The CBE Scroll

Comment by PS(anafter-thought)

February 18, 2009 @ 8:37 am

Since what you mentioned isn’t in my frame of reference, this has never occurred to me before. But it makes sense. We learn from what is valued in our homes. We think what is in our home is “normal” because it just isn’t questioned. I’ve always wondered why there isn’t more condemnation among feminists for the women who take part in this activity, but your reasoning shows that those women have been raised to value this view of women.

Comment by Sarah H

February 18, 2009 @ 11:24 am

One of the first things we need to do as Christians, in my opinion, is to establish a really strong theology of the body that brings emphasis back to God’s love for the enfleshed human beings he created. This needs to walk that fine line between our culture’s idolization of bodies (of a certain kind), and the unfortunate legacy of dualistic Christian thought that denigrates the flesh. It’s time to stop being Gnostics and learn to love our bodies as God’s gift.

Once we establish that bodies are, in fact, gifts from God and that all people–men and women, old and young, of all races, of all economic classes, of all abilities–are in fact made in the image of God, then how can we continue to view any body as an object?

Pornography is a terrible and dangerous disease in our culture, and that’s something that both Evangelical Christians and many feminists (i.e. Naomi Wolf, author of The Beauty Myth) can agree on. Thanks for blogging this.

Comment by historyloveralways

February 18, 2009 @ 1:37 pm

It breaks my heart to see teenage girls thinking their value as human beings is in their body being sexually pleasing to men.

In addition I have been with little girls who want to take off their clothes in imitation of what they percieve our culture values in feminity.

Even adult women place their value in their sexual appearance instead of their inner person.

Our culture doesn’t do this to men or boys, just women and girls.

Comment by jlp

February 18, 2009 @ 3:19 pm

The major way women and girls get (supposedly) positive in our society is by dressing in a sexual manner. As a result women and girls find themselves competing against other females to be the most sexually attractive.

All humans look for positive attention. When females see our society giving the most attention to the ones who are dressed in the most sexually stimulating manner, they desire to dress that way also to get the attention.

Comment by jlp

February 18, 2009 @ 3:20 pm

As usual I left a word out. The first line of my previous post should have been as follows:

The major way women and girls get (supposedly) positive ATTENTION in our society is by dressing in a sexual manner

Comment by mathladyX2

February 18, 2009 @ 3:30 pm

There was a show on at one time, I don’t if it is still on. It was called something like “How to love yourself naked” and it was for women. The host said, women hate how they look naked. My take on that is that women hate how they look naked because in our society their main value is in how they look when they are naked in front of men. In other words, their value is the sexual pleasure their bodies give to men.

Comment by Jewel

February 18, 2009 @ 9:56 pm

Great post. I agree that pornography harms women and children. Pornography is just an extreme subset of a very anti-woman advertising media. From a young age, girls are taught that they are the sum of their parts. The results are far reaching, encompassing anorexia and many other ills.

Comment by Charis

February 18, 2009 @ 10:06 pm

The effect of such exposure in my youth trained me for victimization and rendered me a gullible weak willed easily controlled woman “always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth”.

“But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 2 Timothy 3:1-6

The abusers “have a form of godliness but deny its power” and their female victims are “always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth”. I was one of those gullible controlled women. I learned and learned, I listened to sermons, read books, heard advice…. but-like the women described- did not come to knowledge of the TRUTH. Instead I became more and more bound. The TRUTH shall set you FREE!

Comment by Anca

February 19, 2009 @ 5:53 am

When I was in my early teens my best friend told me that she found her father’s pornography stash. She said it made her feel exposed in his eyes even if he never abused her sexually. Knowing that he looked at women in that way made her feel like he also thought that of her, if that makes any sense. She felt like her innocence was taken from her that day. It’s ironic though, because since she told me that, I have noticed her struggle with anorexia for the last 12 years. She has even said she is afraid her husband would leave her if she gained any weight. When I asked her if he said anything of that nature, she said no, but that she knows that secretly all men really want a size two woman. I think this mentality all stems from the pornography she found in her father’s bedroom so long ago.

I have yet another friend whose grandfather was a pastor and would always put the women “in their place” through his preaching. Yet during the week he would get together with some of the elders from the church and watch pornography in the basement. They even had the nerve to bring along their daughters and granddaughters thinking they were too young to know what they were doing. They never touched the little girls, and till this day my friend still questions why they even took them along. She can still remember the way the men would laugh and talk about the women’s bodies in the “movie.”

Comment by Liz

February 19, 2009 @ 6:49 am

Without minimising for one minute the enormous harm done to women and girls through pornography, it also pollutes men and boys who then in turn treat the women and girls in their life in a damaging way.

It is abhorrent to hear people say that God has made men that way as if they are only partly responsible for their lusts and actions. However..all these men were little boys at one time and were exposed to material which awakened such interest.

It reminds us how important it is to have a healthy view of human bodies – the balance between sanctity and freedom (as Sarah said above) Once again, the Christian media and bookshops have a plethora of gender specific material which almost excuses the use of pornography in many cases.

Another way in which women and girls are damaged is that there is often a conspiracy of silence in sexual matters among church people and when couples marry there is no-one to turn to when things are not wholesome in their relationship. Women are ashamed to talk about things, thinking it must somehow be their fault.

Comment by Liz

February 19, 2009 @ 6:51 am

I’m aware that we know the problems so well. What are the answers?

Sarah has given us one. Maybe there are some good resources available ?

Comment by Anca

February 19, 2009 @ 7:24 am

Liz,

I have heard so many times from different Christian leaders, that men can’t really help it, because God made males in that way. It does almost excuse them from full responsibility. Some have even said that it is our job as females to protect them from it because they can’t help it, it’s natural for them to do that! Many times when a man is addicted to pornography, they blame the wife, and say it is mainly because she was not meeting his needs by being adventurous enough in the bedroom. This is so far fetched from the teaching of Jesus.

Comment by historyloveralways

February 19, 2009 @ 8:08 am

I’m concerned that the culture of pornography has influenced the Christian community in the way it values women. Women are seen first and foremost as existing solely for men and their interests. Sex is considered the most important right men have, and women are expected to fulfill it – no manner how degrading they find it. After all, the women in porn don’t mind being totally dominated and degraded – so why should any other women.

I think we need to examine the effect the culture of pornography has on the Christian community’s attitudes towards women.

Comment by Charis

February 19, 2009 @ 12:35 pm

I mentioned above (88733) that I was exposed in my youth and it trained me to be victimized. My husband was exposed to hard core porn very young- preschool. This wounds a child, and what happens with such an early trauma is that he never developed empathy… which made him an abusive husband/father. So the “fruit” of pornography sown in his life fit with the 1 Timothy passage I quoted above. Where I was the gullible, controlled, weak willed, woman, he was the “christian” man with “a form of godliness but denying its power”:

“But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 2 Timothy 3:1-6

The “without love” in there is the greek word astorge- without natural affection, inhuman, unsociable… and I think it describes the empathic failure. Others do not register as human beings with needs and feelings, only his needs matter. Even children are an extension of him so he will be angry if they don’t conform to his ideals and opinions. My husband was angry if they inconvenienced him by being sick or wetting their pants….

Anyway, there’s hope. We are still married and we are in recovery. Honestly I think the wife is the one upon whom the burden falls to ezer (lifesaving help MEET) her husband who is in Satan’s captivity. And for me it involved coming out of agreement with the lies Satan had told me about God’s Word eg “shut up! Women are deceived so YOU have no voice!”

Here’s something I wrote about our marriage
brokenhearted children —> broken intimacy

Comment by jlp

February 19, 2009 @ 5:11 pm

There are some Christians, both egal and comp that have accepted the secular world’s culture of pornography as being normal. They see women through this lens and don’t see anything wrong with it. On the other hand, there are both egal and comps that take Jesus’ words about lust seriously and work hard at treating women in a pure manner. I just don’t know which influence dominates the Christian community: the secular world’s culture of pornography or the words of Jesus.

I am grateful to those men, both comp and egal, who for the sake of the Savior have decided to avoid porn or who have given up porn. They are a blessing to all womanhood.

Comment by Liz

February 19, 2009 @ 5:17 pm

Charis..that is so encouraging to hear that you are both in recovery. I was fully expecting to hear that you were now on your own and recovering. It will be a long haul but we pray for you both to know the wonderful adventure or enjoying each other without being so affected by the past.

Comment by Kate

February 20, 2009 @ 7:43 am

Sadly, women are among the growing consumers of porn today. It is sad. One reason it is not addressed in our churches is that so many men are using it… men from our churches. The rate of porn abuse is between 20-50% of men in church, depending on what research you read. And if you confront the men, you might lose them to another church. And, as was said, there are many pastors also consuming it. I say consume because it is more than use, it is consumed into the heart, mind and soul of the user and those around them.

As a side note, most women who particpaite in porn movies, etc, as well as most prostitutes, were sexually abused themselves as children, thereby reinforcing the idea that they are a sexualized object. We should pray for these women.

Also, ANCA told above about the women whose grandfathers would take the girls with them… although they did not touch them, at least that woman’s grandfather (don’t know about the others) they were sexually abusing them. We still call this sex abuse. Besides, what thrill did these men get bringing the little girls with them? It probably added to the fantasy. Sad, truly sad.

Sexual abuse damages the core of who we are; it is why it is Satan’s weapon of choice. If we cannot view ourselves as God does, fearfully and wonderfully made, then we are easy targets for all kinds of abuse, as Charis has said.

Comment by PS(anafter-thought)

February 20, 2009 @ 1:56 pm

A number of “legitimate” catalog companies have their women’s intimate clothing section full of photos that could easily be considered titillating. One thing women could do is refuse to order from those catalogs and let the companies know why. Or think of the stores in the malls that you might not want to go into with your teenage son.

I’ve got one daughter and one daughter-in-law-to-be who have been in the age group of the girls, now young women, who wear those tops that say, “Look at Me!.” I just hate that look. And these women weren’t exposed to dads with porno.

Comment by jlp

February 20, 2009 @ 4:21 pm

Girls whose fathers (like mine) who did not use porn are a step ahead of the game. However, even though their home environment was pure, the whole culture around them glorifies the female who makes her appearance sexual. So even though these girls had a good environment, the outside culture seeps in and tells these girls that the most exciting thing about being feminine is getting male sexual attention. And they believe it, hook, line and sinker because they don’t understand how culture is affecting them.

Comment by Charis

February 20, 2009 @ 4:41 pm

JLP,
Believing that “the most exciting thing about being feminine is getting male sexual attention” is one manifestation of believing the lies, but I think there are other manifestations. Personally I “hid” under strait-laced baggy clothing and enforced that “dress code” upon my five daughters too. I have a sister who “hides” under extra pounds. Hiding our femininity/sexuality as if it was “our fault” for tempting the man is just as much believing a lie as is flaunting our sexuality.

Comment by jlp

February 20, 2009 @ 4:42 pm

We need to start teaching girls about male sexual obsession. For one thing, the female body is not inherently sexually stimulating in its appearance. I do not believe men in cultures where no one wears clothes find the female body in and of itself as stimulating. They may find the body of the women they love that way, but not the female body itself. It is our culture that sexualizes the female body. So we need to teach girls that their body is not what stimulates men. It’s that our culture teaches men that the uncovered female body (or the female body wearing tight clothing) equates to female willingness to have sexual intercourse. And that’s what excites men. They identify body parts with sexual willingness.

The next thing we need to teach girls is that in our culture men are encouraged to get as much sex from as many women as possible. Also that many men feel that it is okay if they have sex outside the marriage, but not okay for the wife. Again, this is a cultural thing.

Lastly, we need to teach girls about male sexual addiction. Not only have men in our culture learned to associate uncovered female body parts with a female willingness to have sex, some of them will then begin to worship female body parts. These men use pornography.

We have to teach girls that although almost all of our cultures glorifies those women who have a good sexual appearance as being the best women, that doesn’t mean it’s the truth. We need to help them understand the attention they get from men by having a sexual appearance is not the type of attention that benefits them. Someday they will want a special man to have an interest in them. But they do not have to do it by dressing sexually. They need to be told that a more mature man will not require a sexual appearance in order for him to get interested in her.

Comment by Charis

February 20, 2009 @ 8:48 pm

Its a little bit of a tightrope walk, JLP. I probably compensated for my own victimization by overdoing the boundary “lessons” with my daughters… My 24 yo is lovely and extremely cautious about not giving the “wrong impression”. She would get asked out by many young men to whom she was not attracted (so she did not have her guard up, she could be herself), but the one she liked, she was so cautious about not flirting and such that it took forever before he took an interest. Around the time she was agonizing over this, I heard a program on christian radio that talked about how young Christian men are more attracted to worldly girls because Christian girls are so careful never to “give the wrong impression” that they appear to be NON-sexual.

Comment by Lin

February 20, 2009 @ 8:53 pm

One of the things that shocked me was to find out how much pornography is a problem in the church and not just with the spectators but many in ministry. It was a big wake up call for me.

Comment by momgodin

February 20, 2009 @ 9:18 pm

I’ve been reading so much here, forgive me for paraphrasing some posts I’m trying to recall.
There was a fellow here who I’m sure meant it as a compliment, and said to the effect, he was in awe that women could bring life into the world. That was something men will never know or experience. The response to that was so appropriate: ‘That fascination is your problem.’
My reproductive ability has no place in my Christian brother’s thoughts! And then someone made this excellent suggestion: “Perhaps men on forums should think of us as 50 year old women.” Good advice, since the Bible says “[Intreat]The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.” 1 Tim 2:5
If Christian men would treat women as they would their sisters, their thoughts would be pure regarding them. (Commit thy works unto the Lord and thy thoughts shall be established)

Comment by Liz

February 20, 2009 @ 11:06 pm

It seems important to start early to teach girls and boys that each person is unique and valuable to God. Also to major on the similarities among children/people whether female or male. The whole gender difference is blown out of all proportion, even with young children, as adults make observations of how kids behave and look. Asking a 4 yr old who their boyfriend/girlfriend is doesn’t help their growth and gives them ideas that are not age appropriate.

So much of how people view themselves sexually begins at home and as Charis pointed out , each person is a product of their home life and will pass on what they learnt (good or bad) to the next generation. Those who work in early childhood areas have great opportunities to redress this problem and of course we would want to educate parents and alert them to the possibilities of helping or hindering their children in matters of relationship.

Comment by jlp

February 21, 2009 @ 7:33 am

Liz,

There are young women who grow up in sexually healthy homes, but get tempted when they see all the women who dress sexually getting all the attention. They get tempted to do the same because our media and our culture glorifies women who dress sexually.

Charis,

I’m not talking about flirting. I think single people should flirt with people of the opposite gender that they are attracted to. A woman can dress in an attractive manner without it being sexually provocative. Years ago I knew one Christian young lady who loved putting on make up and doing her hair up in fancy ways. She wore beautiful clothes but they were not sexually provocative. She also flirted with the young men she was attracted to. I always admired her because she make herself attractive without sending a message that she was available for sex.

Comment by jlp

February 21, 2009 @ 7:40 am

Charis,

Around the time she was agonizing over this, I heard a program on christian radio that talked about how young Christian men are more attracted to worldly girls because Christian girls are so careful never to “give the wrong impression” that they appear to be NON-sexual.

When I was young I always dressed modestly. I had a lot of Christian men interested in me. I also had a lot of secular men interested in me. Dressing modestly and not sending the wrong message didn’t hurt my prospects at all. Of course, I was very outgoing. And that’s why I probably had so many men interested in me. Women who appear available are attractive to men, even if they don’t dress immodestly or send a message of sexual availability.

Comment by jlp

February 21, 2009 @ 7:42 am

Charis,

I should also add – I only have an average looking face and I still had men interested in me. I think it was because I was outgoing and therefore seemed available.

Comment by Pam

February 21, 2009 @ 10:16 am

I have been helping to facilitate one of Beth Moore’s studies, Breaking Free, recently.
I so appreciated Beth’s comments about harm done to women. They relate well to the conversation going on about this post. Beth wrote that whether or not a woman is personally victimized by abusive habits or actions towards women, she, like actual victims can become “demoralized.” Apt word! I think when we overhear about the widespread use of pornography, watch societal portrayals of so-called “worthwhile” women, read news stories of sex trafficing, rape, etc. whether we’ve been personally hurt or not, it weighs heavy. Liz asked, “What are the solutions?” I wish that I knew.

Comment by Charis

February 21, 2009 @ 10:55 am

I’m reading a book “Why Does He DO That” by Lundy Bancroft which has some passages which seemed relevant to this discussion. In the chapter entitled “The Making of an Abusive Man” he says

The harm to teens from looking at pornography has little to do with the sexual explicitness and everything to do with the attitudes it teaches toward women, relationships, sexual assault, and abuse…

Let’s return now to our growing boy. From a combination of different cultural influences, he develops an image of his future, which he carries within him. He pictures a woman who is beautiful, alluring, and focused entirely upon meeting his needs- one who has no needs of her own that might require sacrifice or effort on his part. She will belong to him and cater to him, and he will be free to disrespect her when he sees fit. In his mind this picture may illustrate the word partner, but a more accurate word for the image he is developing might be servant…

In sum, an abuser can be thought of not as a man who is a “deviant” but rather as one who learned his society’s lessons too well, swallowing them whole. He followed too carefully the signposts his culture put out for him marking the path to manhood- at least with respect to relationships with women (328-30)

Comment by Charis

February 21, 2009 @ 11:32 am

LIN said: One of the things that shocked me was to find out how much pornography is a problem in the church and not just with the spectators but many in ministry. It was a big wake up call for me.

That hints at a solution, right there. Of all places, shouldn’t the body of Christ be pure? What if the church had a culture of respect for women and submission to biblical qualifications for leadership (where someone who used porn is disqualified)?

Hope y’all don’t mind my quoting another passage about pornography from Bancroft’s book:

In pornography… women are portrayed as very simple. They are always in the mood for sex, and they never say no. They have no sexual needs- or needs of any kind- of their own; all they seem to care about is the man’s pleasure. They require no commitment, no sacrifice, and little money. When a man is finished with them, he turns off the video or closes the magazine, and they’re gone. What could be easier?

Most pornographic images regrettably fit well with the abusive mindset. The woman is available and submissive. Reduced to a body, and usually further reduced to just her sexual organs, she is depersonalized. The man owns her, literally because he owns the video or magazine or computer image…

For many abusive men, pornography has shaped their sexuality since they were teenagers or even younger. It has helped shape their view of what women are like and what they ought to be…a graduate of what I call “The Pornography School of Sexuality”…

Partners of my clients report to me on their efforts to set limits regarding the presence of pornography in the house, especially where children might get access to it. These women have good instincts. Abusive men absolutely need to be kept away from pornography as it feeds the precise thinking that drives their abusiveness (184-85)

Personally, I felt pretty much abandoned by the church as I attempted to hold my husband accountable for porn use and abuse. I was called “controlling”. Well Bancroft says (365)

I have noticed some recurring themes among those abusers whose changes go the deepest and last the longest, however:
…
-His partner gets the most unreserved, unequivocal support from her friends, her relatives, her religious community, and from the legal system if she needs it. The more consistently she receives the message that the abuse is in no way her fault and that her community intends to stand behind her 100 percent, the stronger and safer she feels to settle for nothing less than respectful treatment from her partner or ex-partner.

I would love to see role modeling and hear testimonies and preaching which indicates that a husband needs to listen to his wife and value and respect correction from her. I would also love to hear more public testimonies from men who have overcome porn use and abusiveness. Based on the epidemic proportions of the problem, shouldn’t every spiritually functional church have some who have overcome this particular warfare with the flesh?

Comment by jlp

February 21, 2009 @ 12:48 pm

Charis,

Thanks for those quotes. That book sound awesome. I’m going to make a note of it and hopefully read it someday.

By the way, tell your daughter she needs lessons in flirting so that the next time she meets guy she find interesting she will have no problem letting him know she likes him!

Comment by jlp

February 21, 2009 @ 12:49 pm

Charis,

I’m not surprised your church did not give you the support you needed. I wish they did. Sigh.

Comment by jlp

February 21, 2009 @ 12:50 pm

Pam,

Thanks for telling us about Beth Moore’s studies. What is the name of it?

Comment by jlp

February 21, 2009 @ 3:26 pm

All the comments have been wonderful. Thank you so much everyone for your thoughts and words.

Comment by mathladyX2

February 21, 2009 @ 3:29 pm

More women are getting into porn. But they are getting into porn that uses women as sex objects. The men in their lives get them into it. They are not getting into porn that uses men as sex objects, their men would never accept it.

Men don’t mind using women as sex objects, but they don’t accept women using men as sex objects. It’s a one way street.

Comment by Pam

February 21, 2009 @ 3:35 pm

To JLP,
Beth Moore’s study (the one I referred to) is called “Breaking Free.” It is great – helping women to leave behind hurtful experiences and find liberty and a sense of worthiness in Christ.

Comment by Liz

February 21, 2009 @ 5:14 pm

Sue…one way to join together is to form a CBE chapter with like-minded people.
Having said that, we haven’t managed to do that in spite of having the manual which gives helpful hints on how to form a chapter and some suggestions of what to do. Some CBE chapters in the states are doing some great things while also encouraging one another in biblical answers to some debatable passages and learning how to be a good influence in their churches.

Comment by Liz

February 21, 2009 @ 5:17 pm

JLP…I am a little concerned about use of the word ‘flirting’. Maybe it has a different connotation in America than in Australia because here it means that a woman is available and flirting is considered inappropriate by people with strong moral values.

Being friendly towards men and being your usual outgoing self is not necessarily flirting but just treating them the say way you would like to be treated – as an equal person, worthy of full respect and acceptance of who they are.

Comment by jlp

February 21, 2009 @ 9:08 pm

Liz,

Flirting is a much more innocent term where I live. It’s more akin to getting the other person’s attention and letting them know you would like to get to know them better.

Comment by jlp

February 22, 2009 @ 12:34 pm

Thanks for answering my question, Pam.

Comment by Trevor

February 22, 2009 @ 9:03 pm

I’ve only just entered into this topic and browsed through (up to this point) the 41 comments on this excellent post. Thanks JLP. All of your comments have been most enlightening and I note that there have been very few (if any) comments by men!

I’m really taken with the last paragraph of comment 88765 by Charis.

“I would love to see role modeling and hear testimonies and preaching which indicates that a husband needs to listen to his wife and value and respect correction from her. I would also love to hear more public testimonies from men who have overcome porn use and abusiveness. Based on the epidemic proportions of the problem, shouldn’t every spiritually functional church have some who have overcome this particular warfare with the flesh?”

Having been involved in pulpit ministry for most of our adult life addressing whole congregations on this topic has been something that I’ve been reluctant to do. I have alluded to it (the issue of porn use) in the context of dealing with a particular bible passage that highlights moral purity as a must for believers. In that context, I have often gone into some detail on the societal attitudes and various magazines that appear soft sell but have the potential to feed such an addiction, including chain store advertising materials etc.

As a result I have had some men come to me to confess their addiction to porn use and fantasy, or a fascination with the perfect bodies displayed in girlie magazines. My response has been to set up some form of accountability in order to help those who’ve owned up to their addiction with a view to overcoming it. But we rarely heard testimonies of that nature and the few times that it did happen, unsolicited, the church’s response caused some men to clam up rather than come out in the open and deal with the issue.

In saying that though I’m sure that you are right Charis. We need to find some way of making people within the church, particularly men it would seem, who have been culturally conditioned to accept the use of porn as normal, see it as anathema to the christian. I’m not usually one who favours the separation of the sexes in meetings, but perhaps men (and women) would feel more free to actually open up about such uses and abuses in a same sex environment?

In dealing with people on a personal (eg. counselling) level and environment I know the problem to be as wide spread as the statistics suggest. In the early days of our ministry, when God visited us in a revival like fashion, we had people confessing that the presence of God was so tangible in our gatherings that they could not hide anything. Perhaps we need a similar and prolonged visitation of the Spirit in our churches. I’ve read of similar things happening in times of revival in ages past, so it’s not that unusual.

I would like to run your thoughts by the pastor of the church that we currently attend and see what his reaction might be. I would also love to address men (or women) on this topic because I grew up in a sexually addictive environment and Christ is constantly supplying the grace needed to overcome it. Fortunately I married a very straight woman from whom I love to learn and be corrected. She has taught me much about valuing and respecting, not only her, but all women and listening to the valuable insights that they have to share.

Comment by Charis

February 23, 2009 @ 11:27 am

Thanks for your comment, Trevor. Men who express genuine concern really embody Christlikeness to those of us who have been wounded. May your tribe increase! :)

I understand your reluctance about getting overly graphic, but from the perspective of a woman who begged for help and really felt ignored, dismissed, and disregarded… there needs to be light on this problem and the damage it causes.

A good first step would be role modelling listening to and respecting the women. I did not feel that from the pastors (and this was a church which believed in the “equality of women” enough that they had a woman elder)

When a guest preacher came in one week, his message was a testimony of salvation at age 40 and recovery from alcohol addiction. The thing that struck me the most- for the rarity of ever hearing it from anyone else in a pulpit- was that he kept on referring to how his wife had helped him. How she had pointed out to him when she felt he was backsliding or wasn’t “done” with his deliverance. This man was willing to LISTEN TO HER, to receive correction from her! I’m sorry, but my experience tells me that is the exception in Christian circles (even in a church which practiced a degree of “egalitarianism” in church polity).

What does it mean that GOD gives a man a wife to HELP? No church I attended ever effectively taught nor role modelled the unique and powerful HELP a wife can be via receiving and respecting her input. I have found very few Christian resources where it is taught (materials by Joel and Kathy Davisson, and Ken Nair are good resources).

Comment by joanne

February 23, 2009 @ 12:09 pm

This is an interesting post. I agree that underlying the whole porn industry is a way of thinking about men and women. Women are depersonalized and objectified. But I think men are also depersonalized and objectified as well within this industry only perhaps differently. Men are portrayed almost like animals who only follow their sexual urges reducing them to merely being a sexual being. In this industry men are only validated by their sexual prowess.

I believe men in God’s image are more than this… way more. Part of Christian discipleship is to teach men and women their full worth as image bearers.

Comment by Frank

February 23, 2009 @ 1:01 pm

I also have reviewed the comments on this topic, and I plan to make some appropriate and, I hope,useful comments after I finish reviewing 3 books which I believe contain some real insight and help in addressing these related issues of patriarchy, domestic abuse, and pornography; something which male comps and egal both need to consider if they want to be genuine and effective allies with their Christian sisters in overcoming and reversing these evils that pervade both our churches and societies. The books are The Men We Long To Be: Beyond Domination to a New Christian Understanding of Manhood, by Stephen Boyd; Authentic Human Sexuality, by Jack and Judith Balswick; and The Mending of the Soul: Healing and Recovering from Abuse and Domestic Violence, by Dr Stacy Katz of Arizona Seminary. The last two books, I think, are familar to most people in CBE, while the first may not be. And so I will just say a few words about Stephen Boyd’s book and how I think we men, who wish to be effective allies in what I have elsewhere called “the Blessed Alliance,” can mine riches from this book, while avoiding its dross.

Stephen B. Boyd, is the associate professor of Christian History at Wake Forest University, and is co-director of the men’s study group of the American Academy of Religion. Though he comes from a Southern Baptist background, he left that denomination because of its move toward what he considered a form of rigid fundamentalism, and I believe he is now aligned with the American Baptist Church. This little summary may help you discern who Prof. Boyd is and something about his religious/theological origins and development.

Now, there are some aspects of Boyd’s book I strongly disagree with–e.g., he looks more favorably on homosexuality and same-sex unions than I ever would. Nevertheless, in his utilization of Scripture and the theological and ethical writings of Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, Dietrich Bonhoffer, etc., he says some very important things about how patriarchalism, by its method of socializing and conditioning men, causes them, against their better selves, to be perpetrators in the oppression and abuse of women, children, and those of other races and classes.

And one of the things he points out, and which I do agree with, is that not until men recognize, accept and purposely resist how patriarchialism has perverted and distorted who they are as God’s image bearers will they be the vigorous champions of truth, justice, righteousness and peace that God, the church and the world need them to be. And throughout the book, using Scripture, historic Christian writers, and discoveries of modern psychology, he sets to demonstrate the following 7 theses and their appropriate solutions:

These theses that have emerged in my reading, thinking, listening, and talking with men and women in the preparation for writing this book are seven. They are closely related and, in many ways, interlocking:

1. We men are not inherently or irreversibly violent, relationally incompetent, emotionally constipated, and sexually compulsive. To the extent that we manifest these characteristics, we do so not because we are male, but because we have experienced violent socializaton and conditioning processes that have required or produced this kind of behavior and we have chosen to accept, or adopt, these ways of being, thinking, and acting.
2. This dominative form of masculinity can be theologically construed to be a punishment or, better put, a result of human sin. That is, it exhibits an alienation from our truest selves, from God, and from others. It is a captivity from which we need release.
3. We, as men, are victims of a systematic oppression. Recognizing that and organizing with all other men to resist it is necessary for our full participation in the ending of all other forms of oppression.
4. It is possible for us to experience transformation and make different choices. For that to occur, we will need new kinds of communities and visions of ourselves and of the world free from the profound alienations we have mistaken for reality. (Note: Here, Trevor, I believe we all need to earnestly desire and pray for that powerful, prolonged, transforming visitation of the Spirit that you mentioned.)
5. Our well-being is inextricably linked to the well-being and flourishing of all others–human and non-human. One of the ways in which we are mystified by what I call “dominative masculinity” is by clinging to the mistaken belief that our well-being is somehow in competition with that of others. We are convinced that the progress of another somehow diminishes us. Not only is this not true, it is one of the aspects of this form of masculinity that itself contributes to the very attitudes and behaviors that diminish us and others.
6. Certain aspects of Christian theology and practice, particularly aspects of the dominant theology and practice that have served the ruling classes since the marriage of church and state with the emperor Constantine, have not had salutary effects on men. There are, however, alternative traditions and less visible expressions of the dominant traditions that call us to personal and interpersonal reconciliation and communion with God.
7. The pursuit of our bliss is our duty. Or, put the other way around, our duty is our bliss. It is the means by which God calls us to wholeness and participation in God’s realm of justice and love.

And then he speaks of how the various Christian writers he inteacts with and utilizes have informed the structure of the book in exploring these theses. So there are various reasons why we men would find this book helpful.

Comment by Lin

February 23, 2009 @ 5:30 pm

“A good first step would be role modelling listening to and respecting the women. I did not feel that from the pastors (and this was a church which believed in the “equality of women” enough that they had a woman elder)”

Absolutely. All the preaching in the world on this subject is null and void until the modelling goes with it. Another problem is that many churches are making sex a huge deal and preaching all kinds of sermons on it. I know I will get rocks over this but what are we telling folks to put their minds on? What thoughts are we promoting out there? When they preach these sermons about sex do they not realize there are folks in the audience whose spouses are dying of cancer? Or how about folks like the Wurmbrands who spent 15 years of their marriage in prison for the sake of the gospel? Are we really this shallow? The whole focus is wrong. Does anyone need to be told to have lots of sex with their spouse? The problem of porn is a deeper spiritual problem. The person addicted needs to be told that their sanctification is in question. Just like anything else that hinders our prayers and sanctification.

“When a guest preacher came in one week, his message was a testimony of salvation at age 40 and recovery from alcohol addiction. The thing that struck me the most- for the rarity of ever hearing it from anyone else in a pulpit- was that he kept on referring to how his wife had helped him. How she had pointed out to him when she felt he was backsliding or wasn’t “done” with his deliverance. This man was willing to LISTEN TO HER, to receive correction from her! I’m sorry, but my experience tells me that is the exception in Christian circles (even in a church which practiced a degree of “egalitarianism” in church polity). ”

George Bush credited his wife with helping him out of alcholism because she said it is either the booze or me. :o)

Comment by Trevor

February 23, 2009 @ 7:53 pm

Wow, lots more food for thought in these last four comments.
Thank you Charis, Joanne, Frank and Lin.

Firstly Charis, it’s really sad that you were in an egalitarian church and still felt alienated and misunderstood. I wonder whether in some circles, churches have simply embraced egalitarianism as culturally acceptable but have not really done the hard yards in recognizing and addressing the very real pain and trauma that women have experienced under patriarchy. There could be a sense in which egalitarianism has become tokenism, ie. we let women do things in the church now etc., but not deeply understanding the reasoning behind the practice. I also feel that younger believers, who have grown up with egalitarianism in society and an ill informed, or poorly modelled form in the church, are now embracing hierarchy teaching because it is being presented as more positive and godly. Thank God that you continued to strive for a better deal.

Secondly Joanne. Yes, you are so right. Men are victims here too. This industry does prey on their base nature. We need to lift men’s gaze to a much higher beauty, to be all that God intends for them to be in Christ. I don’t see how we can do this transformational work without an understanding of biblical equality. It is only as we view each other and value each other as brothers and sisters in Christ that we can be free of objectifying our sexuality and then exploiting it.

Thirdly Frank. Thanks for your input. I always appreciate your thoroughness. This last book, by Stephen Boyd, that you briefly reviewed, sounds very interesting. Especially the 7 theses into which you have given us a window. Like you, I may not agree with how far this guy has gone with the acceptance of homosexuality per se, but I would go as far as to say that I believe that strict gender stereotyping has given rise to increased homosexual leanings. I strongly resonate with the 7 theses and the suggestion that they are culturally adapted and the result of sin rather than biblically mandated. This is a huge one that needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

Finally Lin. I couldn’t agree with you more on those comments about sexual fulfillment being the flavor of the month in many pulpits. This seems to be a product of preaching into a hedonistic culture that has found its way into the church. This is where the doctrine of individualism and self gratification has usurped the place of interdependence and self control, or denial. That is not to say that sexual satisfaction within marriage is unimportant, but there is an appropriateness in all of this and your allusion to the martyr church is right on. Perhaps, in a way, the fact that we are so preoccupied with sexual matters both within secular life and the church has indirectly sanctioned pornography?

Comment by Liz

February 23, 2009 @ 9:59 pm

Charis….you said to my husband ‘may your tribe increase’ and we would echo that wholeheartedly. It is a lonely road for a guy who really understands how it feels to be a woman in the majority of church life. We have 4 sons and 2 of them are following God and embracing biblical equality. It is a joy to hear them defending mutuality and watching their marriages develop. For them it can be lonely at times too, especially for the son who is a pastor in a church with many wonderful people who embrace complementarianism. It’s a case of ‘they don’t know that they don’t know’ and he has to tread carefully and wisely.

Thanks also for the recommended resources.

I would like to say too that even when we have talked from the pulpit and privately about a wife’s ‘help’ in her husbands growing up in God, that there is still the tendency to make jokes about it or ignore it as only suitable for our particular personality types. The culture (church and secular) has made deep impressions!

Comment by Liz

February 23, 2009 @ 11:25 pm

Lin….I think you have pointed out something extremely important in that it is the quality of relationship among us which is all important. Just having an active sex life is not the prescription for a good marriage. We have known couples who seemingly enjoyed their sexual life but could not get on well together in daily things and eventually separated. Wholesome sex comes out of mutual respect and love and understanding of the whole person. So often it is the women who are encouraged to be more sexually available as a point of ‘honouring’ their husbands!
It all becomes so skewed and out of proportion with the women being the losers all the way.

If we get our love and esteem for one another then the sexual relationship within marriage with grow from that base.

Comment by Liz

February 23, 2009 @ 11:29 pm

I just got our latest CBE magazines out of the letterbox and nearly every article answers a point which we are discussing here on the Scroll. I would like to give an advertisement for membership of Christians for Biblical Equality and the receiving of “Mutuality” and “Priscilla Papers” which are so full of encouraging testimonies, poetry (thanks Hubert) and articles which show again and again how equality is just so biblical.

If there is anyone out there in the blogosphere who would love to get these magazines and can’t afford the subscription, please be bold enough to email us and we can provide a couple of free subscriptions for one year.

Comment by S

February 24, 2009 @ 2:49 am

I guess I’m being bold :-). How would one in about e-mailing you, Liz? I have a few back issues floating around, but haven’t been able to swing a membership…

Comment by Charis

February 24, 2009 @ 6:59 am

Thanks Liz,

I’m so glad you and Trevor are a team! I wish there were many “Aquilla and Priscilla” teams out there. Maybe someday…

Your comment brought tears to my eyes. Oddly enough I had typed up a comment yesterday after Trevor’s last post and then decided not to post it. In it I mentioned that though my church was somewhat “egalitarion” in polity- the female elder was allowed to preach twice a year or so (on mother’s day and one other time), it was always made clear that the male pastors and elders had “invited her to bring a message” so she was “covered”. The pastor testified- in our marriage counseling- of how he had sold his wife’s beloved car from under her against her wishes to buy something he thought was better and it gave them no end of problems. “Because she humbly submitted to my final decision making authority, I learned my lesson about not taking her desires into consideration”. And he gave us a book by a CBMW author which had a description of a husband’s authority which I would have been afraid for my husband to read so I gave it back to the pastor when my husband hadn’t read it (not that he was ever really interested in reading such books- he blamed all the problems on me). The final straw for me was when the pastor told a joke right from the pulpit to kick off his sermon with the punch line of God nor man understands a woman’s emotions. When I confronted him about this, he got defensive about his “humor”. Again, it was “my problem”

Anyway, hearing someone who speaks with understanding of these issues is very good and, at the same time, painful for its rarity and the wounds it touches.

I think I’ll take you up and order a subscription (I am able to pay for one) These days, I’m not afraid of my husband seeing a book about women’s equality or a magazine. At one point, he was so threatened by my reading and learning that he reacted abusively to my ordering books.

Comment by Liz

February 24, 2009 @ 8:02 am

Thanks for your encouragement Charis. It is so good that you recognise that we do understand. We want so much to be able to help people believe that what their heart is telling them is true to scripture and that just because so much of the church culture denigrates women and relationships doesn’t make it right or acceptable to God.

I have emailed you re the membership.

Comment by leigh

February 24, 2009 @ 12:55 pm

Frank,
Is there an updated version of the Boyd book coming out? I was able to find a 1995 version on Amazon.com (though not available directly from them). I’d like to know whether I should purchase one of those, or wait for the new version.
Thanks.

Comment by Frank

February 24, 2009 @ 7:57 pm

Leigh, as regards the Boyd book, I don’t think there has been a revision. I have looked and haven’t found any at the bookstores, at any rate. So, yes, I think buying the 1995 copy from Amazon would be a wise thing to do. I think it is a valuable and helpful book in understanding how patriarchy, by its harsh socialization and conditioning of men, disconnects and alienates them from everyone and everything they truly cherish, long to nurture and lovingly be connected with. And while, as I have said, there are some aspects of the book I strongly disagree with, yet there is also a lot of insightful, profound, and challenging material that can help in understanding and dealing with men’s internal conflicts that are acted out in abusive and violent behavior.

After all, all truth is God’s truth, and it should be used to give some real bite to our message of hope and release to men and women held captive by these destructive states of mind and heart. And as someone else said, we should make use of all the resources God makes available to us through the arts, sciences, whatever. Certainly that was Paul’s frame of mind when he said, “All things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Peter or the world or life or death or the present or the future–all are yours, and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God” (1 Cor. 3:21-23, TNIV).

And I’m glad Charis will be getting CBE materials with Liz’s help; isn’t that what we want to do for each other, help and encourage each other whenever and however we can? Oh, yes!

Comment by leigh

February 24, 2009 @ 8:14 pm

Thank you. One of the first observations I made about church culture (having been converted to Christianity in my adult life and started attending church as an adult) is the way it takes some of the most negative aspects of the secular stereotypes of the sexes and not only encourages but actually codifies them. This book is a must, for me. I do want to understand the difficulty of being a man in this culture.

I appreciate you and your posts, and all others who post here. I won’t be posting on or reading The CBE Scroll during Lent, but you will be in my prayers. :-)

Comment by Sonnet

February 24, 2009 @ 10:32 pm

My preteen daughter recently watched a video clip on YouTube in her health class. (You can search “dove evolution” on YouTube) The clip showed the great lengths taken to transform a model including an extensive amount of photo editing. Even her neck was altered. It was narrowed and elongated to create a more swan-like appearance. The video exposé reveals the deception and false images of the advertising industry. This industry is not content with just encouraging girls and women to compare themselves with natural “beauty queens.” They keep raising the bar ever higher. This hyper focus on outward beauty leads to shallow emptiness and/or idolatry. How tempting it is to wish that we could look like her!

“In modern Europe and the U.S., sex has a near-sacred quality of mythic, numinous power. We select our sexiest individuals and accord them the status of gods and goddesses, fawning over the details of their lives, … surrounding them with paparazzi, rewarding them with money and status.” – Philip Yancey in his book, Rumors of Another World (pg. 78-79)

But God tells us:

“Beauty is fleeting.” Prov. 31:30 TNIV

“Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.” 1 Corinthians 13:13 NLT

When God came down to earth and took on a human body to help show us the way, He could have chosen the most attractive physical form that humanity has ever known. But instead –

”He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.” Isaiah 53:2b TNIV

“There was nothing attractive about him,
nothing to cause us to take a second look.” – The Message

Obsession with youthful, physical beauty and/or pornography is all vanity. It takes our eyes off the One who desires to lead us into true and abundant life.

Comment by Liz

February 25, 2009 @ 1:21 am

Just for the record…..Charis paid for her own subscription so I have at least one more to give away.

Comment by historyloveralways

February 25, 2009 @ 8:03 am

“We select our sexiest individuals and accord them the status of gods and goddesses, fawning over the details of their lives, … surrounding them with paparazzi, rewarding them with money and status.”

What Yancy says is true. But it is done much more to women than men. I don’t think this issue can be discussed without mentioning that.

Comment by Kate

February 25, 2009 @ 10:05 am

Ok, I’m asking for the other subscription… although I haven’t been able to engage in the discussion much, (I’m trying to finish writing a Bible Study/Support Group curriculum for abused Christian women) I have read it and am so grateful for these types of exchanges.

But I would love the subscription!

Comment by jlp

February 25, 2009 @ 4:51 pm

One thing about this topic is that there are a lot of complementarians who feel the same way about porn as we do.

Comment by Liz

February 25, 2009 @ 5:09 pm

Yes JLP and that is such good news – something we can work on together maybe?

Comment by jlp

February 25, 2009 @ 6:07 pm

Hopefully Liz. It would certainly be nice.

Comment by Jim Hooper

March 7, 2009 @ 8:51 am

I have been addicted to porn since puberty (I’m 66). I view only porn that portrays women engaging in sex for their own pleasure–which is true of almost all porn that I come across. Far from causing me to view live women in my vicinity as sex objects, it has somehow intensified my commitment not to view women that way, perhaps served as a substitute for lust toward flesh-and-blood women I know and women strangers I see. I even go overboard making sure that my wife doesn’t feel objectified as a sex object by me. I find Susan Griffin’s Pornography and Silence convincing: she argues that porn tends to suppress actual eroticism in men. That is the harm, in my life, caused by my addiction to porn.

Comment by Frank

March 8, 2009 @ 2:59 pm

Jim, my heart goes out to you. I think you and I, in our own ways, have been victims of the patriarchal system which distorts our God-intended manhood. One of the things that Stephen Boyd points out in his book, and which I will briefly summarize here, is that the patriarchal socializing and conditioning of men involves our denying that some of our deepest emotional needs can be met through close friendships with other men and women, while forcing us to objectify our wives and fiancees as “the Ideal Woman.” And the patriarchal system has conditioned us men to view a woman as a perfect combination of sex nymph and madonna. And when our women can’t “perform” for us, we men turn to pornography as a substitute, which like any addiction harms us and those we really love and want to be close with. And when I think how, in high school, before I became a Christian, I was conditioned to think that it was manly to read Playboy Magazine, see movies about prostitution like “Never on Sunday,” and “score” with a girl as often as you could, and that if I didn’t I was a homosexual or fag, I get angry that I was victimized in this way. Even after I became a Christian, it took me several years, following Paul’s advice in Phil. 4:8-9, to overcome a strong inclination to sexual lust. I can only imagine how you have suffered, Jim. And I wonder, is there any men’s group in your area where the principle of James 5:15-16 is practiced, where you would be safe to share your struggles and get the loving support and help you need to be healed from this addiction? I wish I knew how I could help you, other than offering my sympathy and prayers. Does anyone else have any suggestions for Jim?

Comment by Jon Trott

March 17, 2009 @ 10:19 am

What an edifying discussion on such a painful and sad topic. Frank has hit a number of issues I’d have brought up. I’m going a more mundane route. A few thoughts from a male still on a journey re his own sexuality (at 51 years of age, yet!) I hope Jim and anyone else dealing w/ porn finds some little truth here useful:

1. First, an aside to all us Christian Egalitarians… Even the feminists are divided on porn. Second-wavers, such as Andrea Dworkin (deceased), Kate Millet and the like, often surprised Evangelicals with their wholesale war on pornographers and pornography. But Third-Wavers such as Susie Bright and others — Nancy Friday was an early voice — claim that porn is actually liberating for women. (I imagine porn-addicted males nodding happily at that!) Our Christian response should attempt to digest and respond to this Third-Wave embracing of pornography as well as interact with Second-Wave critiques of porn. I worry that overall we don’t seem well aware of secular feminist writings, and frankly, we need to be. CBE, please do some articles in Mutuality and/or Priscilla Papers interacting more w/ secular feminism!

2. Some will find this long point mundane, and can skip it. I can speak only for myself and my own experience, but I am very sexually aware and react sexually to some degree to nearly any woman. I confess this so that I can also bring up a delicate issue. Are we really sure that men (or women!) should not be thinking sexual thoughts about one another? Is that overly simplistic? Or is there a nuance here that even the bible hints at? For me, I find it most helpful to view sexual thoughts not as enemies per se but rather as vehicles. I steer them. If I respond sexually to a woman (and as I say, I often do), I don’t in most cases reprimand myself. Instead, I attempt to immediately vertically direct that desire. That is, I say “Lord Jesus, thank you for this beautiful sister. She is lovely. Help me now to honor her with my thoughts and actions. Help me to honor you by honoring her. And thank you for my sexuality. It is beautiful. I give my sexuality to you.” As a married man, I also have the luxury of thinking very sexual thoughts about my wife, intentionally short-circuiting any lingering thoughts which dishonor the lady in question. When an unmarried man (which was my state twice) I found it helpful to actively thank God for any woman I was tempted to sexually undress. Again, turning temptations into praises of God’s love and provision (in my singleness I sensed I was called one day to be married), I affirmed my sexuality but also took responsibility for it to keep it from becoming a means to dishonor God, another person for whom He died, or/and myself. This overly long point centers on one main idea: Sexuality and sexual feelings are GOOD. God made them. Our responsibility as Christians is to have self-control regarding them yet also to praise God for their existence. As a high-sex individual, this helped me not confuse the sin of lust with the sensuality God Himself made me to experience.

3. Sexuality as God created it is about relationship; it is meant to be part of a whole life shared between two people. Or, if someone is called to singleness, I believe sexuality is meant to be part of a balanced sensual / spiritual reality. The touch of silk is a way to luxuriate in the senses… a breath of wind on one’s face… sunlight streaming through a church window during a hymn…

I taught a class on the Old Testament recently, and the point of the material I was using was simple. The entire Old Testament law was about worship. Every single thing Israel is told to do, all those crazy and ornate minutia-based forms and actions, were to direct the People of God’s eyes upward toward God. That is how I think we should view sexuality. If I see — forgive the specificity, but lets get honest — a woman’s breasts partially bared and I respond to that cue instantly — the next instant I hope (and try to insure) my heart rises in worship to God. I don’t have to say, “Oh, no, I saw a sexy BREAST!” Rather, I can say, “Lord, you made such a beautiful creation. Thank you for it. Help me to govern my heart and desires so that I don’t usurp that with which I am not in relation.” No, I don’t pray such flowery prayers in the real moments. It is more like “God, thanks for breasts. Thank you that my wife’s are lovely, and that I can enjoy them later! Meanwhile, help me not be a male jerk by staring at this sister’s chest instead of respectfully looking at her face while talking to her and otherwise directing my glances where they should be. Let even my eyes worship you in obedience!” Still too flowery, but I hope the idea is there.

4. Pornography is the worship of the penis. This is an idea from Second-Wave feminism, and has many deeper resonances, and frankly I also think it is deeply resonant with Scripture. Our culture is sick with penis-worship. And I speak here of both the Christian and secular cultures. Christian hierarchalists literally argue that because a man is a man (biologically defined via the penis, y’all!) he is to rule over the one who doesn’t have that appendage. Idiocy. Insanity. Busted theology. And a huge block in between not only men and women, but also between mere lust and sexuality as an act / attitude of worship.

As a guy, I have to say that the poor little penis (and they are ALL little when men are afraid, or lost, or fear-filled), can’t carry the weight of being a god. No wonder some men, unable to understand sexual excitement as part of a wholistic reality, turn what God meant as a conduit of love into a weapon of violence and hatred (that is, rape). While I am not willing to make a direct A-B connection between porn and rape (some of the Third Wave stuff has me wondering on that score), I do think there is more than an accidental connection. At the least, porn and rape share a reductionistic world view where all meaning is reduced to penetration. Rape takes it one more step, namely, that penetration is a raw assertion of power. Even the poet John Donne uses this horrific phrase to describe a virgin bride being penetrated: “he gently disemboweled her.” So, yes, the penis has a terrible legacy which porn both aids and establishes.

5. Porn consumption is about masturbation; that is its purpose and its goal. I am not going to say that all masturbation, even that done without porn or sexual fantasies, is wrong. I don’t think a married man should be telling those walking in singleness how to deal with that issue, frankly. I’ll trust their dialogue w/ God and others to work it out. But when it comes to literally snapping sexuality off into its own compartment — for most Christian porn-users a secret compartment — via the porn/masturbation cycle this is so destructive. Sexuality outside its porn context becomes undesirable, because sexuality (and this is something everyone from secular sexperts to Christian theologians would agree on) becomes bonded to the “object” of its repeated exercise. God meant that for a positive set of reasons. A man gets “used to” doing certain things his wife likes, and she in turn might enjoy doing specific things he likes. These things might get boring sometimes, but on the other hand, they also become the basic enjoyments that “always work” when more adventurous moments do not work. More specific yet, the visual sights each has of the other during sex become sexual cues that work even away from the bedroom. It is all good, almost a parallel to worship vertically… but subverted by porn, which usurps those otherwise bonding cues and links them to pixels on a monitor / TV screen or words / photos on a page. “One can’t have two masters…” even in the bedroom this is true.

6. Porn addicts cannot fight alone. Porn is a drug. Really. It creates chemical reactions in the body which, once developed, require porn to once again be experienced. There is a 12-Step manual for Sex Addicts known as The White Book, and if Jim or others here realize porn use is not something they have real control over, they should go on line and attempt to discover if any S. A. groups are meeting near them. If not, perhaps there are online communities (though being on line for a porn addict is a bit like being in a liquor store — behind the counter! — for an alcoholic). Others here may have additional ideas. But addiction of any kind isn’t something where “I prayed the prayer and now I’m better.” God Himself makes accountability one to another central in how the Church is supposed to work, and we American Evangelicals are usually terrible at accountability (recent events regarding our leaders tells us that much!).

So much more to say, but I’ve said WAY too much.

Blessings on CBE and all of you here.

Jon Trott / Chicago / Jesus People USA Ev. Cov. Church

Comment by Jon Trott

March 17, 2009 @ 11:22 am

I posted a ridiculously long response… and it vanished into computer Gehenna. Oh, well.

Shorter response: WOW does this thread encourage me.

A few snippets from my leaky brain-pan:

1. Re porn, we Christians really need to be interacting more with secular feminists — if for no other reason than to show ourselves concerned with our unbelieving neighbors who struggle with the same issues we do. Second Wave and Third Wave Feminism have overall quite different takes on the porn issue – Second Wavers (Dworkin, Millet, others) being very anti-porn but Third Wavers (Susie Bright, Nancy Friday, others) embracing porn as “empowering.” I’ve not seen any of us seriously grapple with the issues raised by Third Wavers… or even show ourselves aware of those issues. Yes, I’m whining.

2. I do think — and here’s a perhaps controversial comment — that wives (or HUSBANDS!) who systematically deny their mate sex are sinning against their mate. I would base that not on any non-egalitarian text but rather upon Paul’s adjuration on the topic in 1 Corinthians 7:3-5. And — read it carefully — a very egalitarian understanding is reflected here!

3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.
4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
5 Do not deprive one another except perhaps by agreement for a set time, to devote yourselves to prayer, and then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

I think what we might forget is that Christian Egalitarians *do* believe in submission — but it is a submission of mutuality, outdoing one another in acts of love. Thus, a higher-sexed partner might voluntarily forego insisting on his/her own way regarding having sex at that particular time, while a lower-sexed partner might respond by “gifting” her/him self to the higher-sexed one. And this higher/lower sexed role itself may be exchanged, as sometimes one may want sex where the other doesn’t. The goal is to respond out of love rather than compulsion, and to forthrightly but non-demandingly make known one’s own desires.

As a higher-sexed partner at most times, I can say that my wife often responds to me rather than initiating. This used to bother me greatly, so much so that I tried to deny myself if she seemed non-focused on the possibility. She informed me that was silly, and furthermore noted that her responding often began as a favor but often turned into a very nice experience (attempting to tread chastely here! Haha!).

3. Porn is a drug, and this is empirically known. Porn creates chemical reactions in some people that make it no less potent than a hard drug. Additionally porn “snaps off” sexuality from its proper relational, wholistic, and worshipful (both horizontally and vertically) context. If anyone reading this realizes they are not in control of their use of porn, I strongly urge them to get involved w/ a 12 step group and to find a copy of the White Book (the S. A. 12 step guide) to start with.

4. Pornography is in the mind of the person consuming it. No woman — and I don’t care if she is walking bare naked down the street — can be blamed for what goes on in my mind and heart. Two thousand years of Church history offer abundant evidence of men blaming women for male sexual dysfunction and lack of self-control. As one man, I say simply STOP IT NOW. If I see a woman’s breasts involuntarily bared as she bends over to pick something up, my response is my responsiblity, not hers. If a woman dresses in order to attract men… what is that to me? She’s responsible for her actions… I’m responsible for mine. And lest we forget, women too can lust. And do. I wear muscle shirts sometimes. If a woman finds me attractive (as dubious as that might be) because of this, it isn’t my issue. It is hers. Any attempt to claim men are more visual than women and therefore it is the woman’s responsibility to take care of the men by not dressing provocatively is in my opinion both unfair and unworkable. Lust hits me when lust hits me… and I’ll never know exactly why. A woman can be “dressed chastely” by every standard, yet I still become sexually aroused. Is that still her fault? Who gets to define “dressed chastely”? No, it is all me. Other women — including some of the Hollywood / rock stars — with all their charms hanging out literally do nothing to me. I just don’t resonate on that sexual frequency. Are they dressing chastely? Hardly. So let’s not play the church games. Men, man up. Take your own sexuality seriously and get off the notion that you can’t control it because the women are at fault. Just like Adam in the garden, we’re still whining that “Lord, the woman you gave me” did it all. Uhuh.

Jon Trott / Jesus People USA
Chicago

Comment by Jon Trott

March 17, 2009 @ 11:33 am

One short additional note re higher-desire mates vs. lower-desire mates, and I guess this is really aimed at the higher-desire guys:

If you want to blow your lower-desire wife’s mind and woo her, I hope you are aware of (controversial?) oral stimulation. A secular book which I recommend despite its sometimes messed up morality is “She Comes First” by Ian Kerner. (You can find copies of this free in pdf format floating around the web, or buy a cheap copy on Amazon.) It encourages us guys in the art of oral stimulation. Messages we send our wives by so doing include “It’s not all about Mr. Pinky” for one, and “Yes, I really really like making you happy!” for another. If as one writer said, “The most important sex organ is the mind,” this little book might help a lot to give her something nice to think about. If any guy out there thinks oral sex is nasty or “smells” or whatever… your loss.

One caution: If any woman or man was abused via oral sex, it is *not* a good idea until the two of you talk it out / over and are agreed. No pushing. And note I didn’t mention a woman doing this for her husband. I didn’t for a reason. This is explicit enough, and I do think some additional issues come up re fellatio that aren’t there as much for cunnilingus. Moderators can tell me to stop talking about this, or if it is okay, I can say a little more about that element of things… from my *non-expert* but well-read place, of course.

Jon Trott

Comment by Liz

March 17, 2009 @ 7:46 pm

Thanks for your insightful comments Jon. We value your heart attitude in these matters. Maybe if people wanted to go into more detail with some of the issues you raise, they could do so on your website. If you think this is a good idea, you could include your link in the next comment and invite people over.

Comment by LMcC

March 18, 2009 @ 11:01 am

Jon (88945):

No complaints from me about an explicit post. The more Christians can grow up and start snagging certain topics back from the world, the better. Sex is one of those things we need to take back and get real about. No treating it as a taboo, but also no sensationalism in the church (have you seen some of the sermon series out lately? BWAH!?). Take the middle ground, treat sex as part of reality and then deal with the issues around it maturely.

Comment by Gloria

March 20, 2009 @ 4:16 pm

Ha ha, I don’t think I’ve ever heard a Christian talk so openly about sex in a POSITIVE manner as that, Jon.

As part of the “counseling” before I got married, I was advised to read a book by Tim and Beverly LaHaye (“The act of marriage” or something like that). I was young and my view of sexuality was FAR from healthy and well-adjusted, and sad to say, while a couple of things in that book were helpful, some of what the authors implied or stated was actually damaging to me and I was burdened with guilt for years afterward. Without going into detail, it wasn’t until I got over the guilt of feeling like I was “doing it wrong” that I was able to start matching my husband’s desire. That’s important to me, because, although I don’t want to make my marriage into a competition of any sort, one of my goals in marriage is to really BE an equal partner and not just a tag-along. I don’t want to be passive and permissive, I want to be active and a leader in my own right. Oddly enough, in making this a goal, I’m actually submitting to my husband because that’s what HE wants for me, too. XD

Let’s face it. Every person is different. The best thing for couples to do is find a way to make their desires work together in a Godly relationship. This doesn’t just apply to sex, but to our emotions, interests, and… pretty much everything.

Comment by Jon Trott

March 21, 2009 @ 9:36 am

The mods invited me to continue this thread’s discussion on my own blog, http://bluechristian.blogspot.com, if anyone is interested. I’ll post a short note regarding that on bluechristian and we can go from there.

Jon Trott