The CBE Scroll

Comment by John Umland

February 1, 2009 @ 8:14 pm

Why is there a battle if the denominational “marketplace” has enough options for women who feel a call to a ministry withheld from them in some churches? Why not go to the egalitarian churches in their town? Why marry into a denomination that is contrary to their beliefs? Why would an egalitarian bother going to a complementarian church when there are options?
God is good
jpu

Comment by Mike Farley

February 2, 2009 @ 2:37 am

“If only men would realize that they lose everything – everything – when they seek to silence and suppress the Holy Spirit’s gifting and calling upon women. The whole church suffers…”

Absolutely! I don’t think I’ve ever read it put so well. Thank you!

Comment by Sue

February 2, 2009 @ 9:53 am

I think John is right. I think Mary Ann’s statement was absolutely correct in many ways, but the last paragraph came across as very passive.

John is right when he asks why we go to churches that disrespect us. We do have options. We need to put our hearts and our money into ministries that give full respect to women.

Think of some of the ministries that are out front promoting disrespect for women; especially radio and television ministries. What percentage of their financial support comes from women?

The only reason hierarchalists are succeeding to the extent that they are is because they are being very strategic in how they are handling their maintenance of power. Their leaders collaborate on strategies to hold onto their positions. Their very credibility and livelihood stands on maintaining hierarchy. They make sure they put hierarchalists as leaders of youth groups so their view gets promoted to the young. They read everything egalitarians write and listen to everything we say, and then they immediately respond to it in some way. They collaborate on how to portray egalitarians to discredit what we are doing: They say we do not respect the Bible; they say we believe there is no difference between the sexes; they call us liberals. They promote us in that way even when they know it is not true. They do all of this with one voice. All the while they are promoting us in such an ungodly, negative manner, they are claiming they believe in the full equality of women and are calling themselves a pretty name like “complementarians!” I have come to believe that their moves are more closely aligned with political strategizing than with spirituality. Why else would they knowingly promote us and themselves in ways that they know are not true?

We need to come off the defensive and take the offensive to promote what is right.

Women cannot passively hope that the men will realize hierarchy hurts them too any more than the black population could wait until whites came to their senses. Blacks had to rightfully take steps to put a stop to it. Do we really believe men are hurt by hierarchy like women are? They have no motivation to change as it stands now.

Comment by LMcC

February 2, 2009 @ 1:20 pm

John (88609):

In many parts of the US, those of us who are both egalitarian and theologically conservative do *not* have options. Here in my area (for example), thanks to heavy-duty Southern Baptist influence, even many conservative denominations that are supposed to be egalitarian have fallen into lockstep with the SBC on the sex roles issue. My husband and I did try a church outside our tradition, only to find out the pastor is in serious error over other major doctrines.

I suppose if the egal in question is single or has a family agreeable to relocation, s/he could move to another part of the country and get a better choice of denominations. I did that myself when I was single (and before I became egalitarian). Unfortunately, many of us have families, careers, and other responsibilities which don’t let us just pack up and go. As a result, all we can do is keep looking out for some little church that dares to buck the trend, or we can do what we can to improve the situation in the churches we are in.

Comment by jlp

February 2, 2009 @ 4:45 pm

This is a good post, it describes a very real problem.

Comment by Gloria

February 2, 2009 @ 8:25 pm

This post highlights two problems that I’m facing, personally:

1. I’m almost scared to seek work in a professional field (especially a technical one) because I get the impression that it’s the norm in most blue-collar workplaces in fields that employ mostly men for there to be lots of sex jokes, nude calendars, etc., etc.

I’m not concerned about being harassed per se, but would my mere presence be heavily resented because the boys couldn’t make dirty jokes in the presence of a woman? How would I deal with it if people WERE making degrading jokes in my presence? I confess that my social skills are not very strong to begin with, and I’d be scared of making enemies by expressing discomfort with attitudes in the workplace.

In my previous job I worked in a very equal environment – but I had one coworker who was continually “joking” about another coworker who was home schooled… this made me uncomfortable because I, too, was home schooled. I tried not to be too offended, but it was irritating. I’m trying to picture what it would be like if the jokes had been about females, instead…

I don’t think these concerns are enough to keep me from seeking employment, but it’s something that troubles me a little.

2. I will likely soon be in a position of searching for a church. Ideally, I would love to be involved in a house church or small congregation – but either way, I feel like I want to become involved with a group of believers whose ideals align closely with mine…

But should I be seeking a place where I’ll be comfortable, or should I simply go with whatever is the nearest church and seek to get involved and try to change things if they are not optimal? I don’t think I would be very successful, but I know that God can work through insignificant people like me, so… perhaps it could work out.

It’s so hard to tell which is the preferable route. What if the only egalitarian church in town is one with very liberal theology? I don’t really know what I will choose. I just pray that God will let my husband and I find someplace we’ll be at home (though it’ll undoubtedly only be for a couple of years, since we don’t stay in any one place for very long).

Comment by jlp

February 3, 2009 @ 3:13 pm

Gloria,

I worked in a tech field for 10 years. As long as you never laugh at an off-color joke they will not be made around you. I also never had to deal with any nude calendars, and I worked around a lot of men.

Comment by Liz

February 3, 2009 @ 3:28 pm

Hi Gloria
Thanks for sharing your concerns. It highlights the real pressures which women can face in the workplace and it is understandable that you could be a little anxious. I too have worked in that kind of environment, but only in the office which means there was only limited involvement with the guys in the workshop.
The men in the office and sales departments were just the same as regards jokes and loose talk – sadly some of the women joined them in this sort of conversation.

The main issue for me would be to pray lots about which place was where God would want me to be and go where I felt was his appointment. Then you can be OK, even if it is awkward at times as you have a sense of mission and purpose apart from your everyday work.

Even when in the place that God has for you, it won’t always be peaceful and easy but it will be part of your growth and learning to depend more on God. Sometimes situations are just for a time and then we can move on.
Since you are married there will be opportunities to put in a word here and there about your relationship and show the other workers that you are happy and fulfilled without all the usual ‘silly talk’ related to matters of gender.

When it comes to choice of church, the same thing applies….seek God together.
One thing to consider perhaps is that if the church is a ‘liberal’ one then the reason for showing equality for women may not be from a biblical basis anyway. It is a hard choice and shows that it isn’t an easy matter of looking for a fully egalitarian, biblically based church – sometimes there isn’t one nearby.

Comment by Liz

February 3, 2009 @ 3:48 pm

Sue, I would like to comment on two of your statements. You said ” they promote us in that way even when they know it is not true” I would suggest that ‘they’ firmly believe what they are saying is true as complementarians appeal to the bible as the reason for their claims, just as we do. In my experience I have never met complementarians who thought they were deliberately twisting the truth. Maybe you have personal experience of what you stated, otherwise you would be making judgments about other people’s motives which only God can see.

Yes, I really believe that men are hurt by hierarchy too. Obviously not in the same way as women, although when men align themselves with equality and speak up they are often treated with the same disrespect and suspicion as women. Men are hurt when women are not treated well, whether the men realise it or not, because things are not as God intended and so everyone suffers.

True, many men have no reason to change as they have power (whether they realise it or not) and women will be the main source of enlightenment as you said. However, because men have the power, they also have the power to bring about change and influence other men. They also can support women in their efforts and be an immense encouragement.

Comment by Frank

February 4, 2009 @ 12:57 pm

I think that Liz comments to Gloria and Sue contain some wise counsel and advice. And I can’t think of anything I would add to that. But, if I may, I would like to share my experience as a Christian man who stood up, not only for his Christian sisters, but also for Christ and the Gospel.

Some years ago, I was involved in a study group of Christians who, while from different churches and denominations, were essentially Reformed in their theology. We met twice a month to present and debate papers that, from a Reformed perspective, explored how the Reformed viewpoint applied to various social, moral, and theological issues facing Christians in modern America. And at the time, the controversies that really stirred people up were the Christian Reconstructionists’ advocacy of the Mosaic Law being the rule of both Christian life and society, and, of course, the true role of women in the home and in the church.

Now, you might not believe it, but I am not a person who enjoys participating in controversial debates just for the sake of engaging in controversy. Then, as now, I fight the battles I fight because the honor of the Lord Jesus Christ, the truth and sufficiency of the Gospel Faith (its kingdom doctrines and ethics),and the effective promotion of the truth, justice, righteousness and peace of God’s present and future kingdom within the Church–these are the things truly at stake, not my own position nor reputation.

Well, in the Law and Gospel debate with the Reconstructionists, I calmly and rationally argued from the New Testament that the Law of Christ, as commanded and practiced by Christ and the Apostles under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and not the Mosaic Legal Code, determined how Christians, individually and corporately, lived their lives in the world. Of course, those who were influenced by this heresy branded me a heretic, an antinomian, a hater of God and his perfect Law. Some of them were former college mates and friends. And did it hurt and wound me? Yes, it did. But I stood my ground and took comfort in the promise of Christ himself: “Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil because you are my loyal followers. Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated God’s true prophets in the past” (Lk. 6:22-23, my rendering).

And then in the debate on women, I gave a presentation on prophecy and prophetic ministry in the Old and New Testaments, and argued that 1 Tim 2:8-15 was to be regarded as exceptional to a specific historical problem, not an eternal prohibition on women preaching and teaching. Of course, I was accused, again, of being a heretic, of being influenced by secular feminism, of twisting the Scriptures, etc. However, being convinced of the truth of Gal. 3:26-4:7 and 2 Cor. 5:11-21, I was convinced that crucial matters of truth and justice were at stake here, and so took the risk I did. And this particular debate spurred me on to do further research and so develop stronger arguments that were turned into a major article and published in the 1992 issue of what was then the Journal of Biblical Equality.

So there are times when we men, not only for our sisters’ sake, but for our Lord Jesus and his Kingdom, must count the cost and stand firm for the Gospel Faith, come what may.

Comment by jlp

February 4, 2009 @ 2:53 pm

Thanks Frank! I am encouraged when I hear about men defending the dignity of women.

Comment by leigh

February 4, 2009 @ 3:37 pm

Agreed, Frank. Thank you for sharing.

It is nothing less than the character of God that is being maligned when women are not permitted to do that for which they are gifted and called: be it serving in a certain role in church or being heirs together (thank you Patricia Gundry) and partners with their husbands.

It is amazing how many people do not grasp this.

Comment by Kate

February 6, 2009 @ 8:51 am

Can anyone tell me a theologically conservative denomination that holds women as equals in all respects? I agree with what others have said, it is easy to say that we should go to a church that values women, but then they often do not value the True Gospel. I am not willing to compromise on the gospel, but find myself uneasy in other ways. I keep looking, but…

Comment by joanne

February 6, 2009 @ 10:01 am

Kate: The Evangelical Covenant Church is theologically conservative… Centrality of Scripture, Necessity of a New Birth. The ECC welcomes women and ordains them but some areas and individual churches have differing levels of welcome toward women. Many leaders are working to help alieviate the discrimination that exists in the local congregation with a variety of strategies. I just returned from the yearly conference of the ECC and am revelling in the comment made by Ephram Smith, Pastor of Sanctuary Covenant, Mpls, MN…at the gathering of pastors, “if your congregation is not ready to receive a woman pastor, then it is your fault.”

Many pastors and leaders are advocates… but much work is still to be done. I say all of this to remark that the ECC is welcoming and affirming of women in ministry but is working it out in practice.

Comment by leigh

February 6, 2009 @ 12:46 pm

The Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) is theologically conservative and does not at a denominational level support women as equal partners in the church or in the home, HOWEVER,

various churches within the denomination are supportive in varying degrees: some up until the point at which they risk being kicked out of the PCA (and possibly destroying the church) for going any further. Some churches have women deacons and liturgists, for example, and women serving communion, but not women elders. They may also be supportive of equal partnership in marriage, but that could be something that would be less obvious to tell from visiting a church without speaking with the pastors directly.

Comment by Frank

February 6, 2009 @ 1:59 pm

Because of Joanne’s comments about the ECCA (88631), of which I am presently an active member, I feel I should share briefly what Paul Harvey calls “the rest of the story” I related above (88625). Perhaps sharing my experience as a “wandering exile” who found a home in the ECCA will be instructive and helpful.

Due to my views on the Law and the Gospel, Women in ministry, and progressive creationism (i.e.,old earth creationism, or Day=Age Creationism, such as taught by Hugh Ross and RTB), in the Reformed Baptist circles I moved in at the time, some suspected me of being a “closet liberal” and challenged me at every turn they could. So much so, that it became difficult to minister there consistently and effectively. So when I heard of a nearby Evangelical Free Church where Calvinists and Egalitarians were apparently welcome, I left where I was and went there for about two years, and was actively involved in their singles ministry, in a supportive role.

Perhaps as some of my fellow exiles may have experienced, the situation at the EFC I attended turned out to be not quite what I had been led to expect. The situation was that various leaders in the church were either complementarian or egalitarian, and the “women’s issue,” as some called it, was being seriously studied and discussed. However, it was the Senior Pastor whose decision determined the direction the church would take on the matter. He came to the conclusion that the complementarian view was the “truer” view of Scripture, and while persons could hold the egalitarian view in private, any advocacy of that view would be strongly resisted. Well, I decided that as a issue of truth and justice, this was not a ruling I could abide by, so very reluctantly, I left this church and visited several churches for about a year or so.

Then I started attending a small Evangelical Covenant Church. I had gone there primarily because, while active in the Front Range Chapter of CBE, I had been told not only was the ECCA theologically orthodox, but also egalitarian friendly. While not strictly Reformed or Baptistic in their theology, the ECCA was biblically and theologically sound. And I enjoyed the expository preaching of the Senior Pastor.

However, by the time I decided to become a member, it became clear that the Senior Pastor and some of the other current leaders, were strongly complementarian in their views and distrustful of egalitarians. But at the time, for various reasons I won’t go into now, I believe that is where the Lord wanted me to settle. And so before I did, I prayed and made the following resolutions and promises:

1. Whatever our differences, there were 12 doctrines essential to Christianity that we held in common and that would be the basis of my joining and working in the church.

2. Before joining the church, I declared my views on Calvinism, Women, and Creation, promising that while I would not be a “trouble maker,” when people asked me what I believed on these things, I would tell them the what and why of it.

Comment by Mary Ann

February 6, 2009 @ 2:11 pm

In response to John (88609), people don’t go to egal churches because a good egal church is not so very easily found. It took my husband and me two years before we found one. At that point, I had given up hope that there was such a thing in the city where we live.

But, more than wanting to be in a welcoming & empowering place for myself, I wish that biblical equality would pervade ‘mainstream Christianity’. I wish that Christian radio and Christian bookstores wouldn’t be full of sermons and books about women submitting. I wish that single women from churches other than my own wouldn’t have that lustful longing in their eyes whenever they attend weddings because they feel that to be a wife and mother is their only true calling in life and they are lost without it.

Sue’s comments (88614) are so on the money! Hierarchicalists ARE so strategic about how they handle the maintenance of power. Thanks for writing those insights. But in regard to the statement that my last paragraph seems rather passive: I don’t mean that women shouldn’t strive to teach, preach, write and explain biblical equality or that they should wait around and do nothing until the men realize that inequality affects them too. Women SHOULD be doing those things — and as they HAVE BEEN, they have shed so much wonderful new light in all their research and contributions thus far. But I do believe that in addition to all that, men in power who really believe that women need to be silent are not going to listen to women tell them they are wrong or relinquish their power unless other men stand up and fight for it. At least, this is what I suspect from the hierarchicalist men I have encountered in my life. These are the kind of men who might take notes vigorously when a male pastor speaks but will close their notebooks when they see that a woman has come up to ‘share’. They close their ears and hearts simply because they believe that women are not supposed to have authority over a man. Makes me sad.

Comment by Kate

February 6, 2009 @ 3:51 pm

thanks, I’ll check out if there are any ECC in my area. We currently attend an Evangelical Pres. Church (EPC). Before attending, we read their documents, beliefs, etc. All pointed to conservative theo but embraced women in any role, including senior pastor, embraced gifts of the Holy Spirit, etc. – in other words, a lot that we liked. However, the longer we were there the more evident it became that this church is complementarian and there are no women elders, deacons, or ‘heaven forbid’ a pastor, and that is the way the pastor and elders like it. One elder even told us that “they are not like those liberal churches who allow women in leadership.” ALLOW? I hate when that word is used. It in itself says that they have the power to make those decisions, and yes, Sue is spot on. They are much more aligned to PCA. (although Leigh describes a much more egal view, I have never seen a PCA in our area that embraced egal ways.) Maybe it is more up to the individual leadership as it is in the EPC. But I continue to get discouraged…

Comment by leigh

February 6, 2009 @ 4:58 pm

Yes, gender egalitarianism is a slow movement in the PCA, although I recently noted that the language on the PCAs website concerning women has been changed for the better sometime in the last few years (I don’t look at it very often ;-) ).

I think that among conservative denominations particularly, one has to get to the level of the individual church in order to know how women are *really* viewed.

I have heard that the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) still has some theologically conservative churches, but that is on the wane, apparently.

I am sorry: I know this search is difficult.

Comment by Liz

February 6, 2009 @ 5:11 pm

Hi Sue – I commented on your comment 88614 and talked about complementarians not necessarily knowing that equality is true and that they believe they are the ones who are true to scripture. However..I would want to agree with you and Mary Ann in the fact of their organisation and advertising as being very strategic and effective. They do this with a fervour born out of the belief that they are defending scripture and standing against worldliness. It is all so sad that people can be so sincere and so wrong.

Interestingly, I seldom hear those who promote hierarchy saying they are sad that we believe in equality because our motives are pure. We are usually treated as heretics as Frank has expressed.

Comment by Liz

February 6, 2009 @ 5:32 pm

For those in Australia who read this blog, it is very difficult to find an egalitarian church which is also conservative on other issues. One of the main criticisms of our beliefs re equality is that it will lead to acceptance of a homosexual lifestyle and that we are promoting adrogony (genderless humans)

As others have already said, you have to visit a church a couple of times and maybe ask to talk with the leaders to find out what their position really is. To be in a church where women are free to ‘do’ anything but at the cost of liberal views on essential matters is not an option for many of us. Each person has to ask God to show them where they can best be built up and/or serve but hopefully enjoy both.

Because of the huge amount of material which is circulating through bookshops and word of mouth, even if people have doubts or questions about the place of women it is hard for them to look into the issue because they have the weight of public opinion against them.

Since retiring nearly 3 years ago from our ministry of 35 years in the one church (which progressed to full equality in that time) we have only attended one church which is truly egalitarian and conservative in matters of faith. We don’t go there regularly as it is quite a distance from where we live and we were looking for a place in our area.

Sometimes we have emailed the pastor to ask what their position is and we haven’t had a reply. The same with those promoting marriage courses. One group sent us their literature which we really appreciated but it was full of headship teaching – usually we hear nothing. Maybe a bit of disagreement would be better than silence ? But we are committed to having Christ-like attitudes to those who disagree and so do not pursue the matter if we see the leaders of a group are committed to complementarianism.

The local Baptist pastor believes in equality in both home and church but is treading a careful line as he attempts to lead the church through to a more biblical understanding. We have offered to talk with the elders or run a seminar but it doesn’t seem to be the time for that yet.

For any Australians who would like to talk further about biblical equality you can contact us through the Scroll and we would be very happy to be in contact. We live in WA and would love to have a chapter for CBE here. There is one in Melbourne and we could put you in contact with them.

Comment by Frank

February 6, 2009 @ 5:34 pm

Sorry that my previous comment (88633) ends a bit abruptly, but unfortunately I’m still in the process of looking for a permanent job, and there were some urgent matters, related to this task, which I had to attend to. And so I’ll complete my story.

Earlier, I referred to some resolutions and promises, made to both God and the church, while the Senior Pastor present was a complementarian. I mentioned two above, which were public in nature. Now I will mention others, one or two of which were between me and God:

3. What I describe as the Peter/Paul principle, ala 2 Tim. 2:24-26 and 1 Pet. 3:15-16. When I was asked to discuss these controversial issues, with as much patience, kindness and respect I could, I explained why I believed my viewpoint was more biblical, rational and just than the traditional view, giving a gentle challenge that people study both Scripture and Christian history themselves and decide which view rang true.

4. What I describe as the innocent/shrewdness principle of Matt. 10:16. Being involved in prayer meetings, worship teams, mission committees, gaining peoples respect and trust because of my authentic committment to Christ, the spread of the Gospel, and the spiritual growth and health of the church. Also, it involved some subtle risk-taking, such as when asked to read Scripture during worship, and the passages being read applied to all Christians, I purposely would say “brothers and sisters” wherever I could; on committees where women were serving with men, I expressed support of their involvment and ideas whenever I could. I also placed books in the church library, such as Equal To Serve and Women In Ministry: Four Views to promote knowledge and understanding. And I also prayed as the church experienced renewal and growth with others. In private I prayed the Holy Spirit would enable men and women to work together in Blessed Alliance.

And over a 15 year period, with the coming of two ECCA pastors trained at North Park Seminary who supported and encouraged men and women working together, it is easier to promote egalitarianism, which I continue to do such as writing an article on the Bible and Women Preachers, giving it to the pastor, and two key teachers with whom I have a good relationship. I hope sharing the rest of my story is hopeful and encouraging, though it does not provide any “quick and easy” way to convert everyone to what we believe is the Gospel Truth.

Comment by Trevor

February 6, 2009 @ 8:15 pm

Thank you Frank, in particular, for sharing your experiences, over many years, and involvement with the ECCA generally up to the present time. It is most insightful and your tenacity, patience and graciousness in confronting opposition while steadily soliciting change is to be admired. This must be very helpful to those seeking fellowship and christian growth in a conservative church movement within the US. As Liz has already mentioned the situation appears to be quite different in Australia and would perhaps vary markedly in civilized societies all around the world. Which, by the way, is interesting because our blog stats reveal that people are checking in here from a considerable number of countries, though not necessarily commenting,

While I resonate strongly with all that is being said by all commenters on this post, I am drawn more particularly to the issue of being a male who should strongly advocate, with other males in leadership, for women – both in the home and in the church. In Australia we seem to have what I call, ‘a conspiracy of silence’ , meaning that people seem reluctant to engage the issue. It is as if it is seen as a non-issue. Australia prides itself in being an egalitarian culture and it is presumed that equality follows within the church. While this may be true in the more theologically liberal churches it is far from the truth in conservative circles. In fact it is seen as more biblical and God honoring to resist what is considered to be, ‘the worldly approach to gender relationships’ and adopt a gender differentiated view of visible role distinction within the church.

This makes it exceedingly difficult because what is then promoted is that to be Godly is to consciously oppose supposed ‘feminist teaching’ and for women to adopt a submissive/passive attitude and for men to assume their God-given leadership responsibility both in the home and the church. This notion is popularised through all of the christian books, marriage seminars on offer and various christian media outlets (fewer than in the US)

What has been sad for us, is to see young couples, who were very free and equal in their courtship relationship, move into structured/gendered roles and responsibilities within marriage. And to see highly gifted, motivated young women surrender their talents both within the home and the church while still employing them in the marketplace, or work environment. The flip side being to see young men who are less capable being urged to take on responsibilities that are way beyond them and would be far better to be shared.

Liz and I know of no church situation in our area where we could automatically slot in and feel totally comfortable and at one with what is being promoted, either from the pulpit or what is the accepted norm within church life. So we identify strongly with those out there in the blogosphere who are finding it difficult and cannot simply change churches and find a more egalitarian one. In Australia some churches think that they are egalitarian but mostly they are a long way from it in actual practice. I’m sure that that will be the case in other places too. While we rejoice in the partial liberty for women, often what passes for egalitarianism is under researched and therefore neither passionate nor convincing but rather a mishmash bordering on tokenism.

Naturally we would want to advocate for change but that is where the ‘conspiracy of silence’ comes in. We are simply ignored. An example: Here in Australia we have a great number of churches who are in the Willow Creek Association. I’m aware that Willow Creek, in their international seminars, make mention of the fact that their church encourages gift based ministry as a more equitable and God honoring ministry model. This model encourages far greater resourcefulness in proclaiming the gospel. I emailed the Australian Willowcreek Association expressing an interest in this kind of ministry model and requested information. No response. Thinking that the email may have gone astray I repeated the exercise. Again, no response. My conclusion is that this is not a part of the Willowcreek experience that Australian churches are interested in duplicating.
This unfortunately, is an often repeated scenario.

Comment by Sonnet

February 6, 2009 @ 8:47 pm

Hierarchy, Divine Rights, and Oppression

Nice Semantics, Misleading Phrases, and Preying Upon the Weakness of Our Minds

Thomas Paine wrote “Common Sense” over 200 years ago to inspire and unite the colonies to throw off the “tender embraces of the mother” country. Parallels between the evils of monarchy and gender hierarchy abound. May that stained-glass window soon shatter, may the pre-Fall unity of marriage be embraced, and may justice and equality be restored between men and women under God.

Here are some excerpts from “Common Sense” by Thomas Paine:
(My musings added)

“MANKIND being originally equals in the order of creation, the equality could only be destroyed by some subsequent circumstance…” (The Fall)

“As the exalting of one man (husbands/men) so greatly above the rest (wives/women) cannot be justified on the equal rights of nature, so neither can it be defended on the authority of scripture; for the will of the Almighty (the two shall become one/ we are all one in Christ), as declared by Gideon and the prophet Samuel, expressly disapproves of government by kings (gender hierarchy). All anti-monarchial parts of scripture have been very smoothly glossed over in monarchial governments, but they undoubtedly merit the attention of countries which have their governments yet to form.”

“And when a man seriously reflects on the idolatrous homage which is paid to the persons of kings (husbands), he need not wonder, that the Almighty, ever jealous of his honour, should disapprove of a form of government (gender hierarchy) which so impiously invades the prerogative of Heaven.”

“Here was temptation in its fullest extent; not a kingdom only, but an hereditary one (based upon your gender); but Gideon in the piety of his soul replied, “I will not rule over you, neither shall my son rule over you. THE LORD SHALL RULE OVER YOU.” Words need not be more explicit; Gideon doth not decline the honor but denieth their right to give it; neither doth he compliment them with invented declarations of his thanks, but in the positive style of a prophet charges them with disaffection to their proper Sovereign, the King of Heaven.”

“To the evil of monarchy we have added that of hereditary succession; and as the first is a degradation and lessening of ourselves, so the second, claimed as a matter of right, is an insult and an imposition on posterity. For all men (people) being originally equals, no one by birth could have a right to set up his own family (gender) in perpetual preference to all others for ever, and though himself might deserve some decent degree of honors of his contemporaries, yet his descendants might be far too unworthy to inherit them.”

“Secondly, as no man at first could possess any other public honors than were bestowed upon him, so the givers of those honors could have no power to give away the right of posterity, and though they might say, “We choose you for our head,” they could not, without manifest injustice to their children, say, “that your children and your children’s children shall reign over ours forever.” Because such an unwise, unjust, unnatural compact might in the next succession put them under the government of a rogue or a fool. Most wise men, in their private sentiments, have ever treated hereditary right with contempt; yet it is one of those evils, which when once established is not easily removed; many submit from fear, others from superstition (false teachings and deception), and the more powerful part shares with the king the plunder of the rest.”

“But it is not so much the absurdity as the evil of hereditary succession which concerns mankind. Did it ensure a race of good and wise men (husbands) it would have the seal of divine authority, but as it opens a door to the FOOLISH, the WICKED, and the IMPROPER, it hath in it the nature of oppression. Men who look upon themselves born to reign (lead; have authority over), and others to obey (submit; follow their decisions), soon grow insolent. Selected from the rest of mankind, their minds are early poisoned by importance; and the world they act in differs so materially from the world at large, that they have but little opportunity of knowing its true interests, and when they succeed to the government are frequently the most ignorant and unfit of any throughout the dominions.”

“The most plausible plea, which hath ever been offered in favor of hereditary succession is, that it preserves a nation from civil wars (decisional impasses in marriages); and were this true, it would be weighty; whereas, it is the most barefaced falsity ever imposed upon mankind. The whole history of England disowns the fact… Wherefore instead of making for peace, it makes against it, and destroys the very foundation it seems to stand upon.” (entitling men to be the leaders and final decision makers in marriage does not help to preserve unity in marriage but instead hinders true relationship and leads to feelings of separation)

“But Britain is the parent country (men are the SERVANT-leader), say some. Then the more shame upon her conduct (wife abuse is statistically much higher in “traditional” hierarchical marriages than in egalitarian marriages)… Wherefore the assertion, if true, turns to her reproach; but it happens not to be true, or only partly so, and the phrase PARENT OR MOTHER COUNTRY (servant-leader or equal in being but unequal in role or function) hath been jesuitically adopted by the King and his parasites, with a low papistical design of gaining an unfair bias on the credulous weakness of our minds. Europe, and not England, is the parent country of America. (God is the leader/ruler not husbands and men) This new World hath been the asylum for the persecuted lovers of civil and religious liberty from EVERY PART of Europe. Hither have they fled, not from the tender embraces of the mother, but from the cruelty of the monster; and it is so far true of England, that the same tyranny which drove the first emigrants from home pursues their descendants still.”

Comment by Liz

February 6, 2009 @ 8:59 pm

Just reading the last 2 comments is a reminder that change takes time. Little by little we can change the mindset just as it has taken centuries to influence the church in general to embrace headship in church and home.

Frank’s mention of changing bible readings to incorporate women and men (or people) when appropriate is one step, as is changing the words of songs where possible from mankind or men (where it means all people) Sometimes this means changing a few words to maintain the rhyme or rhythm but it can be done so those who are new to church music will not be stumbled by gender bias.

On a personal level, I have changed from always writing my husband’s name first to writing mine first to get away from the perception that the husband is the prime person in the relationship to whom all things must be addressed.
Recently I rang to make an appointment for myself at a dental centre and was amazed that in taking details they wanted to know my husband’s name first when he wasn’t even intending to go there. Some things just take ages to die!

I worked for some time in a Christian mailing house for parenting books and was instructed to always write the address with the husband’s name first such as Mr J.Smith & Mrs B Smith and if the only contact was a woman’s name I was supposed to write Mrs…..without checking to see if the mother was married, single or separated. I must admit that I often rang the person to check how they preferred their address to be written and no-one corrected me on this

So many of these things perpetuate the problem but we can make small adjustments and trust they will help people to see things differently…..over time!

Comment by Frank

February 7, 2009 @ 1:27 pm

I was so glad to read the most recent comments by Liz and Trevor. After I finished completing my story, later that night, before going to bed, I was troubled that what I had intended to be an encouragement might have, instead, been a discouragement. And I prayed to the Lord about it. And so now I am relieved that what I shared was encouraging and helpful.

And when I woke up this morning, I found myself thinking about Isa. 61:1-9; 1 Cor. 7:17-35; and 2 Cor. 5:11-21. And I sensed that though things presently appear difficult for egalitarians, we were to consider ourselves the Lord’s Annointed Ones, called to carry on, in word and deed, a prophetic ministry for God’s present and future kingdom that will not only glorify him, but also bring about the redemption and reconciliation of many who are being turned off by complementarian church beliefs and practices.

Here I am thinking, in part, about what Dan Kimball has written, as a minister to what some have called the “emerging generations,” in his “They Like Jesus But Not The Church: Insights From Emerging Generations.”
There are six perceptions of Evangelical Christianity that, whether rightfully or wrongfully, younger Americans, between 18-35 tend to hold:

1. The church is an organized religion with a political agenda.
2. The church is judgmental and negative.
3. The church is dominated by males and oppresses females.
4. The church is homophobic.
5. The church arrogantly claims all other religions are wrong.
6. The church is full of fundamentalists who take the whole Bible literally.

Now it would seem to me that complementarian Christians, whether soft or hard, if serious about evangelizing and discipling the emergent generations, when they read Acts 15, ever consider James advice about setting up obstacles that keep the unbelievers from turning in faith to Christ? And ever consider that, by the emergent generations, they are especially seen as male dominant and oppressive of females? Kimball talks about this in chapter six of his book, where first he quotes statements made by these people, some who once were in church, and yet have left for this very reason. Here is what a young woman, Erika, had to say:

“The church has to understand the feelings of women, and not only what if feels like to be a female in the church but a female in the job marketplace, a female in politics, a female anywhere in a male-dominated society. I can’t imagine that Jesus would not pay a lot of attention to this and make sure the church understands what females feel and respect and honor them.
“America was birthed from a male-dominated European society. So the church is naturally rooted there. However, in our society today, there are steps being made of seeing females as more equal in the job market and other places. So I would certainly think that the church would be doing the same, but it doesn’t seem to be. I have only seen and heard about churches shooting down women who both aspire in their faith and then desire to be in church leadership.
“I am not a feminist or women’s rights advocate! All I am saying is that the church better respect and treat females with equality and dignity for who they are, and allow them to contribute in major ways to the church. What a shame it is for churches to be shaped only by the men, when females have so incredibly much to offer. When I look around, I see only male priests and ministers. If you’re a female, is your only choice to join the Catholic Church and become a nun?”

For complementarian, evangelical Protestants who claim they believe in the priesthood and prophethood of all believers, this is a very challenging statement to their perpetual qualification and limitation of our priesthood and prophethood, simply on the basis of gender. And if there is any book they should read and ponder, it is this one by Kimball.

But in some other ways, complementarians have sown the seeds of their own destruction. Here I am primarily thinking of their deliberate perversion of the Doctrine of the Trinity to support their false doctrine of the permanent subjugation of women. Since I have expressed my view on this more fully elsewhere, all I will say is that, eventually, their degrading of Christ’s equality with the Father will make many of their followers easy prey for JW’s and Mormons. So I think a great future awaits egalitarians, the Lord’s Annointed Ones.

Comment by Frank

February 14, 2009 @ 1:02 pm

After reviewing the last four postings on the Scroll, and thinking and praying about it, I have thought of some other things that egalitarians could do to adequately counteract some of the ways, as Sue pointed out (88614), that complementarians utilize in discrediting our position while promoting their own. What I suggest is not totally new or totally radical; but it is something in addition to and complementary with some of the principles I suggested above.

1. As a prophetic movement calling the whole church to recognize that this is the Age of the Spirit, and that the Spirit, in agreement with the Father and the Son, is the One who gifts and calls both men and women to serve equally as God’s ambassadors, with full and equal authority to promote the concerns of God’s present and future kingdom, such as evangelization, discipleship, and social justice, righteousness, and peace, both in the churches and in our nations. Nothing could be clearer from a study of the Gospel of the Kingdom, as it is set forth in Matthew, Luke and Acts, and the Epistles of Paul. And we know that Satan will do everything he can not only to oppose and hinder us from accomplishing our kingdom tasks, but also everything he can do to cause confusion and division among Christians, for the strategy to divide and conquer your enemy is one of his favorite tactical manuevors. So we must always realize, as others before me have said in this blog, that we are not just struggling with people who disagree with us; we have an Enemy who is doing everything he can to hinder the forward march of the Church and do as much damage to us as he can before Christ returns. Therefore, following the principles of 2 Cor. 6:3-10; 10:2-5; and Eph. 6:10-18, we must engage in constant,determined spiritual warefare. And I think that means, in part, that when CBE holds varous conferences, CBE representatives give important lectures, or produces important literature, the various CBE chapters need special prayer groups that specifically pray that the Spirit will work mightly, that the Gospel of God’s Present and Future Kingdom will triumph, and that the Enemy will be defeated. And I’m sure this is being done; but perhaps we could do better than we are doing?

2. Kevin Giles has written a paper where he outlines the 7 Pillars of Complementarianism. Here they are:
A. Women’s subordinate position is grounded in the so-called “order of creation.”
B. There is profound theological difference between the exhortations to slaves to be subordinate and to women to be subordinate.
C. Prophecy and teaching are very different ministries; women can do the first, but not the second.
D. Only a hierarchical understanding of the man-woman relationship safeguards sexual differentiation.
E. If it is held that major social change can affect how the Bible is interpreted, the surely the acceptance of homosexual marriages and gay clergy must follow.
F. While men and women are equal in being, God has assigned them different roles in the home, church and society.
G. The Eternal Subordination of the Son to the Father is the grounds for the permanent subordination of women to men.

What is needed is a series of phamphlets that adequately explain and refute these erroneous teachings and which egalitarians can use as resources in defending and promoting what we believe is the Gospel truth. And these are just a few things we could do.

Comment by Frank

February 14, 2009 @ 5:34 pm

After coming back from lunch, I noticed some errors in my previous comment (88672) which I missed and so now want to correct. I also want to share some further ideas I had about things we egalitarians could do to spread what we believe is the Gospel truth.

In the paragraph where I describe CBE as a prophetic movement, I had written “As a prophetic movement calling the whole church….” I had meant to write “As a prophetic movement, CBE is calling the whole church….” And in the last paragraph, I mispelled “pamphlets” as “phamphlets”; so I wish to rectify those errors. Now as to some of the other ideas I had:

3. In addition to the pamphlets, I think a 100-200 page book, “The 7 Pillars of Complementarianism Exposed and Refuted” needs to be written as well. Each of the seven chapters exposing and refuting the main arguments made by complementarians would be the work of authors who had expertise knowledge in those topics who would explain the argument, expose the logical fallacies and questionable biblical interpretations involved, and then give a solid presentation of the egalitarian alternatives. This book would not only serve as a reference work, but also as an introductory text for college and seminary students.

4. Perhaps we could produce a booklet or book, “Egalitarians and Their True View of Scripture” that could be readily shared with people to show that the charge that we have a low view of the inspiration and authority of the Bible is false. It could be divided into the following sections:
a. “Their Historical Stance.” Here it would be proved from historical examples that a high view of Scripture has always been the stance of egalitarians. For example, there are Roger Nicole and Gretchen Gaebelien Hull, among the founders of CBE, who were key participants and presenters at various sessions of the Council of Biblical Inerrancy in the 1980′s.
b. “Their Interpretive Methodology.” Here it would be shown that our interpretive methodology is biblically grounded, theologically othodox and sound, and logically consistent and coherent. At least six linguistic/theological principles would be outlined and explained:
1. Scripture has to be understood in terms of its own historical, cultural and literary contexts before the modern interpretor can adequately understand and apply Scripture to modern intellectual, moral, and socio-political issues.
2. When considering any doctrinal, ethical, or social issue, the whole testimony of Scripture must be taken into account. Obscure portions of Scripture must not only be explained by clearer portions, but also with the overall spirit of that total teaching serving as the final arbiter of the correct meaning and application of the particular text being studied.
3. A particular text or portion of Scripture must be interpreted and applied appropriately in accordance with what Scripture, as a whole, says is the main emphasis of this text. For example certain Christians, prior to the American Civil War, used the texts that spoke of Abraham as a man of faith and friend of God who, though a slaveowner, was never condemned for participating in or upholding the institution of slavery. However, the real question they failed to answer was, “Where in Scripture is it stated that it is right to use the life of Abraham to argue for slavery?” There have been Mormons and others who have used the life Abraham, the faithful and honored friend of God as the basis for their practice of concubinage and polygamy. After all, if Abraham and the other Patriarchs did this, apparently with God’s approval why, they argued, can’t we? But the Scripture, as a whole, presents Abraham’s life as example of how God tests our faith and calls us all to a life of steadfastness and perseverence. Arguments for slavery and polygamy, on the basis of God’s supposed approval of everything Abraham did, is an inappropriate interpretation and application of his story.
4. Then there is Messianic Kingdom/New Creation principle. Here the coming of Jesus the Messiah and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon his redeemed people, inaugurates God’s eschatological (present and yet future)kingdom in which the “Blessed Alliance” men and women (Cf. Gen. 1:26-27 and 2:15-25)is restored. Moreover, according to this principle, in the new creation/eschatological kingdom, since both men and women receive “the adoption to sonship,” they are given the full rights and privileges to serve and rule as those of their Elder Brother. And this is also the Age of the Spirit, when the Holy Spirit, in mutual agreement with the Father and the Son, gifts and calls men and women to proclaim the Gospel, help the poor and needy, and contend together as equals against all falsehood, injustice and iniquity in both church and society.

I notice from the clock I will have to stop for today to run some errands; so I will finish my suggestions later.

Comment by Jamie

February 15, 2009 @ 2:43 pm

John Umland (jpu) said:

Why is there a battle if the denominational “marketplace” has enough options for women who feel a call to a ministry withheld from them in some churches? Why not go to the egalitarian churches in their town? Why marry into a denomination that is contrary to their beliefs? Why would an egalitarian bother going to a complementarian church when there are options?
God is good

Any denomination can have their own beliefs (or rules, etc.) regarding women in the ministry.

The problem though is they are calling this “Christianity”, and what it means to be a Christian.

If there are not enough other Christians who disagree and make their beliefs known (including (or maybe especially) to an unbelieving, secular world) then whether right or wrong, the official “stamp” of what it means to be a Christian goes to those who reject women in ministry.

Paul said we are of one Body. What happens to one part of us in another denomination has an effect on the whole precisely because we believe in Christ or at the very least use that name “Christian” to identify ourselves.

Regardless of the denomination — ALL of them have women in them . . . So therefore, as women we are all affected for any one of us may be called upon by God.

The message being sent here is that God wouldn’t call upon a woman to be in the ministry, teach/preach.

That’s a very broad claim afforded to no other group of people in Christianity . . . not any ethnic, social, economic group, etc. But somehow when it comes to women, everything is just “different”.

Having typed all this, of course, it’s the men and women within a particular denomination that must be the primary ones to object to this restriction. That’s where we can lend our support.

No, the glass ceiling is certainly not broken, though progress has been made. Unfortunately, the Church is much slower than the secular world in moving on this issue (of course, everything is relative and not all churches are the same).

We are at a key moment in the Church’s history (even similar to the Reformation for example) where the Body is being challenged to deal with many issues that modernity brings. How the Church in the long run responds to these will determine (I believe) in large part what will be finally taught (whether it’s by a man or a woman).

Sue said:

We need to put our hearts and our money into ministries that give full respect to women.

This is true too! We need to do both: challenge where we see discrimination in the Body and support women in ministry.

Sue also said:

Think of some of the ministries that are out front promoting disrespect for women; especially radio and television ministries. What percentage of their financial support comes from women?

The only reason hierarchalists are succeeding to the extent that they are is because they are being very strategic in how they are handling their maintenance of power.

This true too. All that you’ve said.

They are being very strategic. Along with the identified “Religious Right” they are clearly grasping for power (which of course is a sin) and will do what they can to maintain their status quo hierarchy. This is their theology.

And then they proceed to indoctrinate and pass this along to their children by various means (TV, radio, etc.) They are organized.

And again, this is why it’s so important like you mentioned for the egalitarians to be on the offensive. That’s a sad commentary on the state of affairs, because this isn’t a war — but then again it’s a disagreement over important theological ideas. If your beliefs don’t get heard, they won’t be.

People NEED to hear the Good News of Christ — and this other good news as well, that women so called upon by God to serve in the ministry, can. Why wouldn’t you as a woman serve in leadership? You’re a co-heir! You’ve been adopted!

But if this message is drowned-out, then people may not even be aware that there a is sound, solid, scripturally-based, theological position supporting women in ministry that exists.

Liz said:

You said ” they promote us in that way even when they know it is not true” I would suggest that ‘they’ firmly believe what they are saying is true as complementarians appeal to the bible as the reason for their claims, just as we do. In my experience I have never met complementarians who thought they were deliberately twisting the truth. Maybe you have personal experience of what you stated, otherwise you would be making judgments about other people’s motives which only God can see.

I agree with you that the complementarians (in so many words, my paraphrase here) really do believe their own press . . .

However, I can’t help but think that for at least some of them if they took a long, HARD, look at themselves they would admit that what they believe is totally incongruous with the truth. (And, Jesus IS truth after all (John 14:6)).

They see the secular world and they want the patina of equality because they don’t want to cede the moral high ground — but in practice they reject its substance. They use the language of the world while rejecting the true fundamentals of what equality really means.

How very ironic that the sinful world (and some in it at least are bound for hell) at least as an ideal or a goal knows more about what actual equality means than many in the Church do . . . For shame.

Comment by Frank

February 15, 2009 @ 3:31 pm

Now that I have finished the previous day’s errands and have sufficient time, I will complete my list of things egalitarians could to do to further our understanding of the New Testament vision of men and women being coequals and partners in the New Age inaugurated by the death and resurrection of Jesus our Lord, and by the outpouring of the Spirit on the Church.

I had last suggested the production of a booklet on the “Egalitarian’s View of Scripture,” which first presented a history of the high view of Scripture held by egalitarians, followed with a explanation of six key principles of egalitarian interpretative methodology. Since I have already given four, I will now list the last two principles of interpretation, as I perceive them:

Principle 5: This is what I term as the Typological/Analogical principle. This not only incorporates the traditional view of the relationship between Old and New Testaments as “Promise and Fulfilment,” but also a genuine analogy between key OT persons, events and institutions with the Lord Jesus and his ministry, and the Church and its present mission in the world. In fact, this was the primary hermenuetic perspective of both the OT and NT writers and their respective communities. For example, Israel’s Exodus from Egypt, on different levels, is the basis of the redemptive imagery in Isa.51-52 and of the NT concepts of salvation and judgment in 1 Cor. 10:1-6 and Jude 5.

Principle 6: This is what I term as the Pneumatic/communal principle. According to this principle, the Holy Spirit’s teaching and guiding ministry did not end with the death of the Apostles and the completion of the New Testament canon. He continues to be, as the Scriptures’ Ultimate Author, its Ultimate Interpretor. In agreement with the Lord Jesus Christ, the Church’s Head, the Spirit raises up leaders in the Church, both men and women, who are called to be church planters, preachers, evangelists, and pastor-teachers (cf. 1 Cor. 12:1-11 and Eph. 4:7-13). They are what we might call first among equals (cf. Matt. 23:5-12 and 1 Pet. 5:1-4), whose responsibility is not only to nurture believers and bring them to full maturity in Christ, but also to equip them for “works of ministry”–i.e., evangelism, apologetics, discipleship, and social aid to the poor and marginalized of society. This is the pneumatic aspect of the principle, while the communal aspect involves the congregation, by the Word and the Spirit, testing and judging what is set forth by the teachers and preachers (cf. Acts 17:10-12; 1 Thess. 5:19-22; and 1 John 4:1).
Moreover, in accordance with this principle, as regards controversial issues, the elders, both men and women (cf. Titus 1:5-2:5) who have mentored and trained the congregations, must come together for earnest, soul-searching prayer, careful and thorough study of the whole teaching of Scripture on the issue being contested, with honest and civil discussion, depending on the Holy Spirit, as the Divine Author and Interpreter of Scripture, to bring all to a unified and satisfactory understanding of what the true doctrine is and how it is to be best applied (cf. Acts 15:7-29). And after all the concerns and issues of the disputing parties involved have been given full and fair consideration, apart from any humiliation, censorship or coercion of one party by another, it then has to be presented and accepted by the congregations (cf. Acts 15:7-29). And it was this principle that the Council of Nicea followed in settling the Christological and Trinitarian disputes of its day. But it is probably the hardest principle for Christians to really grasp and consistently follow.

And following this section, the third and final section would be “case test” of, say 1 Cor. 14:33-34, where following these princinciples, would be the sufficiency and insufficiency of the complementarian and egalitarian explanations of this text.

Well, I have written three, rather long comments that suggest various things we egalitarians could do to proclaim, defend, and confirm to be what we hold is the truth of Christ’s Gospel of the Kingdom. And that is what they are suggestions, not demands. So I hope they will be of some value, if only to stimulate others to come up with better suggestion. So thank-you for letting me share them.

Comment by Sue

February 15, 2009 @ 3:36 pm

Thank you for your suggestions, Frank. I’m looking forward to what more you have to say. And I appreciate your comments, Jamie.

It is true change takes time, but it is also true that change won’t happen without action to bring it about. Did the abolitionists and the suffragettes wait for change, or did they make it happen?

Those of us who live in free Western cultures live in cultures that believe that patriarchy is unjust. Our culture supports us. CBMW is as successful as it is not because they are so strong, but because our side is so feeble.

I hear egalitarians lament that there is no end in sight to gender hierarchy, particularly in light of the fact that many Christian young people hold to these beliefs in spite of the fact that we live in a culture that does not support sexism.

I’ve spent quite a bit of time listening to the audio messages at CBMW. In listening to their messages, I’ve come to realize that they see this as a war, and it is a war they must win. They meet, communicate, collaborate, and strategize on how to go about winning this war in light of an egalitarian culture.

It’s no accident that some of the best known ministries, such as Focus on the Family and Family Life Today, have messages on the unilateral submission of women every month or so. Their leaders are collaborators with CBMW, and they agreed to use this method to promote their message. Sometimes they do it as a book promotion; sometimes they sandwich the message into another series topic and make submission a part of that topic; but the message is there on a regular basis.

It’s no accident that many Christian young people are coming into adulthood believing in gender hierarchy more than ever. The CBMW leaders have agreed on promoting the importance of making sure that youth group leaders take time to teach gender hierarchy to the youth so this message of gender hierarchy does not die out.

On one of their CBMW audio messages in particular, they spoke about the importance of pastors meeting with new families to their churches as soon as possible to teach new Christians about gender hierarchy. They agreed on the importance of pastors having periodic sermons on gender hierarchy.

When they held the “True Women ‘08” conference, it was promoted on multiple national radio shows, on the web, and in magazines.

The CBMW leaders keep close tabs on what the egalitarians say and do and they come out with a response immediately to counteract what we say and do.

In all their marketing mediums, they promote their message over and over: they say they teach biblical truth; egalitarians don’t.

CBMW is successful at promoting egalitarians as people who don’t respect the Bible, as people who don’t believe in any differences between the sexes, as liberals, or as any of the other stereotypes because we are not effectively countering what they are doing.

How many Christians have ever heard an egalitarian talk from the heart? Or even heard what egalitarians truly believe from those of us who believe it? There is no face or voice to our message. People who are taught that we are evil or heretics have never heard from us to realize what the truth about us really is.

I believe the CBMW handles this disagreement between us as a war, and they strategize and plan their battles as though they must win. We can choose to pretend it isn’t so, but it will cost us.

The Egalitarian cause has intelligent, educated, talented, and gifted men and women with a passion for what’s right for both men and women on our side. We are writers, speakers, teachers, public relations professionals, artists, musicians, and on and on. I believe that if we were to go on the offensive and be strategic in our actions, gender hierarchy in the church would be exposed and eliminated within a decade. Our cultures support our cause.

What did the abolitionists and suffragettes do?

Comment by Trevor

February 17, 2009 @ 5:19 am

Wow Sue, ‘them’s fightin’ words!’

You are so right. That last paragraph says it all. Yes,”… we do have intelligent, educated, talented and gifted men and women with a passion for what’s right for both men and women on our side.” Yes, “…we are writers, speakers, teachers, public relations professionals, artists, musicians, and on and on.”

Yes, we do have all of those things and it would seem as if we are not on the offensive enough because we seem to have little to show for our efforts. The problem with the argument that ‘culture is on our side’ is that it provides exactly the right kind of ammunition to feed the war machine of the CBMW people. They see 21st century culture as the enemy and believe that we egalitarians are more swayed by culture than scripture.

You are also right in saying that people are taught (by overt, or covert CBMW practices) that we are evil, or heretics. This is what makes it difficult for us, no matter how skilled or proactive we are. We somehow have to show up the incorrectness and ungodliness of their accusations. For that, it would seem to me, we need God to intervene, perhaps by having some leading exponent of the complementarian or CBMW cause ‘see the light’ and expose the movement for what it truly is. Even though many of us see what is going on we cannot stoop to the same ungodly tactics to make our point.

While the abolition of slavery and the right for women to vote etc. is a given in most civilized cultures it was a hard battle and it took many years to enact laws that would overturn these evils. William Wilberforce was a key figure in the abolition of slavery and it took almost his entire life-time to see his dream realized. It took years of consciousness raising to change societal norms.

What I’m saying is that we shouldn’t beat ourselves up too much over the slow progress of making the case for biblical equality. A lot is being done, but it is either largely ignored as irrelevant to the primary need to proclaim the gospel, maligned and sidelined as an ungodly and unbiblical interpretation of scripture that capitulates to the world.

The facts are that complementarians presently have control, worldwide, of the majority of the christian literature and media outlets. Unless something happens from within, like the conversion of Saul on the road to Damascus, that causes people in high places to question these things, very little is likely to change. So we need that kind of intervention from God.

At present all that we egalitarians do seems to add fuel to their fire and serves to convince them that they are right in opposing us. They can overturn the best of our arguments by the use of a few strategic, emotive words that cause bells of alarm to go off in the minds of the uninformed. Somehow we need to get around these ‘trigger words’ and help people to see beyond this to the higher view of scripture and Christlike living that we are espousing.

Comment by Leigh

February 17, 2009 @ 9:56 am

Yes! This is what I struggle with (from Trevor’s latest post) “…A lot is being done, but it is either largely ignored as irrelevant to the primary need to proclaim the gospel, maligned and sidelined as an ungodly and unbiblical interpretation of scripture that capitulates to the world.”

It’s not seen as an integral part of the Gospel: what Christ has done for women. Whether through his death, or during his life–both, actually.

I’m one of those people about whom you speak, Sue, although I’ve got so much going on in my head whenever I try to write on this topic that I find my words just tumble out over each other in a rush, and what I have “written” falls quite short, IMO. I’m happiest helping others write, through my gifting as an editor. I’m certainly driven to get the word out, though…I don’t know how.

I wish that people would understand that as long as it is preached that God wants only a limited place in his church for women, the Gospel itself is being compromised. This issue concerns nothing less than the character of God.

What sort of God would create two types of beings, different from each other and yet completely equal with one another (talk about the mind-boggling ways of God–he can *accomplish* “different but equal”!), and then limit the ways one of the groups can use their gifts? What kind of God would then say to the group that is completely equal yet whose gifts he limits, “…and members from that group over there are to lead you, your entire lives.” ??

Comment by Sarah

February 17, 2009 @ 7:44 pm

Despite appearances, I think there has been movement in the right direction. I’m not exactly an expert, but in the almost two decades I’ve been an egalitarian it seems that there are more outspoken egalitarians out there than ever before, and I’ve seen comp’s willing to positively engage them. There may be more moderate/soft comp’s as well. There’s more good information available. Cbmw et.al. may be fighting harder than ever, and comp organizations and teachers may be closing ranks and hardening their rhetoric – but that indicates to me they feel their position may be losing ground. It’s a shame that so many in the pews only hear one side of the story and are recruited to battle against brothers and sisters they’ve been told are the enemy.

Comment by Sarah

February 17, 2009 @ 8:08 pm

Some things I think might help: We are very good at debating/promoting theology, and we can’t stop growing in this area. However, most Christians aren’t theologians. They need to see real-life examples and practical guidance – particularly in the area of marriage. Egalitarian relationship books are really needed. Most people have a hard time shaking preconceived ideas. Egal’s have defended themselves repeatedly against charges of cultural accommodation and theological liberalism, and they have to keep doing so. However, if we want to win fellow Biblical conservatives, we need to show which team we’re on without doubt. We don’t have to sacrifice a prophetic voice or completely mold ourselves to extrabiblical american evangelical cultural norms, but we need to show our commitment to biblical authority. I agree w/ Trevor; appealing to culture undermines us. We need to be critiquing culture and offering a clear alternative to the secular mess out there. We have that alternative and we should be shouting it out.

Comment by jlp

February 17, 2009 @ 8:45 pm

Honestly I think the hard core complimentarians are the ones influenced by culture. If you study the justifications for the entitlements of class in the US and Europe for the last couple of centuries you will see a lot of those justifications popping up in hard comp literature. Not only that, but the porn industry is very much into male dominance and female submission.

Comment by Trevor

February 17, 2009 @ 8:49 pm

Thanks Leigh for your additional comments. I don’t want to take anything away from Sue. What she is saying is right on the money. We need to be as proactive as is possible, for the reasons also that you have stated so clearly. However, in our experience, no matter how compelling our arguments appear to be, from scripture and life examples (both positive and negative), they fall on deaf ears.

The bottom line for any from the ‘traditional’ background is that, to them, any talk of a biblically based equality is seen as compromising scripture. While for us, to NOT have gift based ministry opportunity, seems to denigrate God’s character and nullify the full redemption of the gospel, for them it’s anathema. We have to respect their conscience, where it is a matter of conscience.

What is most disturbing to me is that hierarchical teaching is now being embraced by serious minded young christians as the most God honoring way to do both church and marriage. Many are abandoning the freedoms that they formerly enjoyed, of courtship and marriage within an egalitarian culture, for the popularized teachings of the current wave of hierarchically based christian literature and DVD seminar materials on relationships. It would seem to me that they have taken this on board so wholeheartedly because they have never heard, or seen demonstrated, the true essence of biblical equality.

The other point that I would like to make is that our target area for propagating biblical equality remains with those who are disenchanted former comps, folks who have, or are suffering through the abuses of comp teaching, or those who, like Liz and I, have never been comfortable with believing that that is how God ordained relationships between the sexes. In respect to all of the above our efforts of enlightenment and exhortation are food for the soul.

I don’t think that we are going to win over the complementarian bloc by the power of persuasive argument, no matter how sound and convincing it appears to be to us. The battle lines are clearly set and they will continue to use emotive language and trigger words to nullify our efforts. We will continue to be seen, by them, as the enemy, which is sad, because we could be fighting the powers of real, not just perceived, evil together.

Therefore, our greatest area of proactive effort should be in getting alongside those who are struggling with this whole idea of hierarchy. Somehow we need to be reaching these people. Our message is incredibly liberating. It’s at the very heart of the gospel. It is the Jesus way and countless hurting and enslaved people need to be hearing this aspect of God’s good news. How to do it better? Here we cannot minimize the power and place of prayer in seeking God to intervene powerfully in what we believe to be a just cause and one that brings more glory to His Name as we, by His grace, practice biblical equality.

Comment by jlp

February 17, 2009 @ 8:58 pm

We live in a porn saturated culture. Porn is all about female submissiveness/subjugation to male dominence. It dominates our culture. So saying that egals are adopting the culture by espousing equality between men and women doesn’t deal with the fact that the major influence in the relations between men and women (porn) espouses female submission to male dominance.

Comment by Sarah

February 17, 2009 @ 9:08 pm

We have to take the high road in debates. We have been unfairly maligned; we should be bending over backwards to avoid returning the favor. Many comp Christians want to serve God and believe gender hierarchy is the only way to do so. They may have sacrificed much to mold their lives (and thinking) to this standard. Accusing them of selfish motives only reinforces the belief that they are under attack by enemies of the faith. Finally, we need to make leaders who aim inflammatory accusations at egals defend what they say. Slippery slope to accepting homosexuality? What about all the cultures adopting such behavior because of strict gender differentiation? Goddess worship? Isn’t that the result of inappropriately spiritualizing sexuality? Cultural accommodation – say, isn’t comp’ism more suspect here as patriarchy has been the default since the fall? Can pervasive secular patriarchy be evidence for one position when modern secular feminism supposedly counts against the other?

Comment by Trevor

February 17, 2009 @ 9:33 pm

Wow, isn’t technology wonderful! While I was busy writing my last comment these fabulous ones from Sarah and JLP have come in. I agree with both of you that we have, as egalitarians, a great deal to offer in this matter of rightly defining the place of culture. I agree with you too that the comps are more influenced by culture than they realize and that we are in a far better position to critique it.

A glaring example would be that while civilized culture generally is moving more toward egalitarianism as an accepted societal norm it is also spawning the cult of individualism. This is totally unbiblical. While we always need to protect and champion the rights of the disenfranchised and assist them to be elevated in status we do not do so at the expense of the need for interdependence.

An integral part of the gospel is ‘we-ism’ as opposed to ‘me-ism.’ Our culture tells us that it’s all about me. The gospel, on the other hand, says that it’s all about us. Restoring a right relationship with God (vertically) compels us to want a right relationship with one another (horizontal). That’s basic stuff.

Society, because it is so often powered by personal aggrandisement, cannot achieve that. That’s where I think that some of the current comp literature errs, because it does focus on me, particularly when it concerns what males, supposedly, want out of life. (eg. a good looking woman on the arm etc.)

As egalitarians we are more concerned about men and women as people in their own right, rather than primarily as sexual beings or sexual objects to be used by one another. We try to value the person intrinsically and thus avoid stereotypes or roles that may condemn a person to being forced to be what they personally are not.

We believe this to be biblically warranted in the ‘one anothers’ of scripture. By considering one another we leave room to recognise in one another gifts and abilities that are not necessarily tied in to, or demanded of that gender. This is, to my mind, an integral part of the freedom that the gospel brings to the table.

Comment by Sarah

February 17, 2009 @ 9:37 pm

I’ve got to admit it can be pretty discouraging to see the negativity and false teaching in the church, but I know God is still active, and his timing is always perfect. This is one battle of many. I have it on good authority that truth wins out in the end ;-). Until then, we are called to live truth and seek truth in a very imperfect world. I think we egals have a great opportunity to reach across the divide to comps and do everything in our power to reinforce our common bond in the One who is Truth. Even if some won’t come alongside, the effort alone is worth it. And while it would be lovely if Ware or Grudem or Piper saw the light, I think the real power and opportunity are in the grassroots, among all the ordinary Christians who want to serve God and may very likely be more open to re-examining presuppositions in light of good evidence and more responsive to fellow believers, who, while exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit and showing a sincere love for Christ, point to biblical equality.

Comment by Trevor

February 17, 2009 @ 9:39 pm

Yep, your last point Sarah is a great one too, and deserves to be really teased out. But I’ve got to stop!!! I have to be somewhere else right now.

Comment by jlp

February 17, 2009 @ 9:43 pm

I don’t think there is anything wrong with mentioning that the major cultural factor between men and women is porn, and that it is based on female submission to men. It’s a fact of life. We have to deal with life exactly as it is. The major factor between men and women in the harder traditionalist view is also based on female submission to men. It is what it is. We can’t solve problems unless we all the issues that relate to it.

Comment by jlp

February 17, 2009 @ 9:44 pm

My last sentence I left out some words. I should have said:

We can’t solve problems unless we deal with all the issues that relate to it.

Comment by jlp

February 17, 2009 @ 10:14 pm

Trevor,

Egalitarianism is being accepted by the broader culture. But in terms of male-female relationships I think things are going the other way due to the acceptance of porn.

Comment by Sarah

February 17, 2009 @ 10:16 pm

Trevor – amen (and thanks for the kind words :-)). I think one of the greatest dangers for Christians in these debates is losing the big picture. Because this is a danger for both sides, and because we egals are often accused of capitulating to modern culture, I think that we, paradoxically, may be in the position of strength when it comes to confronting culture. When we boldly stand and shine light on the shallowness and emptiness of our individualistic culture, and clearly give (live!) the Biblical alternative – love, unity, submission to the God who made each individual for something so much greater – we lead in sharing Christ with those who need him and show fellow believers what real biblical egal’ism is all about. We best serve truth by setting our egal’ism amidst the “basics” of love, unity, service, humility, etc. I’m not naive enough to think this swiftly brings roses and sunshine, but it seems to be the way God gets things done.

Comment by jlp

February 17, 2009 @ 10:17 pm

Trevor,

It is so encouraging when a man like you (and Frank and others)understands and believes in Biblical Equality. It makes me, as a woman, feel more human. Thanks so much for all your support.

Comment by Sue

February 18, 2009 @ 12:34 am

I agree that there are many gender hierarchalists who will ever be so. My personal concern is for the many people who have been hurt by Christian patriarchy or those who have heard about Christian patriarchy so do not want to consider being a Christian because of it. So many people don’t know what we’re about and have never even heard an egalitarian voice. We have so many wonderful ways to communicate in 2009! Shouldn’t we be using them all?

I’ve read and heard enough CBMW stuff to know about their accusations towards us, particularly in regards to culture. But when we do not use the culture as a resource, aren’t we limiting ourselves unnecessarily?

CBMW should not define for us what resources we should use!

I walked into our local national chain grocery store and there was a book rack of Christian books. On it were several books about Christian marriage—all of which presented gender hierarchy as the only Godly way.

Who’s using the culture?

I walked into my local mall’s Borders bookstore. On the shelf was “The Excellent Wife” by Martha Peace with four chapters on submission, including instructions to women that submission means in everything, including how the wife wears her hair!

Now, who’s using the culture?

During the election season, Dr. James Dobson was on every radio and television show that would have him on. During these mainstream media interviews, he was able to promote his ministry.

When Mike Huckabee (a former Baptist pastor, by the way) was governor of Arkansas, he courageously signed the full page ad in the 8-26-98 edition of USA Today saying wives should graciously submit to their husbands. Ten years later while running for President of the US, he was asked about this during a Presidential debate. Did he courageously reiterate his complementarian beliefs? No! What he said was a very carefully worded statement: “it comes from a passage of Scripture in the New Testament book of Ephesians, is that as wives submit themselves to the husbands, the husbands also submit themselves, and it’s not a matter of one being somehow superior over the other. It’s both mutually showing their affection and submission as unto the Lord.”

Think about it–really think about it–what made Huckabee backpeddle from his courageous complementarian statement a decade ago and suddenly sound like he believes in mutual submission—-just like us???

Think about this too–And why was there no outcry from complementarian leaders denouncing Huckabee for backpeddling from biblical truth?

Who is using the culture?

What! Every possible media resource is available to them, and not to us?

Sure, some Christian outlets are shut off from us. For instance, my local Christian bookstore won’t carry egalitarian materials. But the mall bookstore will, and the grocery store will!

And some Christian radio stations won’t carry egalitarian messages. But last summer when Kevin Giles came to my hometown to speak at my church, I was able to arrange an interview for him on the Christian radio station during their Christian talk show, and he promoted his speaking engagement and his book. Aren’t there other Christian stations who would do the same?

Is it wrong when the other side uses the mainstream media outlets available in our culture to advance their position?

No. What is wrong is the idea of them intimidating us from not using resources God has given to us. It is wrong to allow them to define our resources for us.

We live in a culture with unparalleled radio, television, print, and electronic communication. We have good news to tell! Doesn’t the Bible say we should spread the word to anyone who will listen, and if we aren’t received, we should shake the dust off our feet and move on?

CBE has gifted theologians and they have worked hard to educate us. But eventually, the students leave the school house and go apply what they learned in the real world. Egalitarian women are gifted and educated!

Aim high! Dream big!

Comment by Sarah

February 18, 2009 @ 1:30 am

Sue, absolutely nothing wrong with using the tools of our culture :-). And nothing wrong with giving culture credit for what it does right. I’m just concerned that we are clear that we aren’t basing our beliefs on cultural dictates. Contemporary concern for the individual and human rights owes a lot to the faithful work of Christians in the past, like Wilberforce. Even good things go wrong when not submitted to God, and our culture is bearing some terrible fruit. Jlp has highlighted one – porn. We always have to keep our foundation true. I’m glad you were able to get Giles on Christian radio. We need more chances to share like this to break through! Over time I’ve seen more than one opportunity for egals to share with other believers, but we really need to pray and work for more (and be ready to move when the door opens!).

Comment by Liz

February 18, 2009 @ 2:34 am

Thanks Sue for those ideas – we need to network and get some concrete ideas happening. One way is to form a CBE chapter in your area with a few like-minded people and then together plan some strategies.

In our local area I asked about getting egalitarian books on the shelves and I was told that in order for this to happen, people had to ask for the titles! How are people going to ask for the books when they don’t know they exist? It was almost like they expected me to pretend I didn’t know that the book wasn’t there and then if I asked for it they may get it in. If I had done that, I would have had to buy a lot of books and no-one else would have seen them anyway!

I went to a booksellers convention with a stand of CBE books and only two people came near and made conversation. One person took a leaflet about CBE and the other made sure I knew she was from a conservative group in the country.

I also rang the largest Christian bookshop in Australia which has outlets in every state and asked how they ordered their books. I was told that they mostly order whatever is selling in America. So in that instance, it is all about profit and is more a business than a Christian service. It is so frustrating to see the proliferation of complementarian books on offer – so much more than a few years ago.

In Australia it would be very rare for a newsagent to sell Christian books unless they were very low key books with lots of pictures if you know what I mean.
So…how to get Christians aware of the wonderful egalitarian books available ?
I guess it is still the old-fashioned ‘word of mouth’ way of taking opportunities when talking with people, lending them our books and magazines and telling them about egalitarian websites. We got started with CBE by buying a cheap book on the clearance counter of a large bookshop and writing to the author who put us in touch with CBE and I know that the people at CBE have many similar stories to tell.

We have often thought of writing to all the churches in our area and offering to talk with the elders, run a seminar etc. to discuss the issue of biblical equality so maybe we should just do it!! We have contacted bible colleges a few years ago, offering to run a course but there wasn’t much interest shown.

It is a matter of being proactive in a gentle, humble way but as has already been said, many people get defensive and troubled when approached and close the door firmly against us and our message. We have preferred to remain friends with people rather than getting them offside, but maybe sometimes we should be a bit more forthright.

Comment by Liz

February 18, 2009 @ 2:40 am

Another little thing I have done is photocopy some short articles on topics relating to equality and I have copies of them in a file, ready for when people ask about particular verses etc. I haven’t used this a lot, but it is ready!

Oh yes..I also wrote to all the bookshops which get their books from an association in Australia which carries many egalitarian books. I enclosed a current list of CBE’s books and suggested they might like to put some on their shelves. I didn’t get any replies so have no idea how that letter was received.

The church our son pastors has a bookshop with all the current complementarian books on relationships and gender differences and I thought of ringing the admin. person (whom I know) to ask about stocking some CBE books but decided it may cause our son difficulties as the church is yet to embrace equality fully and is still inclined to male headship in the home if not at church. This is typical of the need to tread carefully with this issue so as to not damage relationships which hopefully will eventually lead to opportunities for discussion.

Comment by Frank

February 18, 2009 @ 3:01 pm

Wow! So many good ideas, I don’t know what more I could add to the suggestions Sue, Sarah, Liz and Trevor have put forth in their recent comments. However, since I last made a comment (88680), I have read and reread some things which have motivated me to seek, with God’s help, to do more to promote the message of God’s Present and Future Kingdom, which I believe we all are doing because our coequal partnership in ministry and leadership is a key element of that Gospel. And if I may, I want to briefly share how I think God has been dealing with me.

For the last week or so, I have been reading through and meditating on Isaiah 40-55. Today’s reading and meditation was on Isa. 52:13-53:12, the Suffering Servant of the Lord; a moving passage to anyone with a sensitive heart for the Lord Jesus and what he did for us by his death on the cross. And as I thought on this passage, I remember a life purpose statement I had written after our church had gone through Rick Warren’s THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE:

My life purpose is to lovingly obey my Lord Jesus Christ; to grow in my spritual union with him; to truly and effectively serve him in and through his church; to faithfully and earnestly proclaim, defend and confirm the Gospel Faith, in accordance with how God has gifted and trained me; as the Holy Spirit enables me, to promote truth, justice, righteousness and peace everywhere I can and with everyone I can, in accordance with the intellectual, moral, and socio-political implications of Christ’s Gospel; and, as much as is possible, lead family, friends and others to do the same.

After pondering that, I then turned to Paul’s words on what it meant to be a true messenger of Christ and to be an ambassador of God’s Present and Future Kingdom. Here are Paul’s, as I read them in the New Living Translation this morning, and which impressed me:

Because we understand our fearful responsibility to the Lord, we work hard to persuade others. God knows we are sincere, and I hope you know this, too. Are we commending ourselves to you again? No, we are giving you a reason to be proud of us, so you can answer those who brag about having a spectacular ministry rather than having a sincere heart. If it seems we are crazy, it is to the glory of God. And if we are in our right mind, it is for your benefit. Either way, Christ’s love controls us. Since we believe that Christ died for all, we also believe that we have died to our old life. He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them…
[Therefore] we live in such a way that no one will stumble because of us, and no one will find fault with our ministry. In everything we do, we show we are true ministers of God. We patiently endure troubles and hardships and calamities of every kind…We prove ourselves by our purity, our understanding, our patience, our kindness by the Holy Spirit, and by our sincere love. We faithfully preach the truth. God’s power is working in us. We use weapons of righteousness in the right hand for attack and the left hand for defense. We serve God whether people honor us or despise us, whether they slander us or praise us…Our hearts ache, but we always have joy. We are poor, but we give spiritual riches to others. We own nothing, and yet we have everything (2 Cor. 5:11-15, 6:3-10).

So as I meditated and prayed on these things, I asked the Lord to forgive where I had failed as his messenger and ambassador, while also asking that by means of the Spirit he would grant me the wisdom, love, power, self-discipline and holy determination I needed to do better in the future. And then I resolved that I would continue to write essays, articles and pamphlets for CBE, Jon Zens, or anyone else who would accept and print them as true, good and useful in furthering the Lord’s kingdom purposes in both the Church and the World. And I also am thinking about contancting some good friends who are now professors at Gordon-Conwell at Charlotte, NC-one who is a psychologist and marital therapist and the other a former missionary and seminary professor in Brazil, who won a book award for a systematic theology text now widely used there–and see what they would be able and willing to do to add to the needed literary sources egalitarians would find helpful. (Pray about that for me, okay?)

Lastly, because I believe that “the priesthood of all believers” is both biblical and practical, I consider you all as my community of brothers and sisters, to inspire me to greater things for our Lord and his Kingdom, by your knowledge of Scripture and possession of Spirit-given wisdom, to keep me balanced and not to get too big for my breeches, to counsel me and rebuke should I ever be tempted to be anything more than a minister of Christ and his Word, or to be a master over, rather than a good and faithful servant, of God’s people. And may God enable me to do the same for others. Amen!

Comment by Liz

February 18, 2009 @ 6:05 pm

Thanks for sharing those scriptures Frank – it is a wonderful reminder that how we relate to other people from a pure heart towards God is what God requires and that the fruit will come as we obey.

May you have many opportunities to use your ability with words and see God give you your heart’s desire (Psalm 37) as it surely resonates with his desires for his children everywhere.

Comment by Sue

February 21, 2009 @ 10:55 am

Wow, Liz, you’ve worked so hard and have so many good ideas! And Frank has so much wisdom to share!

Egalitarians have so many talented and gifted people in their ranks. We need to be able to tap into those who have marketing and sales and public relations and strategic planning knowledge who could give some guidance as far as getting the word out. This is a hard thing for one person to do on his/her own, as you have demonstrated, Liz. It would be great if we could unite, pool resources, and strategize.