Jon Trott

As part of the “counseling” before I got married, I was advised to read a book by Tim and Beverly LaHaye (“The act of marriage” or something like that). I was young and my view of sexuality was FAR from healthy and well-adjusted, and sad to say, while a couple of things in that book were helpful, some of what the authors implied or stated was actually damaging to me and I was burdened with guilt for years afterward. Without going into detail, it wasn’t until I got over the guilt of feeling like I was “doing it wrong” that I was able to start matching my husband’s desire. That’s important to me, because, although I don’t want to make my marriage into a competition of any sort, one of my goals in marriage is to really BE an equal partner and not just a tag-along. I don’t want to be passive and permissive, I want to be active and a leader in my own right. Oddly enough, in making this a goal, I’m actually submitting to my husband because that’s what HE wants for me, too. XD

Let’s face it. Every person is different. The best thing for couples to do is find a way to make their desires work together in a Godly relationship. This doesn’t just apply to sex, but to our emotions, interests, and… pretty much everything.

No complaints from me about an explicit post. The more Christians can grow up and start snagging certain topics back from the world, the better. Sex is one of those things we need to take back and get real about. No treating it as a taboo, but also no sensationalism in the church (have you seen some of the sermon series out lately? BWAH!?). Take the middle ground, treat sex as part of reality and then deal with the issues around it maturely.

If you want to blow your lower-desire wife’s mind and woo her, I hope you are aware of (controversial?) oral stimulation. A secular book which I recommend despite its sometimes messed up morality is “She Comes First” by Ian Kerner. (You can find copies of this free in pdf format floating around the web, or buy a cheap copy on Amazon.) It encourages us guys in the art of oral stimulation. Messages we send our wives by so doing include “It’s not all about Mr. Pinky” for one, and “Yes, I really really like making you happy!” for another. If as one writer said, “The most important sex organ is the mind,” this little book might help a lot to give her something nice to think about. If any guy out there thinks oral sex is nasty or “smells” or whatever… your loss.

One caution: If any woman or man was abused via oral sex, it is *not* a good idea until the two of you talk it out / over and are agreed. No pushing. And note I didn’t mention a woman doing this for her husband. I didn’t for a reason. This is explicit enough, and I do think some additional issues come up re fellatio that aren’t there as much for cunnilingus. Moderators can tell me to stop talking about this, or if it is okay, I can say a little more about that element of things… from my *non-expert* but well-read place, of course.

Jon Trott

Shorter response: WOW does this thread encourage me.

A few snippets from my leaky brain-pan:

1. Re porn, we Christians really need to be interacting more with secular feminists — if for no other reason than to show ourselves concerned with our unbelieving neighbors who struggle with the same issues we do. Second Wave and Third Wave Feminism have overall quite different takes on the porn issue – Second Wavers (Dworkin, Millet, others) being very anti-porn but Third Wavers (Susie Bright, Nancy Friday, others) embracing porn as “empowering.” I’ve not seen any of us seriously grapple with the issues raised by Third Wavers… or even show ourselves aware of those issues. Yes, I’m whining.

2. I do think — and here’s a perhaps controversial comment — that wives (or HUSBANDS!) who systematically deny their mate sex are sinning against their mate. I would base that not on any non-egalitarian text but rather upon Paul’s adjuration on the topic in 1 Corinthians 7:3-5. And — read it carefully — a very egalitarian understanding is reflected here!

3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.
4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
5 Do not deprive one another except perhaps by agreement for a set time, to devote yourselves to prayer, and then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

I think what we might forget is that Christian Egalitarians *do* believe in submission — but it is a submission of mutuality, outdoing one another in acts of love. Thus, a higher-sexed partner might voluntarily forego insisting on his/her own way regarding having sex at that particular time, while a lower-sexed partner might respond by “gifting” her/him self to the higher-sexed one. And this higher/lower sexed role itself may be exchanged, as sometimes one may want sex where the other doesn’t. The goal is to respond out of love rather than compulsion, and to forthrightly but non-demandingly make known one’s own desires.

As a higher-sexed partner at most times, I can say that my wife often responds to me rather than initiating. This used to bother me greatly, so much so that I tried to deny myself if she seemed non-focused on the possibility. She informed me that was silly, and furthermore noted that her responding often began as a favor but often turned into a very nice experience (attempting to tread chastely here! Haha!).

3. Porn is a drug, and this is empirically known. Porn creates chemical reactions in some people that make it no less potent than a hard drug. Additionally porn “snaps off” sexuality from its proper relational, wholistic, and worshipful (both horizontally and vertically) context. If anyone reading this realizes they are not in control of their use of porn, I strongly urge them to get involved w/ a 12 step group and to find a copy of the White Book (the S. A. 12 step guide) to start with.

4. Pornography is in the mind of the person consuming it. No woman — and I don’t care if she is walking bare naked down the street — can be blamed for what goes on in my mind and heart. Two thousand years of Church history offer abundant evidence of men blaming women for male sexual dysfunction and lack of self-control. As one man, I say simply STOP IT NOW. If I see a woman’s breasts involuntarily bared as she bends over to pick something up, my response is my responsiblity, not hers. If a woman dresses in order to attract men… what is that to me? She’s responsible for her actions… I’m responsible for mine. And lest we forget, women too can lust. And do. I wear muscle shirts sometimes. If a woman finds me attractive (as dubious as that might be) because of this, it isn’t my issue. It is hers. Any attempt to claim men are more visual than women and therefore it is the woman’s responsibility to take care of the men by not dressing provocatively is in my opinion both unfair and unworkable. Lust hits me when lust hits me… and I’ll never know exactly why. A woman can be “dressed chastely” by every standard, yet I still become sexually aroused. Is that still her fault? Who gets to define “dressed chastely”? No, it is all me. Other women — including some of the Hollywood / rock stars — with all their charms hanging out literally do nothing to me. I just don’t resonate on that sexual frequency. Are they dressing chastely? Hardly. So let’s not play the church games. Men, man up. Take your own sexuality seriously and get off the notion that you can’t control it because the women are at fault. Just like Adam in the garden, we’re still whining that “Lord, the woman you gave me” did it all. Uhuh.

Jon Trott / Jesus People USA
Chicago

1. First, an aside to all us Christian Egalitarians… Even the feminists are divided on porn. Second-wavers, such as Andrea Dworkin (deceased), Kate Millet and the like, often surprised Evangelicals with their wholesale war on pornographers and pornography. But Third-Wavers such as Susie Bright and others — Nancy Friday was an early voice — claim that porn is actually liberating for women. (I imagine porn-addicted males nodding happily at that!) Our Christian response should attempt to digest and respond to this Third-Wave embracing of pornography as well as interact with Second-Wave critiques of porn. I worry that overall we don’t seem well aware of secular feminist writings, and frankly, we need to be. CBE, please do some articles in Mutuality and/or Priscilla Papers interacting more w/ secular feminism!

2. Some will find this long point mundane, and can skip it. I can speak only for myself and my own experience, but I am very sexually aware and react sexually to some degree to nearly any woman. I confess this so that I can also bring up a delicate issue. Are we really sure that men (or women!) should not be thinking sexual thoughts about one another? Is that overly simplistic? Or is there a nuance here that even the bible hints at? For me, I find it most helpful to view sexual thoughts not as enemies per se but rather as vehicles. I steer them. If I respond sexually to a woman (and as I say, I often do), I don’t in most cases reprimand myself. Instead, I attempt to immediately vertically direct that desire. That is, I say “Lord Jesus, thank you for this beautiful sister. She is lovely. Help me now to honor her with my thoughts and actions. Help me to honor you by honoring her. And thank you for my sexuality. It is beautiful. I give my sexuality to you.” As a married man, I also have the luxury of thinking very sexual thoughts about my wife, intentionally short-circuiting any lingering thoughts which dishonor the lady in question. When an unmarried man (which was my state twice) I found it helpful to actively thank God for any woman I was tempted to sexually undress. Again, turning temptations into praises of God’s love and provision (in my singleness I sensed I was called one day to be married), I affirmed my sexuality but also took responsibility for it to keep it from becoming a means to dishonor God, another person for whom He died, or/and myself. This overly long point centers on one main idea: Sexuality and sexual feelings are GOOD. God made them. Our responsibility as Christians is to have self-control regarding them yet also to praise God for their existence. As a high-sex individual, this helped me not confuse the sin of lust with the sensuality God Himself made me to experience.

3. Sexuality as God created it is about relationship; it is meant to be part of a whole life shared between two people. Or, if someone is called to singleness, I believe sexuality is meant to be part of a balanced sensual / spiritual reality. The touch of silk is a way to luxuriate in the senses… a breath of wind on one’s face… sunlight streaming through a church window during a hymn…

I taught a class on the Old Testament recently, and the point of the material I was using was simple. The entire Old Testament law was about worship. Every single thing Israel is told to do, all those crazy and ornate minutia-based forms and actions, were to direct the People of God’s eyes upward toward God. That is how I think we should view sexuality. If I see — forgive the specificity, but lets get honest — a woman’s breasts partially bared and I respond to that cue instantly — the next instant I hope (and try to insure) my heart rises in worship to God. I don’t have to say, “Oh, no, I saw a sexy BREAST!” Rather, I can say, “Lord, you made such a beautiful creation. Thank you for it. Help me to govern my heart and desires so that I don’t usurp that with which I am not in relation.” No, I don’t pray such flowery prayers in the real moments. It is more like “God, thanks for breasts. Thank you that my wife’s are lovely, and that I can enjoy them later! Meanwhile, help me not be a male jerk by staring at this sister’s chest instead of respectfully looking at her face while talking to her and otherwise directing my glances where they should be. Let even my eyes worship you in obedience!” Still too flowery, but I hope the idea is there.

4. Pornography is the worship of the penis. This is an idea from Second-Wave feminism, and has many deeper resonances, and frankly I also think it is deeply resonant with Scripture. Our culture is sick with penis-worship. And I speak here of both the Christian and secular cultures. Christian hierarchalists literally argue that because a man is a man (biologically defined via the penis, y’all!) he is to rule over the one who doesn’t have that appendage. Idiocy. Insanity. Busted theology. And a huge block in between not only men and women, but also between mere lust and sexuality as an act / attitude of worship.

As a guy, I have to say that the poor little penis (and they are ALL little when men are afraid, or lost, or fear-filled), can’t carry the weight of being a god. No wonder some men, unable to understand sexual excitement as part of a wholistic reality, turn what God meant as a conduit of love into a weapon of violence and hatred (that is, rape). While I am not willing to make a direct A-B connection between porn and rape (some of the Third Wave stuff has me wondering on that score), I do think there is more than an accidental connection. At the least, porn and rape share a reductionistic world view where all meaning is reduced to penetration. Rape takes it one more step, namely, that penetration is a raw assertion of power. Even the poet John Donne uses this horrific phrase to describe a virgin bride being penetrated: “he gently disemboweled her.” So, yes, the penis has a terrible legacy which porn both aids and establishes.

5. Porn consumption is about masturbation; that is its purpose and its goal. I am not going to say that all masturbation, even that done without porn or sexual fantasies, is wrong. I don’t think a married man should be telling those walking in singleness how to deal with that issue, frankly. I’ll trust their dialogue w/ God and others to work it out. But when it comes to literally snapping sexuality off into its own compartment — for most Christian porn-users a secret compartment — via the porn/masturbation cycle this is so destructive. Sexuality outside its porn context becomes undesirable, because sexuality (and this is something everyone from secular sexperts to Christian theologians would agree on) becomes bonded to the “object” of its repeated exercise. God meant that for a positive set of reasons. A man gets “used to” doing certain things his wife likes, and she in turn might enjoy doing specific things he likes. These things might get boring sometimes, but on the other hand, they also become the basic enjoyments that “always work” when more adventurous moments do not work. More specific yet, the visual sights each has of the other during sex become sexual cues that work even away from the bedroom. It is all good, almost a parallel to worship vertically… but subverted by porn, which usurps those otherwise bonding cues and links them to pixels on a monitor / TV screen or words / photos on a page. “One can’t have two masters…” even in the bedroom this is true.

6. Porn addicts cannot fight alone. Porn is a drug. Really. It creates chemical reactions in the body which, once developed, require porn to once again be experienced. There is a 12-Step manual for Sex Addicts known as The White Book, and if Jim or others here realize porn use is not something they have real control over, they should go on line and attempt to discover if any S. A. groups are meeting near them. If not, perhaps there are online communities (though being on line for a porn addict is a bit like being in a liquor store — behind the counter! — for an alcoholic). Others here may have additional ideas. But addiction of any kind isn’t something where “I prayed the prayer and now I’m better.” God Himself makes accountability one to another central in how the Church is supposed to work, and we American Evangelicals are usually terrible at accountability (recent events regarding our leaders tells us that much!).

So much more to say, but I’ve said WAY too much.

Blessings on CBE and all of you here.

Jon Trott / Chicago / Jesus People USA Ev. Cov. Church