The CBE Scroll

Blog voices from Christians for Biblical Equality

ESS – A New Doctrine

Filed under: Gender Equality
Written by: on Sunday, February 8, 2009

This post written by Curtis Freeman is reproduced with the kind permission of Wade Burleson from his blogsite, a valuable resource for egalitarians. http://kerussocharis.blogspot.com/

Getting a Trinitarian conversation going among Baptists is more important than one might first expect given that most Baptists these days are, and for some time have been, functionally Unitarians. For example, in The Baptist Hymnal (1991) out of 666 hymns only 20 are Trinitarian (a ratio of 1:33), but 268 of these 666 hymns are Christological (a ratio of 1:2.5). Baptist worship in the South clearly tilts toward Unitarianism of the Second Person (i.e., a faith in Jesus alone to the near exclusion of the Father and the Spirit), just as on occasions in the past it has leaned in the direction of Unitarianism of the First Person (i.e. a faith in the Father alone with a subordinate role for the Son and the Spirit). To put the matter pointedly, most Baptists are Unitarians that simply have not yet gotten around to denying the Trinity. Non-Trinitarian faith is not necessarily anti-Trinitarian, yet it is reason for concern nonetheless.

All this may seem counter intuitive, but it’s true. I often tell incoming students at Duke that they will hear the Trinity invoked more in the first week than in their entire life in Baptist churches. They later surprisingly tell me that they thought I was exaggerating at first, but after a week they came to see that I may have underplayed the way in which our community draws from the life of the Trinity in prayer, worship, study, and living. It has thus become one of my life goals to help the wider Baptist family retrieve a faith and practice grounded in the life of the Triune God in whom we live, and move, and have our very being. To the end that your conversation (on Wade Burleson’s blogsite) has served to raise that awareness I am grateful.

However, like you, I am concerned about embracing a Trinitarian doctrine that is not well grounded or tested. For several years now this new doctrine of the eternal subordination of the Son (ESS) has been surfacing among Baptists and other evangelicals. As I’ve read some of the replies on your blog and other blogs criticizing you, I’ve encountered the very odd claim that ESS is the historic doctrine of orthodoxy. A simple fact check of the history of the doctrine of the Trinity will reveal that ESS is not a historic doctrine at all, but a very new one. Nor is it part of the received wisdom of the Christian tradition, but in fact is a matter of contemporary speculation. Doctrines do change, and sometimes innovations are received as wisdom. But ESS has yet to be tested and proved by any but a very small and unrepresentative group. The doctrine of the Trinity doesn’t belong to Baptists or Evangelicals. It is the faith shared by all Christians. And until ESS has been tested by the whole Church, it seems prudent to wait.

One of the major concerns about ESS is the supposed distinction between functional and ontological subordination. While it is true that the incarnate Son in his earthly life was submissive to the Father, the suggestion that this subordination extends to his eternal exalted state is worrisome. As Kevin Giles has argued, very persuasively I think, this appears to be a new iteration of Arianism. To be fair to the proponents of ESS, they are not Arians in one important respect: they believe in the Son’s eternal generation (the aspect or Origen’s thought appropriated in the Creed of the Council of Nicaea, “eternally begotten of the Father”), but they also believe in his eternal subordination (the aspect of Origen’s thought not appropriated by the Nicene defenders of homoousios). I suppose that makes them only semi-Arians. [Thanks to my friend and colleague Steve Harmon for this qualification.] The burden of proof, however, is on those proposing this new doctrine of ESS to show that it is not a new form of an old heresy. I’ve yet to be convinced. Until this is worked out it seems wise to wait until this new doctrine of ESS has been thoroughly examined and tested.

Beyond the question of the orthodoxy of ESS, which is still very much in question, I am suspicious of the not so subtle political agenda of ESS which is attracted to Trinitarian theology, not as an account of the life in which we live and move and have our being, but as an argument that underwrites complementarian views. I am just as suspicious of those who use Trinitarian doctrine to support the complementarian social agenda as those who engage in social Trinitarian speculations to underwrite feminist convictions. Miroslav Volf, one of our best Free Church theologians on the Trinity, has called for caution in the use of such speculative Trinitarian theology which can easily be co-opted by ideologies of the right and the left. His cautionary word seems wise regarding ESS. I am suspicious that the real energy behind this new ESS doctrine is really a thinly veiled attempt to elevate complementarianism to de fide orthodoxy, so that complementarian gender relations are set forth as the only acceptable model for Christians and that egalitarianism is heresy equivalent to denying the Trinity. This utilitarian use of Trinitarian doctrine is (in my opinion) based on dubious scholarship and bad theology.

I share the goal of helping our wider Baptist family retrieve the wisdom of the vast storehouse of orthodoxy. As bad as functional Unitarianism is, however, the possible embrace of a semi-Arianism masquerading as orthodoxy used for political ends may be even worse.

Yours in a common faith,

Curtis

Curtis W. Freeman
Research Professor of Theology
Director of the Baptist House of Studies
Duke Divinity School
Box 90966
Durham, NC 27708-0966

39 Comments »

Comment by Anca

February 9, 2009 @ 7:22 am

I am confused over the logic on this whole issue.
If Jesus and the Father are one, than wouldn’t Christ’s submission to the Father be the same as submission to Himself or the other way around? Perhaps one man submitting to another man can be humbling to his ego, but submitting to yourself is not. So why then can God not also submit to Jesus?

My second question is why do they compare Jesus to a woman in function in regards to the Father? What are they trying to get at? They say God and Jesus are masculine and not feminine. They even call it goddess worship if you mention the possibility of the Godhead having both male and female attributes. So if they already established that Jesus can be only male than why on earth are they giving him a female subordinate role in relation to the Father? That is like one man being subordinate to another man. The whole reason women must be subject to men according to the complementarians is because they are of a different gender. Which makes them different in every respect. They are only as valuable as men are in the eyes of God, but because of their very “being” they must be subject to men. God and Jesus are not only literally one being in two persons but also (according to comps.) the same gender. So if they prescribe a subordinate role to Christ, that is like one man being subordinate to another man. If that is true than I don’t see how it’s relevant to the women issue. And does this mean that from now on a man can now tell another man to be subject to him because he is equal in being but different in role?

Lets say for examples sake that Christ is eternally subordinate to God. Than I would say the reason is because of His sonship and because fathers have authority over their sons. At least until they become adults anyway. Even then, for a father to say to his adult son that he must be eternally subject to him on account of him being his son is ridiculous. We should not see Christ’s sonship in relation to the Father as subordinate. Because just like a 70 year old man can still be the father of a 45 year old son that does not mean that that father has authority over his son, anymore than that son would be under his fathers authority at that age. It is just a matter of relation between the two. And no one can say Jesus is subordinate to the Father because the Father is God and should be obeyed by everyone, because Jesus is also God.

I think Jesus submitted to the Father because He agreed with the Father before He came on earth to carry out the salvation of all people. He and the Father had the same will to begin with. I have a very hard time imagining that God required Jesus to suffer against His will. I don’t think that God did not ask Christ for permission to send Him on earth and have His body broken to pay for our sins. I think all three of Them made a mutual consent to come. I don’t see Jesus saying,” Father if at all possible take this cup away from me” as a sign of Him having a different will than the Father, yet choosing to submit anyway. Wanting to know if their was an easier way to save mankind is not the same as not wanting to save them at all. Choosing to submit to another on an issue or for a season does not make someone subordinate in role. It was more than a matter of obedience it was a matter of will.

I fail to see on what account the Son is eternally subject to the Father? Is it because he is female? Is it because he is a son? Is it because God is God and Jesus is not? Or is it because if you deffer to someones will on an issue you automatically become destined for all of eternity to obey them? Did it ever occur to the proponents of the ESS that maybe Jesus agreed with the Father before hand and then came in the flesh, gave up his authority and rights as God, and took on the form of a servant in order to model for us how we are submit to God and serve each other? That maybe when you love someone you submit to their will in order to please them, not necessarily because they are in authority over you?

Comment by joanne

February 9, 2009 @ 8:26 am

Anca, Patriarchy is not just women being subordinate to men but some men subordinate to other men and women always subordinate to men. It IS a heirarchy of status (clocked with the word authority) even though they would not say that. However, men may change in their positions of authority based on education, age, skill, position, money etc. Women are always subordinate.

I agree… soooo illogical.

Comment by Frank

February 9, 2009 @ 1:01 pm

I want to thank you, Dr. Curtis, for your critical insights and comments on how complementarians have altered the orthodox view of the Trinity to promote their own theological/social agenda and recast those truly holding the view of the Nicene Creed as being heretical. Indeed, it was these very concerns that moved me to write a twelve page tractate,”The Trinity and Evangelical Neo-Arianism,” which has formed the basis of my contributions to the Scroll discussions on the Trinity and ESS. And at this time, I don’t have much more to add to that conversation, since I’m working on some other projects.

However, for those who want to read some helpful materials that are biblically and theologically sound, I would suggest the following:

1. James White’s THE FORGOTTEN TRINITY: RECOVERING THE HEART OF CHRISTIAN BELIEF. White is both a Baptist theologian and apologist, whose book not only exegetes key biblical texts, but gives very readable critiques of Arian and Semi-Arian views of the Trinity.

2. Millard Erickson’s GOD IN THREE PERSONS: A CONTEMPORARY INTERPRETATION OF THE TRINITY. Erickson is also a Baptist theologian who, in this book, surveys the historical development of the doctrine of the Trinity; some of the current challenges to the historic and orthodox view of the Trinity; and his own biblical and theological presentation of the “communal view,” which he believes truly underlies the Nicene formulation of the doctrine. It is a bit more academic than White, but is well worth the effort of reading and reflecting on.

3. Cheryl Schatz is an Evangelical apologist, who with others, has combatted cultic perversions of the Trinity, such as those taught by the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormons. Besides a two disc DVD, “The Trinity,” she also has a website, Women In Ministry, where an excellent, critical study of the Trinity and ESS can be found.

So these are some resources I would recommend for those who wish to study this crucial issue in more depth.

Comment by historyloveralways

February 9, 2009 @ 1:12 pm

Anca,

I have asked myself every question you have asked about ESS. None of it makes sense. I especially agree with you that the Son decided ahead of time to go to earth to suffer and die for us. He wasn’t made to do it by the Father. That would cheapen the sacrifice Jesus made for us if he only did it because the Father made him do it.

Comment by Liz

February 9, 2009 @ 4:34 pm

What a wonderful thought that Jesus’ sacrifice would be cheapened if Jesus had not decided for himself. I have never heard it put like that before but it is so true!

My early childhood until 11 years was in the JW movement as my believing parents were convinced at that time that the organisation was being true to the bible. I was there long enough to recognise that this whole ESS doctrine is perilously close to that of the JWs, Christadelphians and other similar groups.
I’m amazed that orthodox Christians are going down this path.
That is why it seems as though they are influenced largely by the desire to prove the position of women in God’s order.

Comment by cello

February 10, 2009 @ 8:49 am

You guys know way more about the subject than I do but I wouldn’t be so quick to say the ESS model is primarily about advancing complementarianism . It seems to me more about a worldly and cultural need for social order and women just lose out in this particular social view. There seems to be a contingent of people who needs the world and eternity to operate like a football team or military squadron for their own personal comfort. A strict hierarchy of authority is easier to understand and to practice than the more abstract concept of Trinitarianism or the more loving concept of egalitarianism.

Comment by cello

February 10, 2009 @ 8:54 am

Oh, and IMHO, I can not think of a single more arrogant thing than to assume how the Son relates to the Father or the Father relates to the Son for all eternity. Seriously. It astounds me that someone is sitting around, and in practical terms, telling God what He thinks about Himself.

Comment by Frank

February 10, 2009 @ 1:33 pm

I just noticed that in my last comment (88650), my eyes played a trick on me, and I confused Dr. Freeman’s first name for his last name; so I wish to rectify that error on my part.

Nevertheless, much of what he says about Baptists being “functional unitarians” could be applied to other evangelical groups as well. And I think we can reflect on our own worship experience and recognize how widespread a problem this is. However, there is a book, THE WORSHIP OF GOD (by Robert Webber as I recall), that takes a chapter or two to address this very problem. It would behoove any worship leader to read it and learn how to make their church’s worship service more biblical and more Trinitarian in focus.

Comment by Lin

February 10, 2009 @ 5:19 pm

“He wasn’t made to do it by the Father. That would cheapen the sacrifice Jesus made for us if he only did it because the Father made him do it.”

Exactly. I have tried over and over to explain this to those who are buying into this doctrine. It can only do ONE thing: Lessen Jesus Christ.

And WHO would want to do that? We all know the answer to that.

Comment by Larry S

February 10, 2009 @ 7:48 pm

quoting from article:
‘The doctrine of the Trinity doesn’t belong to Baptists or Evangelicals. It is the faith shared by all Christians. And until ESS has been tested by the whole Church, it seems prudent to wait.’

this truly is wise counsel. the entire Church believes in the Trinity. all too often, we evangelicals think we need to do everything ourselves.

Comment by Frank

February 12, 2009 @ 8:19 pm

As I said in my previous comment (88650), there is much in Dr. Freeman’s article that provides useful, critical insight into the fallacies of ESS. But as I reflected on his statement the Doctrine of the Trinity is not just a Baptist or Evangelical teaching, but the teaching of all orthodox Christian churches who hold to the Nicene Creed, I find I must challenge the idea that we need to wait and test the viability or acceptability of ESS today.

ESS is a doctrine that denies the full equality of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in divine majesty, knowledge, power, and authority. Though some talk about both the equality of being and functional subjection of the Persons being reasonable–as Kevin Giles has shown–if the inferior function of the Son and Spirit define who they are in relation to the Father, and not descriptive of what they agreed with the Father to do, then, as of logical necessity, despite the disclaimers made, the Son and Spirit are ontologically inferior to the Father. This is a heresy condemned by the Greek Church in 381 A.D and by the Roman Church in 382 A.D.

Damasus, Bishop of Rome (ca. 367-384 A.D.). He was a very capable Bible scholar and theologian, who sought to maintain strong ties with the Eastern Church and gave strong support in their common struggle against the Arian heresy troubling both East and West. And then in a letter to Paulinus, an Eastern bishop, he recorded the decision of a Roman Council, over which he had presided, which had met to confirm the Nicene Creed and to condemn all contemporary heretical departures from orthodox Christianity. And in that letter, designated by some scholars as the “Tome of Damasus,” we read:

We anathemize 1) Those who do not proclaim with freedom that the Holy Spirit is of one power and substance with the Father and the Son; 2) those who follow the error of Sabellius, saying that the Father is the same person as the Son; 3) Arius and Eunomius, who with the same ungodliness, though in different words, assert that the Son and the Holy Spirit are creatures….If anyone denies: 10) that the Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, the Holy Spirit is eternal, he is a heretic; 11) that the Son was born of the Father, that is, of his divine substance, he is a heretic; 12) that the Son of God is true God, just as the Father is true God, having all power, knowing all things, and equal to the Father, he is a heretic;…16) that the Holy Spirit is truly and properly from the Father, and, like the Son is of the divine substance and is true God, he is a heretic; 17) that the Holy Spirit has all power and knows all things, and is everywhere just as the Father and the Son, he is a heretic;…19) that the Father made all things through the Son and through His Holy Spirit, he is a heretic; 20) that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have one divinity, authority, majesty, power, one glory, dominion, one kingdom and one will and truth, he is a heretic; 21) that the three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are true persons, equal, eternal…omnipotent, he is a heretic; 22) that the Holy Spirit must be adored by every creature, just as the Son and the Father, he is a heretic;…24) but if anyone, while saying the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God, makes a division and says that they are gods, and does not say they are one God, precisely on account of the one divinity and power which we believe and know is possessed by the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, he is a heretic…Therefore, this is the salvation of Christians: that believing in the Trinity, that is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and being baptized in the Trinity, we may unhesitatingly believe in the Trinity there is only one true divinity and power, majesty and substance (Cf. Edmund J. Fortman, “The Pre-Augustinian Phase,” The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Trinity)

And this understanding of the relations between the Three Persons of the Triune God is affirmed by Augustine in his book, The Trinity, and by John Calvin in his The Institutes of the Christian Religion.

So the historical evidence is that Athanasius, the Council of Nicea, the Council of Rome, Augustine, Calvin, and others rejected Modalism, Tritheism, Arianism, and Semi-Arianism, in all shapes and forms, as deadly heresies to be rejected by orthodox Christians. In my opinion, ESS, which at the very least is a clear form of Semi-Arianism, needs to be rejected right out. There is no need to wait and see what becomes of it.

Comment by Liz

February 12, 2009 @ 10:13 pm

Agreed! Maybe Dr Freeman was giving the caution to those who would otherwise accept ESS without question because of the calibre of those advocating it. I don’t think for a moment that he was suggesting that maybe it will prove to be an orthodox belief.

Comment by jlp

February 12, 2009 @ 10:46 pm

Thanks for sharing this with us, Frank. It is awesome. It’s the same stuff that I believe 1600 years later. It describes precisely how I see the relations between the trinity from reading the New Testament.

Comment by Liz

February 13, 2009 @ 1:42 am

JLP..I think there is a word missing after ‘I believe’

Comment by Larry S

February 13, 2009 @ 9:20 am

I think Frank, Liz and I are actually agreeing with one another.

My comment 88659 came from reading comments by young pastor types who appear to assume ESS is a correct understanding of the Trinity – i think based on who told them about ESS.

Comment by Frank

February 13, 2009 @ 1:01 pm

In my last comment (88665), I meant to write “Consider Damasus, Bishop of Rome…,” but somehow left it out, making the opening statement a bit more awkward than I intended. Sorry about that.
Liz, I myself don’t think Dr. Freeman meant to leave the door open for the acceptence of EES. Unfortunately, having been in debates with opponents waiting to use, to their own advantage, any statement I made that might be ambiguous enough to use against me, I thought the statement “until ESS has been tested by the whole Church, it seems prudent to wait” was such a statement. Othewise, I think you, Larry, and I agree that ESS is unacceptable for any orthodox Christian to receive untested and unchallenged, whoever advocates it.

Comment by Sonnet

February 14, 2009 @ 10:54 pm

I believe that ESS theology and their corresponding view of complementarian gender relations teaches a lower understanding of God. It appears that they do not believe in a God who is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. God is able to communicate directly with ALL of His children. So why would God need or want to set up a chain of command to communicate with and to lead half of his adopted children? Do they believe He isn’t powerful enough? All knowing enough? And unable to be everywhere at the same time? Earthly rulers need a chain of command because they aren’t God. I’m thankful for a God who created the vast universe and yet knows the number of hairs on our heads and desires a deep, personal relationship with everyone of His children.

Comment by Liz

February 15, 2009 @ 6:55 pm

Sue..you are absolutely correct in that complementarians treat this whole issue as a war to be fought and won and it’s because they feel they are defending God and his truth. Every egalitarian has to ask God what their part should be in promoting true biblical equality and to do it with humility and the realisation that for others to come to this understanding often means for them to look and listen to material they have been told is extremely ungodly.

Christians for Biblical Equality is doing a wonderful work in this area and every week there are gains being made. We can remind ourselves that the whole CBMW movement began as a response to the formation and statements of CBE. In some of the most repressed nations, there are gains being made in the area of respect and equality for women which are unprecedented. The whole teaching of patriarchy has been around for centuries and will take much work and a long time to change so we work little by little, wherever we are called to demonstrate equality and speak up where we have opportunity.

Maybe your challenge, Sue, will spur some of us on to greater things and remind us to be more pro-active in our witnessing to a far better way of living.
Meanwhile, CBE would welcome more members who would be regularly reading the magazines which give us excellent reasons for what we believe, personal testimonies and good scholarship. We are also encouraged in ways we can actively promoted equality and there is the support of a like-minded community. For any who are not aware of this organisation you can go to the website for details on what we believe, free online articles, a bookshop etc.

http://www.cbeinternational.org

Comment by Liz

February 15, 2009 @ 7:01 pm

Frank….were you hoping to find time to write the book since you already have the outline ? Maybe you could discuss this with CBE and collaborate with some of their authors.

There is already the excellent resource entitled ‘Discovering Biblical Equality’ which is a compilation by several egalitarian authors and a look at the CBE online bookshop would show the vast range of books already available.

Pamphlets are always a good idea as many people do not read deeply and want something quick and easy. There is a neat booklet called ‘the ABC’s of Biblical Equality’ by Gretchen G. Hull which we have used and it is great for an introduction for people who don’t want to discuss seemingly difficult passages.

PS: If you write the book, we will buy a copy for sure!

Comment by Sue

February 16, 2009 @ 9:30 am

Yes, Liz, CBE has taught us well. The CBE leadership in particular has worked hard to study, research, and educate those of us who knew that what was being taught in the church wasn’t right but didn’t know why.

Just like a pastor teaches his or her congregation, CBE has taught us. But a pastor doesn’t teach just for the congregation’s sake. The congregants are called to share what they have learned with others as well.

Yes, patriarchy is thousands of years old. But so was slavery. It didn’t take thousands of years to overturn slavery. Women couln’t vote in the US for well over a hundred years. It didn’t take 100 years to get the right to vote.

What did the abolitionists and suffragettes do?

We have something the abolitionists and suffragettes didn’t have. Our culture supports equality.

CBE has taught us why equality is right and biblical. But we need to do more than just receive the good news. We are called to spread the good news.

Are some of us gifted in strategic planning? In public relations? In marketing? In sales? In management? In leadership? Do some of us have networking connections that could help spread the word?

Thank God for CBE as a valuable resource! But are we fully using all the resources God has given us?

Comment by joanne

February 16, 2009 @ 9:47 am

one thing we need is more resources on marriage generally. The mis-information i encounter is that mutual marriage is about equal tasks and equal role sharing. When my husband and I embarked on the mutual marriage experience, we did not have models to work from. In his mind it was only about jobs and tasks. We did not have a good understanding of how to develop more depth and connection in our relationship. There is a lot of information on conflict resolution and making decisions mutually but little on intimacy from a mutual marriage point of view. Complimentarian versions of this have a lot of gender stereotype frames that are a big turn off for us.

I think much work needs to be done in writing books and marriage curriculum for churches that can help couples not only solve conflicts but develop deeper connection and intimacy. Some resources are also bent toward feminism and seem to speak that agenda. I think curriculum could be designed that is more welcoming to those exploring mutual marriage by promoting depth and intimacy.

Friends whose marriages are in trouble gravitate toward churches who teach on marriage. And most teach from a complimentarian perspective in our area. More needs to be done with seminars and web-casts that are church friendly and fairly non-controversial focusing on relationship growth more than ideology. I think we can have the mutuality frame without overt ideology.

Comment by Liz

February 16, 2009 @ 5:20 pm

It’s so true about the lack of marriage material. We have looked for years for suitable literature for running seminars or even to work through with couples.

It seems easier and more accepted to have something which has easy to define roles and gender stereotypes than the non-tangible aspects like esteem, acceptance, thoughtfulness, discovery and etc. Maybe that’s another reason why hierarchy in general is so taken up by the ‘masses’ – it’s easier to follow a schedule, a 1,2,3 of relationships. In other words..law is easier to define than grace and yet grace is a far higher condition to live under.

Comment by Sonnet

February 16, 2009 @ 9:45 pm

How Gender Roles and Functions are Similar to the Hindu Caste System

Lately, I’ve been pondering on how gender role hierarchy, which permanently subordinates women to men, is very similar philosophically to the Hindu caste system. I decided to “google” the caste system and found some interesting results.

Here are some excerpts from this link:
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_caste.asp
by Jayaram V

“…it recognized inequalities among men based on birth and family lineage and proclaimed it to be the will of God.”

“wrongfully created human stereotypes to justify a social structure”

“…denying a vast majority of people opportunities to use their inborn talents and pursue their own dreams and aspirations.”

“People of higher castes enjoyed privileges but were also expected to be good role models.”

“upper castes enjoyed distinct advantages”

“The British did not attempt to abolish caste system as they saw in it a great opportunity to maintain their hold by keeping the society divided.”

“The original purpose of the caste system, at least in theory, was not to exploit the weaker castes but establish social order, regulate the affairs of the people and preserve the sacred law.”

He listed these 6 disadvantages:

1. Exploitation of the Weak – “unjust and exploitative… giving rise to social injustices, disabilities and inequalities”

2. Disunity and division of loyalties

3. Foreign domination – “By relegating the physically strong population to menial labor and ignoring them in the political affairs of the country, except for tax and labor purposes, the Hindu rulers deprived themselves of able bodied soldiers who could have defended them and their empires against foreign aggression.”

4. Preferential Treatment – “based on birth rather than individual talent and vocational choice.” “…preferred to protect the less competent or the incompetent among the higher castes from the more talented lower caste… This biased approach stilted the growth of the nation and contributed to its downfall in course of time.”

5. Conversions to other Religions – “to escape the social indignities and inequalities associated with their castes”

6. Instrument of Oppression – “subjected them… without fear as the lower castes did not enjoy equal rights”

“Caste based organizations and associations still exist in India and play a crucial role in perpetuating the idea of caste.”

“…does not fit into the values and principles of modern times, such as democracy, fundamental rights, individual freedom, equality and non-discrimination… ”

“Followers and upholders of Hinduism cannot and should not rationalize caste system if they want to maintain the credibility of Hinduism…”

“Scholars tend to rationalize the caste system by quoting the Purushasukta and the Bhagavadgita. They ignore the fact that these verses contradict the very core values of Hinduism emphasized in the same texts and present a world view that is a negation of Hinduism.”

“We have already seen its negative impact. …the lower castes were pushed to the wall and made to feel bad about themselves. It is time we… move forward to establish an egalitarian society based upon firm ethical and spiritual foundation … to meet the challenges of the coming times and appeal to the inquisitive and advanced minds of the future generations.”

Comment by Leigh

February 17, 2009 @ 10:19 am

Liz–Thank you for saying what I’ve been thinking! (88690) It’s a bit easier to write about things that are more clearly defined. When one has to work within relationship to figure out how the relationship is supposed to work, that’s a little more difficult.

“Okay, God is our focus here, our leader, and we are supposed to work together for his glory…” I think there are so many different ways this looks, in practice. A lot depends on the gifting of each person.

I don’t get the focus among soft comps on “tiebreaking”. I’ve not been married long, but we’ve not yet run up against a wall so hard that we didn’t work our way through it over time. Or aren’t still doing so ;-).

And Sonnet (88691 and others), I always appreciate your input. Information from other times and/or other cultures, always relevant to the here and now.

Which reminds me: Whenever comps claim they are being countercultural (which is not necessarily the same as being scriptural, of course), they really are talking about a limited time and place. Yet the observation is being given as evidence that their position is scriptural. I believe a number of cultures currently would *support* a soft- or hard-comp type of view, independent of religion.

Comment by Frank

February 17, 2009 @ 12:56 pm

Liz, I was glad to learn that my suggestions about what we could do to champion biblical equality seemed more helpful and inspiring than I had imagined. I am not sure which book, that I apparently suggested and outlined, you are referring to when you ask if I have the time to write it. If you were referring to what I tentatively titled as “The 7 Pillars of Complementarianism Exposed and Refuted,” it is something beyond what I could do myself.

Comment by historyloveralways

February 17, 2009 @ 1:18 pm

Thanks Sonnet. I appreciated your post.

Comment by Frank

February 17, 2009 @ 1:58 pm

I had an errand to attend to, so I am back to add a bit more to my previous comment.

I remember that Francis Schaeffer, when discussing our responsibility to proclaim, defend and confirm the Gospel in our generation said, “While you may not be able to do all there is that needs to be done, neither can you do nothing at all about what needs to be done. You must do something, in accordance with your God-given gifts, abilities, and opportunities.” (Not an exact quote, but as close as I can remember)

Now for me, as an educated layminister that means, for instance, writing articles on the Trinity and on the Bible and Women Preachers, and either sending them to sympathetic friends, who are editors, like my friend Jon Zens, or sending them to friends who important teachers in local congregations, like my friend, Robert K. Wright. And I have also warned people about the Trinitarian heresy in Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology and encouraged them to purchase and use more sound theologies, like James M. Boice’s Foundations of Christian Faith. So that is a start; we all have to start somewhere.

Comment by jlp

February 17, 2009 @ 8:40 pm

Thanks for the encouragement, Frank.

Comment by Sue (not the previous Sue)

February 17, 2009 @ 11:50 pm

If you were referring to what I tentatively titled as “The 7 Pillars of Complementarianism Exposed and Refuted,” it is something beyond what I could do myself.

Let me offer something off my blog. Free of charge.

Comment by Liz

February 18, 2009 @ 12:26 am

One of our wedding gifts 43 years ago was a wall plaque with the words

“Christ is the head of this house. The unseen guest at every meal.
The silent listener to every conversation”

It has pride of place on our dining room wall and most likely influenced us greatly as we began our life together. It is interesting that we haven’t seen this particular item in Christian bookshops for many years.

And..in our 43 years we have never used any sort of ‘tie-breaker’. If two Christians can’t come to agreement through prayer, waiting and consideration of each other there is something seriously wrong IMHO.

Comment by Liz

February 18, 2009 @ 1:19 am

Another way of describing mutuality in marriage is with the diagram of a triangle with Christ at the apex and the woman and man in the two bottom angles. They relate to each other and each go through Christ as their ‘head’….simple.

Comment by Liz

February 19, 2009 @ 7:06 am

For Leigh and anyone else who would like some practical ideas about mutual submission in marriage I would like to recommend the book “Heirs Together” by Patricia Gundry. It has heaps of great examples as well as biblical backing for the mutuality principle. It is published by Suitcase books and is available from the CBE bookshop Equality Depot. It’s the only marriage book we recommend to people.

Comment by Frank

February 19, 2009 @ 7:32 pm

Sue, I read your guest blog on the Evangelical Village, “Why I Am An Egalitarian,” and I would say you did an excellent job in presentation and argumentation. Certainly a good resource. Thanks for recommending it. I noticed there were 2 commentators who insisted you explain how men and women were different. It seems they were assuming a radical difference in sexuality and psychology between the sexes that somehow gave males an edge over women. It appears that they weren’t considering the “nature vs. nurture” aspect of male and female development. Is that a problem you often have with complementarians in dealing with “differentiation”?

Comment by jlp

February 19, 2009 @ 10:48 pm

I just found a link to a website with important information that touches on this issue. It’s:

http://evepheso.wordpress.com/

At this blog Mike Aubrey deals with the assumption that when submission is used in the New Testament it always refers to submission to authority. Mike Aubrey gives evidence to dispute this. Go there and read his post. You will enjoy it.

Comment by Mike Aubrey

February 21, 2009 @ 12:59 pm

It should be clarified that I do not think that Paul was a modern egalitarian in any sense. He’s from a patriarchal culture and he reflects much of that while also sowing the seeds for the equality as God intended (an equality that is founded in Genesis).

Comment by jlp

February 22, 2009 @ 12:14 am

Frank,

Your link is dead. I clicked on several of your posts and all of them took me to a dead link.

Comment by Sue (not the previous Sue)

February 25, 2009 @ 8:02 pm

Hi Frank,

Thanks. I missed reading this for a few days.

It seems they were assuming a radical difference in sexuality and psychology between the sexes that somehow gave males an edge over women. It appears that they weren’t considering the “nature vs. nurture” aspect of male and female development. Is that a problem you often have with complementarians in dealing with “differentiation”?

I kept asking them how they saw women as different apart from the physiological, and I don’t think they ever answered that.

Perhaps they think that if women are different from men, they don’t feel the same need for respect as men do, or they don’t mind not being treated as equals. It comforts them to think that women were created for subordination and don’t have the same ambitions and feelings that men have. I don’t know.

Comment by Sue (not the previous Sue)

February 25, 2009 @ 8:07 pm

Frank,

I have a blogful of studies on kephale and authentein etc. I have images of the Greek texts that used to be used as evidence that authentein meant “to have authority.” Since that claim is clearly bogus now, I think most exegetes argue that we know the meaning of authentein only from context and nothing else.

Actually, I am losing interest in this fight since complementarians have so obviously constructed bogus arguments over and over again that I can’t take them seriously any more. But if you want any particular evidence find my email on my blog in my profile and email me.

Comment by joanne

February 27, 2009 @ 9:33 am

Sue, Frank, Balswick and Balswick has an interesting chart on male/female differences.

They draw two parallel lines showing actual differences and two parallel lines showing socialized differences.

The actual differences are less than the socialized differences. So… my point is that socialization of differences needs to be accounted for.

Also differences do not mean incapacity. I may be different but not incapable. I will only utilize my difference and approach a task or role differently. It does not mean incapable.

Finally, there are 16 different personality types according to myers and briggs. Why on earth would we divide persons only into male and female personality types.

These are errors in complimentarian thinking and reveal their agenda once again.

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