The CBE Scroll

Comment by PamBG

December 7, 2008 @ 3:53 am

I read a number of ‘complementarian’ blogs and in a number of them, egalitarian Christian women are often portrayed as strident, selfish women who want to discredit men at every opportunity and push them out of positions of responsibility. In fairness, however, not all ‘complementarians’ take this view; there are those who simply say ‘the bible says women are to be quiet in church and that’s that’.

It seems to me that the only effective way of diffusing the argument about strident, selfish women is to BE something different. In a variation on the well-known saying by St. Francis: Preach true equality and, if necessary, use words.

Comment by jlp

December 7, 2008 @ 9:17 pm

When I read such things on the web as Liz mentions, and I do – I always think that these people are reacting out of fear. For some reason they are scared of us. I am not sure why. Perhaps understanding their fear of egalitarianism will give us more insight into how to dialogue with them on the subject.

Comment by PS

December 8, 2008 @ 8:49 am

There’s a parallel here to much of the political advertising: One group seems intent on pointing out what they see as fearful about the other side instead of convincing by stating what is better about their side.

While I can’t claim to have gone to every type of Christian blog, those I’ve gone to seem to fit this same pattern, even within my own tradition. Those that are more “conservative” (whatever that means) seem to want to point out the negatives in the groups on the other end of the spectrum. Those that are supposedly more liberal seem to dwell more in the joy given to them by the Grace of God.

Comment by Larry S

December 8, 2008 @ 9:37 am

I find it interesting that the author of the article was a women who appears to be doing some authoratative teaching.

Perhaps both sides of the gender debate within evangelical circles are guilty of reading our views into the story rather than noting an example of a women prophetess operating within her patriarchical culture.

Comment by LMcC

December 8, 2008 @ 10:36 am

I hate to say it, the lies sexual hierarchs spread about Biblical equality or any form of sexual equality are extremely effective. I know, because I am an ex-believer in hierarchy who was dissuaded from believing in *any* form of Christian equality.

I was originally turned off of any form of women’s equality/feminism because my church taught that feminists hated men, supported abortion, didn’t believe in God, etc. Imagine my surprise when I met secular feminists who were happily married, who were pro-life, and who even *gasp* believed in God!

Unfortunately, since I was not exposed to Biblical equality until years later, I had to live with a real conflict between serving God and standing against the evils done against women in churches. If standing up for a woman abused by her “Christian” husband was wrong, for example, that was one time I couldn’t afford to be right. Choosing between God and the right thing is something nobody should ever have to believe they are doing. Fortunately, Biblical equality showed up and that conflict went away.

There are a lot of Christian women who are still caught in the middle. They’ve found out that much of what is said about secular feminism is not completely true, they may struggle with the apparent truth that secular Western society cares more for women than the church does, but they don’t know that Biblical equality exists and that they don’t have to live with the conflict. Those of us in more conservative circles have more work to do and more difficulties to face when getting out the truth, but it’s necessary. I don’t want any more women to feel that conflict when churches ignore or even condone mistreatment of women.

Comment by Francine

December 9, 2008 @ 9:30 am

Deborah is my favorite woman in the Old Testament. It was her and many of the other women in the Bible that taught me what true equality was. I’ve read so many websites and articles that will actually put this great woman of God down. Deborah and Barak is a wonderful example of team work between men and women. Barak was needed to muster up the 10,000 men God wanted to be in the battle, since a large amount of soldiers were need to draw the huge army of the enemy out. Deborah was needed to tell them when it was God’s timing to go into battle. There are some that will say God will use a woman if there is no man willing to do the job. These people forget about Moses’ calling to return to Eygpt to lead the people out and what about Gideon, he really did not want to be a warrior but did anyways. There are more men in the Bible that God used but he had to convince them. I read one webrite article that Deborah backslid because she isn’t mentioned in Hebrews 11′s hall of faith. There are a lot of men of faith that are not mentioned either, does that mean they also backslid. CBMW states that Deborah was not as great a prophet as Isaiah or Jeremiah because she didn’t wander around teaching God’s word. Isaiah and Jeremiah were not judges along with being a prophet. Niether did they become warriors. God gave them a job to do and they did their job well. God gave Deborah a job to do and she did hers well.
I wonder if the teachers of today are imitating the rabbis in Christ’s day. The ancient rabbis would not let the women learn the scriptures. I often wondered why that was so. Maybe it was because if women in those days read about the women in the Scripture there would be a revolt and women would rise up to do as God wanted them to do alongside the men and the men would lose their housekeepers. Today they can’t stop the women from reading the Bible but they can distort the truth about the mighty women in the Bible. Could it be for the same reason?

Comment by Sarah

December 9, 2008 @ 2:59 pm

I have seen a lot of this as well. One of the worst examples of misrepresentation I’ve ever witnessed occured in the early ’90s and involved a very popular and influential Christian radio broadcast. The show was about “christian feminism” and I remember the female guest expounding on its dangers, giving a very damaging quote from an egalitarian author she claimed represented the egalitarian position. I had just recently become interested in the issue, and was one of what was probably a very small number of the very large audience listening who actually had the book quoted. The quote is in the book; however, it is clearly given as an example of secular feminist error, which the egalitarian author carefully quotes in context, properly attributes to its source, and then refutes at some length. The radio teacher had either not bothered to read the book at all, or had deliberately misrepresented the author. Either way, it was a terrible breach of Christian standards of scholarship and love.

Comment by Sarah

December 9, 2008 @ 3:35 pm

I think that many comps have a hard time with the concept that a woman can be egalitarian without being rebellious or self-serving. After all, if godliness is exemplified by submission to God and his Word, then the opposite must be in force when someone (particularly a woman) challenges what to them is an obvious biblical idea. It can be very difficult for them to recognize an egal.’s commitment to Scripture and to submission (which biblical egal.s honor more rather than less, as they apply it to all Christians), and even harder to examine their own interpretation of the Bible. Thus they sincerely believe they are slaying a dragon when they are really attacking their brothers and sisters in Christ. We egal.s have to be careful not to fall into the same trap. It is possible for a comp. (even the “big guns” whose public crusades cause so much division) to be motivated by a desire to serve God rather than to oppress, and imputing sinful motives to them no more serves God than when they do it to us.

Comment by Liz

December 9, 2008 @ 3:50 pm

That’s so right Sarah and that is what makes the whole subject difficult to introduce in conversation with sincere Christian friends. I often use the term of ‘treading on their conscience’ because to refute something so dear to a person’s heart is tantamount (in that person’s mind) to tampering with scripture.

To comment on your first point, I would say that this is the most distressing thing for an egalitarian (men too) – to have your Christian family assuming your motives and seeing your ‘spirituality’ as somehow less in touch with what God is saying or doing in the world. More than whether or not I am ‘allowed’ to do certain things within the church community (which certainly causes much pain) it is the judging of my relationship with God which brings a deeper sadness.

Comment by Sarah

December 9, 2008 @ 7:22 pm

Liz, I have spent most of my Christian life in comp. circles. I came to egal. conclusions a couple of years into my Christian life as a student at a firmly comp. Bible college. I did so for the same reason that I chose orthodox Biblical Christianity over the claims of the cults that swarmed out of the woodwork after I accepted Christ: after much prayer and study, I came to the conclusion that the Bible, accurately interpreted, teaches gender equity in church and home. This hasn’t been “culturally conditioned;” the culture I belong to is that of evangelical Christianity, and this position is of no benefit to me in those circles. Ironically and sadly, the same commitment to obedience to God’s word as ultimate authority central to evangelical Christian life constrains me to follow Him in this area despite alienation and misunderstanding from many of His people. It hurts terribly to have Christians, those to whom I am bonded by the blood of Christ, accuse and reject me because I must follow God in this area.

Comment by Sarah

December 9, 2008 @ 7:58 pm

One of the most disturbing aspects of the situation for me is the easy dismissal of other believers’ viewpoints and blithe dissemination of false judgements and misrepresentations evident in this debate. What a testimony to those outside of the fold! What a desecration of the body of Christ! I know I get frustrated with what I see as un-biblical and unnecessary church practices, and I get angry at sanctified sin and injustice, but I have to be very careful not to make things worse by forgetting how Jesus calls me to behave – with love, thoughtfulness, integrity, and humility, in complete dependence on his grace.

Comment by Liz

December 9, 2008 @ 8:15 pm

Thanks for telling us more of your struggles Sarah – many of us can pray along with you for eyes to be opened and hearts softened. We continue to trust that over time, people will realise that we are ‘orthodox’ and true Christ-followers in all aspects.

Comment by Sarah

December 10, 2008 @ 3:06 am

thanks and amen, Liz. I haven’t had to deal with nearly the trouble others have. Many thanks to those exhibiting grace under fire on the front lines, and to those on both sides of the debate who faithfully strive to exhibit Christ’s character as we navigate troubled waters together. Blessings!

Comment by faith

December 11, 2008 @ 11:26 am

yes and amen Sarah, I’ve been a little irritable about the way the system is and it has not achieved much except an enormous loss of energy. When the male stuff surfaces and it usually does, God’s word to me is always, “I will take care of it.” And it is not that I am passive but that I act with prayer and serious thought. Once it took me six weeks to talk with someone who was badgering me and challenging my call and the church’s decision to hire me. But the time was needed for me to get past my “reactive” posture and move to a gentle active responsive posture. I have been on a long learning curve on this. I think, I’m getting it now. It helps to have a community of women who have walked this road. I wish I would have had that.

Comment by Kathryn

December 19, 2008 @ 4:16 pm

Faith, every time I encounter someone with an opposing view on biblical equality, I get much the same word from the Lord that you do. It’s comforting because that “learning curve” you spoke of isn’t easy, especially when you consider the fact that so many of our laws have been based on the headship/submission , and a great many women have fallen through the of those laws. Talk about the power of words. I’m talking about right here in America. It has been said that women tend to overestimate their legal rights. That is what has given the patriarchs a foundation of support among patriarchalist women. I know that most patriarchs are genuinely horrified at against women. They just don’t get the connection between injustice and bad theology. And, as we all know, injustice against women is not limited to , any more than is limited to Jim Crow segregation.

Comment by Sarah

December 23, 2008 @ 12:01 pm

Faith – thanks for the reminder that waiting on God isn’t a passive activity. This connects to a couple of areas in my life right now. It’s very encouraging to know that there’s no such thing as “just” waiting, or praying, or trusting for a child of God. Those times we sometimes see as the least productive have a funny way of turning out to be the times He is doing great things. Blessings :-)