestern Minnesota.

Comment by Watcher

August 27, 2008 @ 6:17 am

Another thing about Abraham and Sarah is that TWICE Abraham told Sarah to say that she was his sister. And TWICE God had to swoop in with a dream or illness to save Abraham and Sarah from that stupid mistake to keep other men from having relations with Sarah. It was a ghastly mistake that would have shut down the whole father of our faith bit if God had not intervened.

If your pastor thinks the Hagar thing proves male headship then I have twice as much reason to believe that the “Sarah is my sister” thing proves male stupidity (Huge apologies to all my beloved bretheren on this site who don’t hold to the same view as Tulip’s pastor. I’m just making the point that his point is completely invalid and is in no way proof of male headship.) If that’s how sweeping he wants to make his conclusions, just give me time, I can come up with some really “out there” conclusions by pulling out whatever scripture I feel like messing with.

As far as Kuhlman is concerned, she was under a great deal of pressure because she was a woman. She may have actually believed what she said to make peace with herself and the men around her. But I don’t believe it for a minute any more than I believe that God chose Deborah because there was no man available. This is just extra interpretation stuff thrown in because of people who cannot handle women being in leadership.

Comment by Watcher

August 27, 2008 @ 6:20 am

Faith, do you have a link to any info on Franson. Having some Danish in my background made me perk up.

Comment by faith

August 27, 2008 @ 7:44 am

Franson is the swede who was one of the e-free founders. Franson was one of the leaders of Swedish pietism in the United States. His wife went out and preached the gospel in the US and Sweden. It was a movement originating in Sweden but came with the Swedish settlers.

The Danish-norwegian fellow is Hans Hauge. I have a link.

http://www.haugeinstitute.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=4

When we discovered this vain in our family, i felt something of a kinship. These were my people, i am not wierd. God has been at work for women for many years.

Comment by faith

August 27, 2008 @ 7:48 am

Here is a quote from the above link:

“Hauge also preached equality between men and women. He encouraged men to learn to do housework and women to work on the farms. This was revolutionary at that time, and not everybody took it seriously. Hauge had
no objection to placing women in leadership positions, whether it was in business or as preachers or…. in the Societies of Friends. The most important
question for him was placing the right person in the right place. He also placed great emphasis on the equality of the sexes in his teaching, but after his death this idea eventually faded out.”

Comment by faith

August 27, 2008 @ 8:24 am

FYI Hans Nielsen Hauge’s effect on Norway as a nation

http://home.no.net/pgjendem/artikler/pg_Hauge_H_N.htm

Comment by Watcher

August 27, 2008 @ 9:12 am

Faith,
I will be checking those links when I have time.
Thank you so much for them and the clarification.

Tulip, Liz, and Trevor.
Just to clarify my earlier post.
The love story of Abraham and Sarah is beautiful.
It is not proof of patriarchy. But they most certainly lived in a patriarchal society. One where if a man’s wife produces not heir, the man could take another wife. Or if not he could descretely get rid of her and the other patriachs living in the area would have looked the other way.

But Abraham was not of this sort. He loved Sarah to his own hurt. To the point that he was resigned to have no heir from his own loins. This is no ordinary patriarch. This was a man that God could call a friend. And I believed Sarah was both worthy of this devotion and thrived in it. No wonder she was willing to call herself Abraham’s sister to save his life (I’ve heard that she actually was his half-sister. There were no laws against this back then.)
She was also willing to humble herself, admit her own fault of not being able to bear Abraham a child and gave Hagar to him in order to promote him.

These actions… These mistakes… They are not proof of male headship. They are proof that Abraham and Sarah were human who were full of love for each other and God but made mistakes. Together they stumbled about without a Bible and without a Church Home to learn what it means to be people of faith. They were pioneers. And God blessed them.

I guess I do get a little agitated with men trying to make scripture say the things it does not say. People must be more careful about assuming scripture proves something it doesn’t.

Comment by Pam

August 30, 2008 @ 1:43 pm

I am interested in the question about women in revival movements. Some comments have been made above about such history. As a Methodist, I know that John Wesley had high regard for women preachers even if he couldn’t get to the place of supporting ordination. B.T. Roberts, founder of the Free Methodists, mid-1800s in USA, was very pro-women in ministry.
However, the main thing I want to share is two books!!
The Women Around Jesus is a book by Elisabeth Moltmann-Wendel. She uses artwork to demonstrate the favorable portrayals of women in paintings during “movements” of Christianity and the negative portrayals during times of institutionalism. Fascinating to see Mary Magdalene as the apostle up in a very high pulpit during one era and then as the brothel inhabitant with the low cut bodice in another!!
A second great book tracing the ups and downs of women is called In the Spirit We’re Equal by Dr. Susan Hyatt.
I know there are many more wonderful resources availalbe through Equality Depot, but these are two that I have enjoyed discussing women and revival.