The CBE Scroll

Comment by PS(anafter-thought)

February 28, 2009 @ 10:06 am

We aren’t teaching enough Biblical literacy. That leads people to believing what other people say about the Bible.

Comment by Kate

February 28, 2009 @ 4:28 pm

I was directed to this book a few years ago and love it. It is well thought out and the arguments are well made. I recommend it often.

I think you are right with the issue of young people going back to old thinking. My husband and I often talk about conservative fundamental churches teaching the Bible and theo while others don’t. It is hard to find one that teaches theo and Bible well while at the same time teaching equality of persons in all areas. It is what we struggle with in our area. So we attend a comp. church because we cannot find another, but it will not change my thinking on the issue of women. They can serve wherever they feel called!

It is also difficult because, as a woman who is a public speaker, I am often asked that can’t my husband be the one to speak or at least speak with me! Mind you I am the expert on the topic of which I speak and he does not feel called to speak as I do. Yet, I get so aggravated at those that think he should speak BECAUSE he is a man. It gives him more legitimacy because of his gender, not his knowledge.

Comment by jlp

February 28, 2009 @ 7:33 pm

I think it might be partly as a result of porn. Porn glorifies female willingness to do men’s will, so the thought of women being obedient to men (learned though our porn’s emphasis on women obediently giving themselves over sexually to men) may seem “normal” to some of these young people. After all, they grew up in a porn saturated culture, and probably some of their fathers were porn users.

I wonder if these churches that stress female obedience also stress that males shouldn’t use porn. And if they do, do they stress it as much as they stress female obedience?

Comment by Charis

February 28, 2009 @ 7:52 pm

Para church ministries such as “Focus on the Family” and “Family Life Today” have influenced millions- across denominational lines- through their radio programs and through books they promote and/or publish which have a vast audience. I think that is one BIG source of the trends the OP has observed.

Comment by Amanda

February 28, 2009 @ 10:23 pm

I know that at least in my circles (Reformed), complementarianism has become equated with orthodoxy, to the point of being made an essential doctrine. Egalitarianism is increasingly seen as a sign of outright apostasy (or, at the very least, the doorway to apostasy). I was (and remain) attracted to the Reformed belief of the full authority and sufficiency of Scripture for all of life and aspects of the church, including the emphasis on solid expositional teaching. I am hardly alone in being a 20-something who has had that same experience. However, at least where I live, it’s difficult, if not impossible, to find a church with the same theological convictions, yet teaches mutual submission in marriage (I’m not sure where I stand on the issue of women in ministry).

Comment by HFOR

February 28, 2009 @ 11:53 pm

Kate, I am in a similar situation. In fact, my husband WANTS me to speak as he believes I am better at public speaking than he is. I am at a crossroads of choosing to move into speaking in the secular world or the Christian world. I am leaning toward the secular world, because I believe it will be the more respectful in regard to my gender…How sad is that? I wonder how many other women the church has lost for the same reason. My spiritual mother is going to speak at a youth conference in Dallas–looking at the website, she is the only female listed as the speaker. It showed me how far the church still has to go before it will allow women to use the gifts God has given them. It also seems rather narcissistic to me to presume that God could/would only use men…Power corrupts, I guess.

Comment by Amanda B

March 1, 2009 @ 1:31 am

Like the other Amanda I have been in circles which are Reformed. I trained at an evangelical theological college [in an Anglican diocese where one year the archbishop gave 3 public lectures on why he was protestant, evangelical and reformed - oddly enough not on why he was Anglican ;)] and the college was complementarian fairly uniformly. The student body was mainly in the age range 25 – 35 and some of the strongest supporters of female submission were young women. (I was about 25 years older than most of the students.) In parishes of that diocese I have found that it was often the older women who questioned the strong stance the diocesan leadership took against women’s ordination.
I spent some time thinking about why the younger women supported the teaching so strongly (having changed my position while I was there to an egalitarian one). A number of possible reasons did come to mind.

1. The teaching on this had gained a higher profile in the diocese due in part to a few very passionate clergy who led growing churches. They were, after all, faithfully preaching the gospel. Keen young Christians, impressed by their ministry could tend not to question this teaching.

2. AFES (Australian Fellowship of Evangelical Students) tends to follow a complementarian model in their leadership and a lot of the students passing through these groups accept it as part of the teaching.

3. We are supposed to submit to one another and so submission will ‘feel’ like the right thing to do.

4. The young have limited life experience. I have seen one young woman, who used to agree completely with the teaching come to realise its limitations and the negative effects it can have in her marriage. She now sees the teaching as encouraging arrogance in her husband.

5. For some women (hopefully not many) it can be a cop out. It means that they are ultimately not responsible for the decisions being made.

Comment by Liz

March 1, 2009 @ 1:35 am

JLP…in some circles, the use of pornography may have influenced the increase of submission of women (particularly in secular circles) but in our experience, the young people who are reverting to headship and men in leadership are doing so because of the teaching which is put across by the type of groups already mentioned. Christian bookshops have a lot to answer for as they promote gender specific books constantly and if there are any egalitarian books, they are put on the bottom shelf or in some other obscure place.

Of the weddings we have attended recently where the couple have been very concerned to have ’servant leadership’ and ‘willing submission’ preached, it is because they come from wholesome families and conservative churches where they are being taught that mutuality is another name for ‘feminism’ which has been the main cause of the breakdown of the family (in their minds)

People are also concerned that acceptance of women in leadership roles will hasten the acceptance of homosexuals in the pulpit and same-sex marriages. What a travesty to even compare the two!

Comment by Kate

March 1, 2009 @ 8:01 am

HFOR,
I left the secular world of speaking and teaching. While there, I was very much accepted for what I knew and my expertise. I was fortunate in that the domestic violence agency I worked for allowed me to begin a faith based initiative. But when you work in a secular agency, that means ALL religions, which I did not have a problem with at first. Still don’t really. But, what I found when teaching at churches that were not Christian, especially those such as Unitarian Universalist, were rooms filled with women who used to belong to Christian mainline churches – until they came forward to talk about their abuse and seek help. They received such condemnation and lack of support that they left the Christian church and went where they were accepted – and this is what they found. They were embraced and accepted for where they were at and felt honored and respected. So I left the secular agency in hopes to educate and enlist the Christian church in this important ministry. And hence I find myself with constant struggle in this area.

So yes, it is very sad that in order to be honored, respected and seen as worthy of our calling, we must go OUT of the church. I am still in the battle because I believe with all my heart that this is the church’s mission – and I will continue till God directs me otherwise. But, it is a battle, and sometimes I am weak and tired, like today. Then, I must rely on Him all the more. But I would appreciate all your prayers.

Comment by jlp

March 1, 2009 @ 9:37 am

Liz,

I think its easier for young women to accept a one way submissive position because our culture constantly teaches women to do that sexually. I do realize there are groups within the Christian community who are working hard to teach women one way submission. But we don’t know how much the Christians teaching this are also influenced by porn, because porn use is underground in the Christian community. There are men (and church leaders) in conservative evangelical families that are using porn that no one would suspect use it. Remember how Anca said that her friend’s pastor-grandfather would really pressure women to stay in their place on Sunday, and then watch porn movies during the week.

Of course, we are coming out of a culture in which it was expected that men would dominate women. And that culture still prevails in the Christian community’s attempts to create a one way submissive relationship between men and women. But we must realize that the culture of male dominance and female submission may also be influencing this teaching. Lots of conservative Christians who believe in male hierarchy are using porn.

Comment by jlp

March 1, 2009 @ 9:39 am

I left a word out again. I meant to say at the end of my last post:

But we must realize that the culture of male dominance and female submission present in porn may also be influencing this teaching. Lots of conservative Christians who believe in male hierarchy are using porn.

Comment by jlp

March 1, 2009 @ 9:41 am

I’ve known of Christian conservative families where wives felt they had to submit to their conservative Christian husband’s use of porn. Or they were told by their conservative Christian husband to submit to their use of porn.

However, that doesn’t mean all conservative Christians are using porn. Some are very much against porn, and even work to help men stop using it.

Comment by Liz

March 1, 2009 @ 5:15 pm

Yes, we have known Christian wives whose husbands were watching things which were unsavoury and often it was only after the women had left that they told us.
We have tried to encourage wives to tell someone when their husbands are involved but the teaching of submission is so strong. Often, a woman believes that if she is the ideal wife, then her husband will change which is sad and this thought keeps many women in bondage. Of course, most Christians who teach on headship would not encourage a wife to remain silent but that is the nature of the teaching….it brings out imbalance in the hearers.

Comment by Cheryl Toliver

March 1, 2009 @ 6:10 pm

It seems to me these churches are falling back on the social norms the early church at first tried to overcome, but then also fell back into. The church is suppose to be the body of Christ, the Kingdom of God, where all are equal before God, as Paul says, no male-female, Jew-Gentile, slave-free. From the end of Paul’s letter to the Romans, it’s clear there were women leaders in the early church, but patriarchy was re-exerted and women were eventually excluded.

It also seems to be a model of the church based on women’s position after the fall, instead of prior to the fall. It therefore structures the church according to our sinful nature, instead of the redeemed state to which Christ’s death and resurrection has already restored us – our equality before God.

As women leaders in the church, we need to emphasize this to the young, both men and women. If we are to live out God’s redeeming love in Christ in the world, it means treating and accepting everyone, but especially those called to Christ by the Holy Spirit, as equal to everyone else, and that includes their calls to service in the church.

Comment by Trevor

March 1, 2009 @ 6:21 pm

I too read that book when it first came out Pam and was very encouraged by it as Loren Cunningham was such a well respected leader in world missions. We could have been convinced by his optimism and almost prophetic outlook that things would soon turn in favor of gift based ministry and leadership in the church world-wide. Perhaps, at the time of writing there was very good reason for such optimism.

I well remember that it was at a time when Liz and I were just discovering the huge body of literature that was now out there supporting biblical equality. We felt then that we were on the crest of the wave of positive change. In some circles I think that the possibility remains true. But what has happened in the US, and Australia has followed suit, is that conservatives dug in and equality was wrongly equated with the feminist agenda. Hence the plethora of teaching to combat this trend in the more fundamentalist and reformed churches.

Amanda B. (comment 88819) has summarized the situation well from an Australian perspective. Her point in 4, is worthy of note, “The young have limited life experience etc.” Liz and my present position is to keep plugging away faithfully, waiting for the time when the young (or older) married do, with the benefit of experience and hindsight, become disenchanted and seek another way forward.

In the meantime I would be very interested in the comments of other people from around the world and their perceptions of this discussion. That is, what are the trends that are evident in your part of the world? For example, I understand that the theological landscape in the UK, in respect to women in church leadership and the home, is quite different to our own. Is that true?

Comment by Sarah

March 1, 2009 @ 10:10 pm

Jlp – the tendency toward female subordination is alive and well in our “enlightened” culture, and it’s definitely no surprise that it features so strongly in the darkest corners of society. However, there’s also a trend that tells girls and women that their sexuality is a source of validation and freedom, even power. Thus we have “pole dancing” workouts and teens stripping on social networking sites. Girls and women get the idea that seduction is power. Both men and women degraded, regardless of who thinks they’re in charge.

Comment by Sarah

March 1, 2009 @ 10:32 pm

I know much of what we see in the evangelical world is discouraging, but I see some of the “hardening” of comp stances in the church in a positive light. It means they’re fighting to hold on. Remember how many legitimate changes in the church have sparked a backlash before they took hold. I really believe that God brings about change in His time. Definitely not easy for us right now. But it seems to me that the egalitarian presence is stronger now than ever – not just those opposing us. I find the timing of this conflict interesting. Despite de facto comp control of much of the evangelical infrastructure, they can’t ultimately shut egals out the way they might have in the past. There are too many thoughtful egal voices out there and too much good scholarship available to anyone seeking.

Comment by Christy

March 1, 2009 @ 10:38 pm

Perhaps this trend is also a symptom of being closer to the last days where Satan’s influence is increasing worldwide. Satan hates all humans, but it seems he especially hates women. Wherever there is heavy spiritual darkness and oppression, women usually are being subjugated and abused. In contrast, when Jesus walked the earth He lifted women up to their true dignity and worth.

If possible, the antichrist spirit will try to deceive the very elect – including convincing them that they are serving God by subjugating women. Also, Satan uses chaos to bring in oppression. As our society breaks down, people are more willing to accept totalitarianism just to experience a sense of order – even at the loss of freedom. Perhaps some Christians are doing this in accepting patriarchal teachings.

Comment by Sarah

March 1, 2009 @ 10:52 pm

While ideological comps have rallied to the cause and have recruited avid followers by equating their position with biblical fidelity, I believe there is a significant portion of the church willing to reconsider presuppositions. There are comps who have moved much closer to egal practice, if not adopting the name. I think there are young leaders who feel free to ask questions they might not have a generation ago (Jocelyn Fincher ["Ruby Slippers"] and her husband come to mind, as does Sarah Sumner, despite her protestations). Sometimes it might not feel like it, but I see progress despite the barriers.

Comment by Sarah

March 1, 2009 @ 10:57 pm

Christy – we definitely can’t forget the spiritual dimension of this, that’s for sure. :-)

Comment by jlp

March 2, 2009 @ 7:30 am

Sarah you said:

Jlp – the tendency toward female subordination is alive and well in our “enlightened” culture, and it’s definitely no surprise that it features so strongly in the darkest corners of society. However, there’s also a trend that tells girls and women that their sexuality is a source of validation and freedom, even power. Thus we have “pole dancing” workouts and teens stripping on social networking sites. Girls and women get the idea that seduction is power. Both men and women degraded, regardless of who thinks they’re in charge.

So true, so true. Girls and women are being given the message that they can be given by power by using seduction. It’s heart breaking to see this.

Comment by joanne

March 2, 2009 @ 9:46 am

I am pastoring a church that is attracting an interesting group of people. They are ones who are so tired of hearing the complimentarian line. What I hear is that it is actually refreshing to hear just plain ole biblical preaching, kingdom preaching instead of a constant stream of advice on the family. Mind you I think we need good teaching on family but churches seem to focus on teachings about marriage and submission instead of preaching the kingdom.

One can also be highly biblical and word centered and teach mutuality.

I am very concerned about those who teach that the complimentarian view must be adhered to if one is truly saved or truly a christian. I think that is an addition to the gospel.

Comment by Christy

March 2, 2009 @ 9:55 am

Amen, Joanne. I agree with you totally. Not only can one be highly biblical and word centered and teach mutuality, I can not see how one avoids doing so and still be faithful in his or her exegesis of Scripture.

Comment by Kim

March 2, 2009 @ 11:06 am

This is my first time commenting, but I wanted to share how refreshing it is to read comments written by committed, educated Christians who know that our God values and empowers women, too.

Over at boundlessline.org, a ministry of Focus on the Family for young people, there is a discussion going on about whether or not a woman who is raped by her husband is “at fault” for the rape if she denied him sex.

I’m heartbroken over how many young people misunderstand the Bible’s teaching on women – so much so that they would even believe that her lack of submission justifies marital rape!

I agree with Joanne. Too many churches today spend too much time teaching about family and marriage and not enough time teaching about the Kingdom of God. So much so that I sometimes wonder if we’ve begun to idolize family at the expense of God.

Thanks for this blog! I’ve been encouraged today!

Comment by Frank

March 2, 2009 @ 1:07 pm

As someone whose own roots are Reformed and Baptist, I empathize with Amanda and others who find themselves “strangers in a strange land” because while they still firmly believe such Reformed doctrines that salvation is by God’s grace alone, appropriated through Christ’s redemptive work as Prophet, Priest and King; that the Bible, as God’s inspired and authoritative Word, is the final measure by which all Christian belief and practice is to be measured; that the church is constantly to reform its beliefs and practices when the Holy Spirit, through careful study of Scripture, calls for such change; and that the priesthood and prophethood is the calling and ministry of all Spirit-filled believers, not just of an elitist clergy–when they try to truly and consistently apply these same Reformed doctrines to today’s Reformed churches’ beliefs and practices, instead of being given a serious hearing, they are branded as heretics! As I have related elsewhere, I experienced such rejection myself.

And some of you may recall, that when I first expressed my opposition to the current Semi-Arian view of the Trinity that so many evangelicals propound, I was angry that some of the proponents of this heresy were Reformed theologians and scholars, who knew that not only the Nicene Creed, but also many of the earlier Reformed theologians rejected this teaching as heretical. Yet they promoted this false teaching, as some of them plainly admitted, to have a theological grounds for their permanent subjugation of women. But this is not something I wish to dwell on, so I will say no more about it.

I would also agree with Christy that the conflict we see going on in both the church and world is a manifestation of the anti-christ spirit preceding the last days. I think of the analogy that Dr. Shirley Guthrie made in his book, Christian Doctrine. The life, death and resurrection of Christ is to the end of Satan’s kingdom what D-Day in WWII was to the end of Hitler’s Third Reich: The decisive battle had been won, the victory of the Allies made certain; while the ultimate defeat of the enemy, regardless of the fierceness and destructiveness of their resistence, was inevitable.

And of course there were several counteracts made by the Nazis, the most fierce being the battle of the Bulge, where they attempted to stall and reverse the victorious march of the Allies. And even during the Battle of the Bulge, when it looked like the Nazis just might do it, divine intervention in the form of reinforcements from the sky, furthered the Allied advance and the Nazis’ defeat.

While I don’t know how near we are to predicted events like the Great Apostasy, the rise of Anti-Christ, the Tribulation and the Second Coming, I do believe the Enemy knows his time is short and is going to do everything he can to delay the advance of the Church and its world mission, whether he pits Christian men and women against each other when they should be working together as full partners in preaching the Gospel and doing works of justice, righteousnes and peace; or causing division by sowing and promoting heresies of various sorts; or by outside persecution. So we must wear God’s armour, war in the Spirit, and press on ’til the Heavenly Reinforcements arrive.

Comment by Amanda

March 2, 2009 @ 2:13 pm

Exactly! It’s the seeming refusal to apply semper reformanda to issues such as male/female relationships that I find so frustrating. Believing in mutuality does not make you a heretic, nor is complementarianism the gospel. You have no idea how much it excites me to run across sites such and see that I am not the only one!

Comment by Amanda

March 2, 2009 @ 2:14 pm

Make that “sites such as this one.”

Comment by Sarah

March 2, 2009 @ 3:03 pm

Kim -glad you could join us :-). I looked at the Boundless blog – how incredibly sad that sincere Christians can be so wrong on this, yet believe they are so right. It looks like most of the commenters did an admirable job in trying to correct the error. I especially appreciated the guys (like Khalil) who took such a clear stand. The phrase “straining at gnats and swallowing camels” comes to mind when I read the comments of those who twist Paul’s wonderful teaching of mutual submission, service, and authority – all in the context of dedication to God – (I Cor. 7:2-5) into entitlement and imply that married men are incapable of self-control. Not to mention the complete lack of understanding of the dynamics of control and self-centeredness that go into this kind of abuse. Again, my hat goes off to all of the commenters who stood up for truth and love so articulately and passionately. I’ll say a prayer or two for all involved in the discussion.

Comment by Kate

March 2, 2009 @ 3:06 pm

Kim,
I just checked in at boundless and was heart sick. To keep couching the discussion of marital rape in the issue of a woman sinning first is just reprehensible! I did send them an email about it, but it was awful to read the comments. So much misunderstanding by men and women. Then I clicked on their homepage and there is an article about “Practical Submission” in which someone asks a question about how many decisions the husband gets to make and the wife must submit to, and the answer is basically, all of them.
Question: “For example, does it mean that after careful research and serious consultation with his wife, a husband has the final say on:

How many kids to have? What type of contraception to use — NFP or artificial contraception? How the kids should be schooled — at home, public or parochial? Whether the wife should be stay-at-home mom or work outside the home?

Where to live geographically? Whether or not to be a homeowner? Whether to move for a job?

What church to go to?

Whether or not to invest money, in say, a 401k or college savings plan?

What about a gut-wrenching, horrible issue — like, a kid gets diagnosed with life-threatening cancer, and the parents strongly differ on whether they should treat it aggressively, or go with hospice care? After talking about it and doing the research, does the husband still have the final say?

Answer: “In a word, the answer I’d give to your question is yes.”

So sad, my heart hurts.

Comment by Kate

March 2, 2009 @ 3:09 pm

to be fair, there were those who set the record straight on Boundless, so I want to give them accolades for doing so, but I am still sad.

Comment by Donald Guffey

March 2, 2009 @ 4:15 pm

It is truly sad to know that many young people wish to resurrect such harmful doctrines. The comp view is responsible for the silencing of untold numbers of warriors in the kingdom! As a Pentecostal and Charismatic believer I have been somewhat untouched by such views until I started reading this website and J lee Grady’s book ” Ten lies the church tells women”. My realm of Christendom is very egalitarian ( my denomination ordains women as pastors elders and evangelists and Sunday schools are typically not split by gender and the teachers are most often women.) the true weight of the comp view sadly does seem to rest on the more mainline denominations. As a 21 year old male I am disgusted by the doctrines of male superiority perpetrated by men who just seem to “Want Some” and seem to be controlled more by members of their body way south of their brain and heart. I am even more sickened by the fact that women, young women at that! will defend such perversion. Whether it be because of porn or whatever,it is truly a doctrine of devils. I hope that my generation will arise together and put an end to such heresy and that we will keep what we need to from our forefathers and (unspoken) of foremothers and forget that which is not worth keeping and press on to a brighter more loving intimate (with God) more equal church in the future. May we be the Church and the people that God originally intended us to be. My generation is not lost as long as there are those like myself who will fight for Equality in the church. CBE young people join me in praying for this cause and fighting this fight and we will overcome by the blood of the lamb and by the word of our testimony in Jesus name, Amen and Amen

Comment by Kate

March 2, 2009 @ 5:29 pm

Donald, another great book… 10 lies… but I think the reason it is so easy to resurrect is that it never really died in the first place, wasn’t even dormant really.

Comment by Sarah

March 2, 2009 @ 6:11 pm

Kate – the events over at Boundless might be sort of an opportunity in disguise. Obviously the majority of folks over there were disturbed by the wrong-headed ideas about rape and abuse as well. Given this, as well as the nature of the blog itself and your expertise, perhaps you could offer a thoughtful guest post with advice and resources for those in crisis or at risk and those who want to help. Given the nature of Boundless, full-blown egalitarian correctives would probably not be received well. However, comp teaching emphasizes that the husband is supposed to base his leadership in love, sacrifice and service, and I think that focusing on those ideals – which are truly Biblical – could go far.

Comment by Kate

March 2, 2009 @ 6:24 pm

Sarah,
I may just offer that. I did send a rather long email explaing the issue, but they say they do not respond to emails. But perhaps if I offer a guest entry, they may. I’ll try. And yes, I do interact on these types and use them as teaching moments, a redeeming bright spot in it all.

Comment by Kate

March 2, 2009 @ 6:34 pm

and can I say I hate the term Octomom! How degrading, no matter how you feel about this issue, she is still made in His image.

Comment by Sarah

March 2, 2009 @ 7:49 pm

Kate – amen re: “octomom.” We’re so used to thinking of things in sound bites that it can be way too easy to accept dehumanizing terms and make judgements without being thoughtful. And I’m glad there’s someone like you to reach out in situations like this, though I could see it getting frustrating at times. Re: the original topic of this thread – one of Satan’s strategies is to divide and conquer. When the egal/comp debate is framed in terms of orthodox/heretic, *using criteria other than those given in the Bible,* dangerous division occurs in the Body of Christ, not to mention a serious theological error that potentially compromises the gospel itself. This is nothing new in the church, but it needs to be countered. I see two ways of doing this that may be very effective in dealing with other conservative evangelicals. First, proactive involvement in ministry that all serious Christians hold dear. We don’t have to compromise our convictions to build on the common ground that 99% of Scripture gives us.

Comment by Sarah

March 2, 2009 @ 8:18 pm

… Second, call out the hard-line comps on their distortion of core doctrines that evangelicals hold dear. We’ve done that to a degree with the Trinity. Unfortunately, due to the way the issue was framed, many evangelicals view the debate as between egal and comp positions and align themselves accordingly. Maybe we should move the debate back a step. It seems that the issue is not simply that of which view of the Trinity is correct, which is important. But – *how dare any group co-opt such a fundamental, sacred, and mysterious doctrine (which orthodox Christians of various stripes have sought to plumb for millenia), proclaim themselves the arbiters of truth in its interpretation, and use their conclusions as the definition of orthodoxy to “excommunicate” a group of fellow believers….in a debate over a !secondary issue!*. And by tying their questionable interpretation to God’s very nature, they equate dissent with undermining the nature of the Gospel itself. Where is this in Scripture?

Comment by Sarah

March 2, 2009 @ 8:43 pm

… I don’t have any illusions about ideological comps running headlong into egal arms, but I think that there are more than a few evangelicals who value “sola scriptura” and “whosoever believes” enough to recognize the danger even if they aren’t egal. Comp leaders have proclaimed themselves the defenders of Biblical truth. I think a lot of Bible-believing Christians would be shocked to see how some leading comps have distorted the basics. We are Christians first, egals second. By shining the light on first-order issues, calling for faithful adherence to that by which evangelicals are defined, we not only are standing up for what should never be compromised to begin with but we might help reframe the gender debate to a more appropriate level.

Comment by Lin

March 2, 2009 @ 9:27 pm

“Actually, I feel a sense of things turning backwards – at least in the US.”

Oh how I agree with this. I have not had time to read all the comments so this may have been mentioned already. Yes, we are going backwards in many churches. The gender issue has become primary gospel..even a salvation issue with many. But this is really an issue of works salvation. Many cannot see that they are asking for rules, roles and formula’s to be a good Christian. They are not asking, how can I eat His flesh and Drink His blood to follow Him as Jesus told us.

My concern is even bigger than women in the pulpit. My concern is that there are too many living out a ‘role’ and thinking this is salvation but may not have regenerated hearts. The focus is off the main thing and satan is delighted to have turned hearts to works.

I can see Sarah’s comment as I write and she says it best: We are to be Christians first.

I asked a question on another blog that I saw a man ask on a gender blog a few days ago. And I think this question gets to the heart of the whole gender teaching: How can women be Christlike since Christ was male?

How would our comp brothers and sisters answer this since they make so much of gender roles?

Comment by Lin

March 2, 2009 @ 9:41 pm

One more thing, the comps have defined the issue for us and ‘he who defines, wins’. Since many are biblically illiterate this tactics works. The comps have been able to use fearmongering to keep folks from even considering another interpretation on this secondary doctrine. We have seen it with their use of the words, liberal, feminist, unbiblical, plain reading of scripture, rebellion, etc. They do not debate content much at all. Ever notice that? They just use these words because that is what they know.

I have studied Gen with comps before and asked gently such things as ‘where is that expressed clearly’ when someone refers to Adam’s authority over Eve before the fall. It is amazing what you hear from them that is not clear at all. They become uncomfortable because this is what they have heard all their lives. If they could only see that they are teaching folks to live out the consequences of the fall. That is NOT redemption.

Comment by joanne

March 3, 2009 @ 8:15 am

Another disturbing doctrinal change is the doctrine of original sin. When i grew up original sin was disobedience toward God when God had clearly prohibited eating from the tree and Adam and Eve disobeyed. Hence forth all humans were plunged into sin. Now the doctrine among complimentarians is that the woman usurped her head and the man was submissive to his wife and all humanity was plunged into marital disorder.

If one follows the logic… redemption is a return to the God-ordained order with Man as head and Woman as follower.

I wonder though, why Christ? Why did Jesus need to die and suffer a cruel death? It seems that cultures around the world have simply ordered women under men… and there is no redemption only atonement through submission.

I think this is a dangerous revision of the core doctrine of original sin affecting many other doctrines including atonement.

Comment by joanne

March 3, 2009 @ 8:24 am

One more thing. When one messes with the doctrine of original sin and the doctrine of God (Trinity) to support one’s view of men and women, all other doctrines in some way are affected including the doctrine of scripture (because it is driven by presuppositions of headship and submission) and the doctrine of the Holy Spirit which was poured out on all flesh. (because it is the Holy Spirit who leads us into truth not the man–because women are easily deceived.

It’s scary… and an addition to the historic understanding of core doctrines of orthodoxy.

Comment by joanne

March 3, 2009 @ 11:12 am

I know this is about doctrine so I will couch my thoughts accordingly. What about the doctrine of humanity ?
I just had an engagement with a person who was spouting the books Wild at Heart and Captivating. And while I affirm the truths about helping people get in touch with their hearts I am so offended by the gender stereotyping that is in the books.

I am so frustrated and tired of being defined by complimentarian authors who use Platonic dualism to define men and women and then call it God’s design. The whole “men are of the mind, want to rescue women and women are of the body, wish to be beautiful and seduce a man”. Those are definintions that are rooted not in scripture itself but in dualistic thinking categories created by non-christian Greeks who worshipped idols.

I think that God defines us differently. and I think that we are each socialized according to our cultural conditioning about what is male and what is female. And I am not saying we are the same. And I think God calls us to godly character that is based on who he is, not who the world says we are. And I think that in relationship with God, we are changed and transformed not into more of what the world says we are as men and women but into his likeness. I don’t think God divides himself in character according to what is male and female. I think God calls us, both men and women to be like him in character. and that includes things like bravery and compassion, justice and mercy, grace and truth.

I feels so mad that any helping curriculum in the church has to be couched in patriarchy and gender language. Sorry for spouting off but I think they have consistently couched doctrine in patriarchial ideas be they past or present ones. I for one am so tired of it.

Comment by Charis

March 3, 2009 @ 3:17 pm

I dunno, Joanne.. I LIKED the book “Captivating” when I read it a few years ago. It was a very healing book for me personally. Can’t be all bad since it’s criticized by CBMW. Here’s a clip from a review at CBMW:

Satan is described as having a unique, increased vengeance toward Eve and women in general because of their beauty and because women give life. The book states, “Satan’s bitter heart cannot bear it. He assaults her with a special hatred. You are hated because of your beauty and power (84-85).” Although we see clearly in Scripture that Satan is a “roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour” (1 Pet 5:8), there is no support for a special vengeful agenda against any subgroup of mankind.

God Himself spoke of the enmity between Satan and the woman. I find much of CBMW’s criticism of the book rings hollow. Makes me wonder if they just don’t want women to discover that we are valued by God? That was the message I took away from the book (which I wasn’t getting anywhere else in Christian circles).

Comment by jlp

March 3, 2009 @ 4:46 pm

Over at boundlessline.org, a ministry of Focus on the Family for young people, there is a discussion going on about whether or not a woman who is raped by her husband is “at fault” for the rape if she denied him sex.

What’s the link?

Comment by jlp

March 3, 2009 @ 4:54 pm

I just went over there and the blog on husbands raping their wives has been closed. A woman named Heather gave a beautiful and God honoring explanation of why marital rape is never right.

She did say something I didn’t agree with, “What about if the wife is withholding sexual relations from her husband? Is that sin? Yes, it is”. I don’t think it’s sin, it just indicates there are unresolved emotional issues that need to be resolved.

But her explanation of why marital rape is never right is so good I wish I could thank her personally for it.

Comment by jlp

March 3, 2009 @ 5:07 pm

Some of the posts from some of the Christian men at boundless.org on this issue of marital rape were truly evil. It’s absolutely shameful that men who have tasted the gift of Christ should use the Bible to justify marital rape. These are the type of Christian men Christian women need to be warned to stay away from.

Comment by Liz

March 3, 2009 @ 5:36 pm

Joanne….it’s OK to vent your frustrations on this blog (as long as you speak respectfully of other groups, which you did) That is one of the functions of The Scroll – to give people a safe place to express what they’re really feeling.

When we first looked at ‘Wild at Heart’ we were horrified and particularly my husband who found the descriptions of what men are like deplorable. And then to ‘blame’ God for that type of behaviour was appalling. There is of course good stuff in all books of that nature, otherwise they wouldn’t sell at all and Charis has shown that God works through lots of things without their being ‘perfect’. We have just got very analytical over the last few years and see hierarchy presented in so many different ways.

As to the FOF site discussion – I thought Heather’s thoughts were excellent as well and maybe someone from there will read this and pass that on to her. But..I didn’t appreciate women being described by CBMW as ‘a subgroup of mankind’

For the record, I also agree with JLP about a woman’s refusal for sexual intimacy as ’sin’. It doesn’t fit any of the bible verses which describe sin and it assumes the Corinthains passage is about commandments rather than practical advice. Come to think of it….many of the ‘debatable’ passages are suggestions for local happenings and not commandments.

Comment by jlp

March 3, 2009 @ 6:00 pm

When does Christ ever force the church to do anything against her will? Never.

When did Christ ever rape his bride, the church? Never.

These men who use the Bible to justify marital rape are not truly listening to the Bible. And they are not imitating the behavior of their Savior.

Comment by Sarah

March 3, 2009 @ 7:28 pm

Re: “withholding” – I think it comes down to motive (and this goes for both men and women). There can be many legitimate reasons for lack of intimacy – relationship problems, physical pain, emotional trauma from abuse or rape. For one partner to insist on sex when the other is dealing with any of these issues is at best insensitive and may well be sinful, selfish, and abusive. A couple may mutually agree to “fast” for prayer (Paul describes this as legitimate for a finite time). Christians may abstain during menses for reasons of conscience or preference. But it’s definitely wrong when either spouse uses sex (or the lack thereof) to control, manipulate, punish, or exact revenge. Using the other person as a means to personal gratification without regard to their well-being or the sanctity of marriage defiles God’s design.

Comment by HFOR

March 3, 2009 @ 8:08 pm

RE: Wild At Heart…I co-facilitate groups for men who are court mandated following domestic violence episodes. One night a man reported he had been reading Wild at Heart. He then directed a superior attitude, gaze and stern voice to me (a female), and stated, “You know, [my name], Jesus was a warrior.” I took a moment to formulate a respectful and thoughtful response. Before I could say any thing, another member of the group (a male) innocently asked, “Really, I thought he was a carpenter?” (I smiled and internally thanked God!)

Comment by SingingOwl

March 3, 2009 @ 11:22 pm

“Why Not Women” is an excellent book for many reasons, and when I first read it I was optimistic and hopeful that what Loren Cunningham said was, at long last, going to be true. I am no longer so optimistic. As others have mentioned, I think Focus on the Family had a lot to do with a complimentarian view being seen as the ONLY view for evangelical, Bible-focused groups. This is a tragedy. I am tired of constantly being challenged, questioned as to my orthodoxy, told I have a “feminist agenda” and so on.
I wonder if it will ever change. I used to think it would. Now…I wonder. And as I leave my church of 10 years, I know just how uncertain my future is. It is heartbreaking, but I am trying to muster the energy to fight on.

Comment by historyloveralways

March 4, 2009 @ 1:20 pm

Singing Owl,

I’m really sorry to hear how you have been treated in the ministry. I know other women have had similar experiences and it is so tragic.

Comment by Frank

March 4, 2009 @ 2:04 pm

As I have reviewed the latest comments, I have been saddened by how some of our sisters have been ill-treated in churches that, while claiming to be preservers and champions of the Gospel, neither understand the true nature of the Gospel of God’s Present and Future, nor are willing to honesty face its demand for the Blessed Alliance that existed in Eden before the Fall, which marred it; and which we know on the basis of such NT texts as Acts 2, Gal. 3:26-4:7, and 2 Cor. 5:11-6:4, is to be manifested in the life of the Church now, and which will be fully manifested when Jesus returns and reigns on earth. And this understanding of the transforming nature of the Gospel is not only biblical, but something that even Martin Luther believed, though imperfectly. Stephen Boyd, commenting on Luther’s Lectures on Genesis:

Luther can help us here. Part of what the story of Adam and Eve discloses is the attempt by the Hebrew people to explain how things came to be the way they were. How did women become subject to men?…Well, the story is an explanation of that. We might look at the narrative not as prescriptive of the way God wants it, but as a descriptive account of the way it came to be for both men and women. Patriarchy was never God’s intention, but a manifestation, or consequence, of human sin. The rule of men and the disastrous effects it has on women and men are a result of rebellion against God and God’s intended order. Implicit in this reading is that the author(s) of the story, like Luther, had a sense that something was wrong here and needed an explanation.

Since this dominating role for men, with its ill effects, is a result ot the Fall, we might expect Luther to go on to say that Christ puts an end to that dominating role and those ill effects and restores equality that was God’s intention in creation. Although Luther…

Comment by Frank

March 4, 2009 @ 4:42 pm

Sorry, the computer I was working on earlier went down before I could complete my previous comment. So I will begin where I left off:

Although Luther expects that this domination-subjection pattern will be done away with in the next world, he thinks it will continue in this world. Here, we see Luther’s pessimistic doctrine of humanity. He believes that the effects of sin are so great that in this life all we can attain is the hope of its actuality. So, the hiearchical institutions–the church, the family, and the state–and men’s dominating role in them will continue until Jesus return (“A House Divided,” THE MEN WE LONG TO BE, pp. 86-87).

And I bring this material up for two reasons. First, to remind ourselves that our position regarding the equality of men and women in the church, the family, and the state is not only a teaching of the Bible, but a truth recognized by some of the leading lights of the Reformation itself. Secondly, it is an unfilfilled promise of the Reformation, just as the Reformed doctrine of the priesthood and prophethood of all believers is also an unfilfilled promise. And it is time that Protestantism lived up to its promise, by remembering not only does the Gospel speak of cleansing from sin and reconciliation with God, but also that we are more than overcomers in Christ, indwelt and empowered by the Holy Spirit. As St. John says, “Greater is the Spirit that is at work in you, than the spirit that is at work in the world” (1 John 4:4, my rendering).

What I am calling us to be, as servants of Christ and ambassadors of God’s Present and Future Kingdom is to be “realistic optimists.” Personal sin, evil, hardheartedness, stupidity–however you may wish to describe the resistence we see both in the Church and in the World to the truth of God’s Kingdom, is real and is not to be taken lightly. Nevertheless, the Lord Jesus Christ is at God’s right hand, with all principalities and powers subject to him. And he, by giving us the Holy Spirit, the Word of God,and the aids of spiritual discipline and warfare, has given us what we need to resist and overcome residual sin and evil in ourselves, in our churches, and in the places of the world he calls us to enter and there fulfill the Great Commission, Matthew 28:18-20.

So where we can work with other Christians on projects and tasks of mutual concern, as Sarah has said, let us do so if we can so work without violating our own conscience and convictions. But never let us compromise the Gospel of Christ, but fully controlled and empowered by the Holy Spirit, let us proclaim and live it in all its fullness.

Comment by Sarah

March 5, 2009 @ 12:19 am

Singing Owl – I wanted to let you know that you and your church were prayed for tonight at a small church prayer meeting in western Wisconsin. I just shared the very general aspects of the situation that you have revealed here and on your blog, without any identification save that you’re part of another denomination in another part of Wisconsin. I wasn’t sure how a “pastorette” prayer request would be recieved by my small-town comp evangelical prayer warriors, but they dove right in :-). Anyway, we haven’t met but after you participated in a thread here some time ago I peeked at your blog and followed a couple bread crumbs online because I was encouraged by what you had to say, especially in the land of milk and, well…milk. Even tho I know I’m not the only conservative egal in Wisconsin it was nice to see proof. Blessings in your journey…

Comment by Frank

March 5, 2009 @ 7:58 pm

For the last week, I have had my devotional reading in 1 and 2 Thessalonians, following the SU guide, ENCOUNTER WITH GOD. And today’s meditation was on 2 Thess 2:13-3:5, one of several Pauline passages I love and which so often encourage me and inspire me as I struggle to follow the Lord and be an effective ambassador of God’s Present and Future Kingdom. This is a follow-up to my previous comments (88875, 88876) which I had meant to be an encouragement but which may have come across more as a lecture. And I believe my gifting and calling is to be a prophetic teacher and counselor like Barnabas was, so I always want to share that which instructs, encourages and equips God’s people while, when like Barnabas and Paul had to at Antioch, contend for the Gospel Faith against those who, for whatever reasons, pervert it. Having said that, let me share the encouragement of God’s Word that I received today, and which I think God wants me to pass on to you, my dear brothers and sisters in Christ.

Eternal Encouragement

“But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold on to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word. As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith. But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen you and protect you from the evil one. We have confidence in the Lord that you are doing and will continue to do the things we command. May the Lord direct your hearts into God’s love and Christ’s perseverance” (2 Thess. 2:13-3:5, TNIV).

And on this text, the commentator gives these words of wisdom and encourgagement:

Paul had good reasons for thinking that the Thessalonians might not survive as Christians, but he had better reasons still for believing that they would. His confidence was not in them but in the Lord (3:4). God is the real subject of these verses, not them.

Comment by Frank

March 5, 2009 @ 8:59 pm

Paul emphasizes THE LOVE OF GOD (2:13,16; 3:5). This is where it all begins; not with our love for God, which is feeble and changeable, but his love for us, which is sure and proven in the cross of Christ. That leads to THE ELECTION OF GOD (2:14). Christians are chosen for a purpose and called to a destiny. The purpose is that they might be transformed by the Spirit and made more and more in reality into people who live for God alone. The destiny is a salvation that ends with sharing in God’s glory. Then there is THE ENCOURAGEMENT OF GOD (2:16; 3:5). Having chosen and called people, God stands with them to strengthen them through the ups and downs of discipleship. Since there is ultimate (“eternal”) encouragement to be found in Christ, surely he will give us the lesser encouragement we need on the journey. These verses are echoed in Romans 8;32. Paul then speaks of THE MESSAGE OF GOD (3:1) that he longs to publicize. This Gospel has transforming power and is the hope of the world. Finally, reflecting on his own experience as a persecuted preacher, he testifies to THE FAITHFULNESS OF GOD (3:3,4). He had ended his previous letter rejoicing that “the One who calls you is faithful” (1 Thess. 5:24) and he has no reason now to doubt the truth of what he wrote then. It is for these reasons that Paul has confidence in their progress and encourages them to “stand firm and hold fast” (2:15). If it were not for God in the equation, this exhortation might be despairing, but with God it is possible! (ENCOUNTER WITH GOD, p.81)

From some of the comments on this present posting, I recognize that many, like myself, are at a difficult place in our journey with God and perhaps also in our service for God and his Kingdom. And I have shared something of my past challenges and struggles, so I will briefly say something of those I have experienced over the last three years, up to the present time: The deaths of two good Christian friends, one my age and whom I’d known 28 years, the other three years older and whom I had known for two years, followed by two weeks of flu like I never had it before; some real reminders of human mortality if ever I needed them.

Then six months before it actually happened, we were notified that our parent company was downsizing and would close our office as of April 1, 2008, and we had to stay til the bitter end if we wanted to claim our severance package and pension. And if any of you have been in that situation, you know how stressful that can be. Plus, in my own case, through various means, God made it clear that he was the One bringing about these drastic changes in my life because he was taking me through a process to make me more like Christ, and to take me to a new place of fellowship and service where I would encourage and equip God’s people in new and unexpected ways. My only choice was yes or no; I said yes, and, oh boy, what an adventure I have been on these last 10 months!

I have experienced God’s presence and support in ways I never expected; I have experienced the presence and working of the Spirit in ways I never expected; and I have, I think, been made a blessing to others, as well as experiencing God’s blessing through others. But I still face challenges, such as being out of work ten months, pounding on doors everywhere, wondering when God is finally going to open the door to my dream job. Right now, all I know is that he is with me, supporting and protecting me, calling me to encourage others who are fellow strugglers, and so that is what I am doing now. Trust in the Lord, and rely on him, whatever the challenges and difficulties. Amen.

Comment by codepoke

March 6, 2009 @ 12:05 pm

Wow. So many comments! I’ve only got a couple minutes, so I’ll have to miss them. I’m sorry to all, and especially if I repeat everyone.

The post is interesting and challenging, and in line with questions I’m asking. I think we live in an age of red herrings, and equality may be one of them. Frankly, the equality battle is almost over, and the egals have won. This book makes that point pretty clear. Equality is just an assumption for people below a certain age. There will be counter-reformations from the comp side, but most comps will end up being softer and softer until the soft egals and soft comps are indistinguishable.

I’m not saying there aren’t still battles worth fighting, and especially in the church, but in society at large it’s not the egal debate that’s going to change the world any more. It did.

I think the actual root problem is one of relational maturity. People are just not able to interact socially any more. We’re too isolated as children, except when we’re treated as cattle at school, and we don’t learn to interact maturely.

My $0.02

Comment by Kathryn

March 6, 2009 @ 2:20 pm

Your comments are enlightening and even encouraging. Keep confessing Galatians 3:28!

Comment by Lin

March 6, 2009 @ 6:18 pm

Frank, your words are such a blessing to me.

Comment by jlp

March 6, 2009 @ 6:22 pm

Donald said

I am even more sickened by the fact that women, young women at that! will defend such perversion.

I feel the same way, Donald. :(

Comment by cockatiel

March 7, 2009 @ 2:39 pm

There will be counter-reformations from the comp side, but most comps will end up being softer and softer until the soft egals and soft comps are indistinguishable.

I hope you are right, but as a person just coming out of a patriarchal church where the young women are not considering college and where the young men are trained from the age of 12 (by attending all of the men’s meetings — there are no meetings for women), I am not optimistic.

Certainly the patriarchal view of families is really being pushed in homeschooling circles, with pro-patriarchy people increasingly being the keynote speaker at homeschool conferences.

Comment by joanne

March 8, 2009 @ 5:20 pm

cockatiel, sounds like the FLDS. makes me shiver.

Comment by Christy

March 8, 2009 @ 7:48 pm

What are the FLDS?

Comment by Lisa

March 8, 2009 @ 10:54 pm

Over a year ago, God called me to the ministry…So in obedience I am finishing my degree in preparation for the seminary and my Masters in Divinity. My own pastor is extremely supportive (egalitarian) and has lent me books out of his own library. So as I go forward into this calling I thought I understood some of the challenges I may have to face as a woman pastor. I thought I had a handle on it until a few weeks ago I was enjoying a streaming audio from a foreign preacher sharing his experiences at the seminary I would like to attend. As I was listening to the “congregation” of the students and faculty verbally giving assent to this preacher…It suddenly hit me- I heard NO women’s voices in the audience. I don’t understand, in so many churches that I have attended over the years, the majority of the congregation are women, some cases 2 to 1 (or more). How is it, that more women are not called into the ministry? I don’t mean to sound naive, really I’m not; but I’m thinking that there must be, just by mere percentages alone, more women called by God into the ministry to preach. I am not trying to be a trouble maker, I am simply trying to serve God, and be obedient…so that I hope and pray that when I have to face Almighty God before the throne I may hear “Well done O good and faithful servant”. I am not going to quit, and I am not going to give up; God will make me stand as I submit to HIM. I will “Humble [myself] under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt [me] at the proper time.” 1 Peter 5:6

But I admit that I have days when I cry out to God to ask him why He called me! I am just not strong enough for this. I know that as I submit to Jesus, He is the one doing the work, but I really understand now so clearly what it means to “take up your cross, and follow Me.” And yet again, as I finish typing this through my tears, I do affirm, “…Greater is He who is in me, than he who is in the world.” 1 John 4:4(b)

Comment by historyloveralways

March 9, 2009 @ 10:01 am

Lisa,

Perhaps you should try to go to work at Willowcreek in South Barrington, IL. They respect and encourage women in ministry.

I think Mars Hill in Michigan (not Mark Driscoll’s Mars Hill) is also egalitarian.

If I were you I would try to find a church that is already practicing egalitarianism to minister in. You will be treated much better there.

Comment by joanne

March 9, 2009 @ 12:06 pm

FLDS

it is fundamentalist latter day saints. A group that practises strict gender roles and polygamy.

women in FLDS are also kept home and uneducated.

Comment by Lisa

March 9, 2009 @ 2:06 pm

Thank you Historyloveralways,
I am currently in a church that is egalitarian, but I just have to be patient, finish my degree and then off to seminary (in God’s timing of course). I have moments every now and then, where it just gets to me…But after I complete my MDiv, I’ll just have to see what God wants me to do.

Comment by Mara

March 9, 2009 @ 3:52 pm

FDLS and perhaps even LDS, say that women get to heaven through their husbands.

Comment by joanne

March 9, 2009 @ 4:51 pm

Lisa, the journey toward wholeness as a woman (in seminary and ministry) is at times a long one. Stuff surfaces from time to time and sometimes feelings are triggered. It takes time and tenacity to take the journey. Don’t be surprised if anger erupts or feelings erupt especially when you run into complimentarian ideals and assumptions coming from people whose opinions you value. Sometimes too… opposition for women is really a backward form of validation–note that. Keep going… God will fight for you and open doors for you in his time. Believe in yourself–God does.

Comment by Lisa

March 9, 2009 @ 10:23 pm

Joanne,
Thank you, your comments were timely, and a blessing.
Numbers 6:24-26 to you!

Comment by Robyn

March 10, 2009 @ 2:42 pm

I really like that book! Sarah Sumner’s “Men and Women in the Church: Building Consensus on Christian Leadership” is another one of my favorites.

We attend a complementarian church because there honestly isn’t a theologically conservative egalitarian church nearby. I think there is actually a teaching that egalitarian beliefs are the equivalent of “liberalism.” How can people not know that there are respected, orthodox scholars and pastors who are egalitarians?

And, yes. Some of it is the fault of Focus on the Family and the like. They think they are doing “family values” a favor by telling women that they have no place outside their homes. What a tragic twisting of biblical truths.

P.S. Nowhere in the bible that I can recall is a woman told to “obey” her husband.

Comment by Robyn

March 10, 2009 @ 3:21 pm

I just orderd the John Stackhouse book…

Reading through other comments, I see good critiques of both Sumner’s book and his. Would someone post more about these two books and what they see as the problems with them? I would so appreciate it.

Comment by Pam

March 10, 2009 @ 6:22 pm

Lisa –
As the original writer of the post, I have simply been enjoying the wonderful comments of so many people on this issue of women being able to fulfill their calling in God and haven’t said anything – until I read your comments.
I remember going to CBE’s conference in Orlando a few years back. Lee Grady (10 Lies the Church Tells Women – author) was a key speaker. He told a story of asking a women friend, a Christian leader, to write an article for his journal, and simply put the issue of women being appropriate ministers to rest once and for all. She said to him, “Lee, I’m tired of defending myself. You do it for me.”
I have been in the ministry for many years – served in 5 churches. They were mainline Protestant churches – an easier venue for a woman to become a pastor. However, theologically, I found myself increasingly feeling less at home in them. And there’s “the rub” for us women – if we find ourselves more of a conservative evangelical type – the more conservative churches often stress the subordination of women. It’s a tricky climate out there still.
However, I have found, and I firmly believe that God will make a way. It isn’t easy, but an easy way never produced a great and Christ-like character. Nevertheless, we must continue to bring forth an understanding of the validity of both men and women in leadership. To do less is to dishonor the work of the Spirit.

Comment by Lisa

March 11, 2009 @ 3:36 am

Pam,
Thank you for your encouraging words. I do find that I am very cautious about sharing the call that God has put on my life; I don’t share this with many people, but not too long ago I was lead to share with my aunt (father’s side of the family who is a music director at a prominent Presbyterian church) God’s call on my life…She paused and then said,” honey, you come by it rightly; you come from a long line of ministers and organists.” So now I jokingly call this a “generational curse”. And mind you, God brought me back from being apostate for 12 years! But I’m sure that my pastor and friends would attest to the amazing changes that God has brought me through in just this last year. And you would not believe the absolute hell arrayed against me just in trying to continue my education, but I’m not stopping and I continue to move steadily forward. The trials don’t get any easier but I really am beginning to be able to “ Consider it pure joy…” (James1:2) because what I gain coming out of the trials is tremendous. Although I do have my days that I waver, overall I am determined to be obedient to God’s call, I trust Him, and He will make a way! I absolutely stand on Proverbs 3:5-6…Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight.
Lisa

Comment by joanne

March 11, 2009 @ 7:35 am

Lisa, that happened to me also… Lot’s of opposition at first. It feels like warfare because women who pursue ministry are interfering with the status quo. Take a class on family systems theory. Pursuing ministry as a woman means that you will upset the equalibrium and the forces that keep the equalibrium will seek to force you back into the mold so everyone can feel calm again. Just being… upsets things. Also remember it’s not always about you… they are uncomfortable, for their anxious reasons–it’s their stuff.

I took all of it personally and thought something was wrong with me that I was experiencing so much opposition. I had few mentors who could help me think it all through. (find a good one) Anyway … take family systems theory… it’s useful for ministry anyway because the church is a family system. It will help process some of the flack you may receive.

Also, you may need to transfer to a friendly school or seminary. Or find a church that is more open. Also seek out friends, other women in ministry to support you in the journey. Gather a circle to meet and pray for one another.

Finally, pray for miracles. Everytime a woman gets a ministry call… it’s a miracle. pray for them and for one another. It takes miracles. It takes God.

I will pray for miracles for you.

Comment by Sarah

March 11, 2009 @ 11:24 am

Codepoke – I think the egal position will eventually win out in the biblically based church, but the battle has a way to go. I see a comp/patriarchal entrenchment, even radicalization, in a large portion of the evangelical community. This isn’t relegated to the fringes; in fact, it seems that some of the “fringes” have been given legitimacy – or at least tolerance – in the greater evangelical community. This doesn’t diminish egalitarian gains; but it means that there can be more resistance to women in ministry for a while as those who (sadly and erroneously) believe orthodoxy itself is at stake close ranks. I think truth will out but it can be discouraging in the meantime. I agree with your comment re: relationships. The church really needs to wake up to where the error in our culture and churches really lies. We need to cling to and defend propositional truth but recognize that that truth is intended to play out in active relationship.

Comment by Sarah

March 11, 2009 @ 11:52 am

I would add that we have lost extended family and community links as well. We have the best-educated (or at least indoctrinated), wealthiest Christians the world has ever seen, swimming in relationship helps, theological resources, devotional materials, and sanctified romance novels and other entertainment, yet we have difficulty connecting with and serving each other, much less those on the outside. It seems to me that much blame for whatever state of affairs the church finds herself in might best be laid at the feet of our inability to really love rather than how well we follow whatever chain of command rules or other system we think will solve our problems. MY $.02 worth :-).

Comment by Lisa

March 12, 2009 @ 3:48 am

Joanne,
Thank you for your prayers. School is going great. Having been a lackluster student in the past, it is remarkable what the Spirit of God is doing through me. As far as course work is concerned- truly it is an unfair advantage…the Spirit really does lead me “into all truth”. God pretty much gives me the answers.

My pastor has been very supportive and has loaned me books out of his own library. He started me out with “Discovering Biblical Equality” which I really enjoyed. He did loan me a couple of other books and it has been a great beginning education in egalitarianism.

The “hell” I referred to is the un-ending financial “attacks” I have had in the last 6 months. An interesting [sic] string of home repairs, car repairs and the like- to absolutely drain my finances. But God is so faithful, He really meets my needs- my bills keep getting met- and I have been able to purchase all my books just as I need them.
I receive miracles from God every week, sometimes every day. I just “fix my eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of my faith.” I just keep on moving forward, and by golly, my needs just keep being met.

And after this week, being hit by a huge family crisis; when I asked for prayer- all my Christian friends really stepped up-wow-I have been so blessed. Of course I know that Jesus “never leaves us or forsakes us.” But to be able to get a tangible sense of that presence is just wonderful.

So please keep praying, and know that I have put you on my prayer list!
Blessings,
Lisa

Comment by joanne

March 12, 2009 @ 6:17 am

Lisa, will keep praying for miracles. thanks for your prayers.

Comment by jlp

March 12, 2009 @ 7:37 pm

Does anyone know of any studies that may link mental illness to the male dominance\female submission teachings within conservative Christian churches?

Comment by Mary Simmons

March 13, 2009 @ 8:41 am

The strong surge to keep woman in a state of subjection rather than teaching God’s word of mutual submission in love is linked to an agenda that is bigger than one church or denomination. I believe the fact that the Baptist church along with many other denominations are becoming just small variations of the Catholic structure (hierarchy, top down, we will tell you what God wants you to know just mind us) is not a coincidence. Prophecy indicates that during the end times there will be a one world religion. This religion will depend on people being brain washed, and obedient. Willing to do what they are told. Those who have placed themselves in positions of spiritual authority over others (instead of acknowledging the authority of Christ over all) will themselves be willing to submit to others higher up on the hierarchal ladder. Not to do so would threaten the very power they hold. The big picture involves getting everyone to submit to one false leader instead of Christ. This is a continuance of a sad series of people bidding for power that is not theirs to claim. The story begins in Genesis.

Comment by Jeanine S. Moss

March 13, 2009 @ 3:14 pm

I was particularly encouraged by Sarah Sumner’s book, “Men and Women in the Church” when I read in her acknowledgements the names of two men who are considered stalwarts of the Restoration Movement (Christian Churches and Churches of Christ), a movement certainly not noted for egalitarianism. There are some individual churches which are less opposed to women in leadership than others but generally it is unheard of. JSM

Comment by SingingOwl

March 15, 2009 @ 2:52 pm

Just a comment to the comment #88874. :-)

Thanks, History Lover! I just want to make clear that I am not resigning my present place of ministry for any reasons related to gender and ministry. The issue is not with the past place of ministry–just with the unlikelihood of a future one.

Hope that made sense.

Comment by joanne

March 15, 2009 @ 8:30 pm

Mary, interesting… i am reminded that patriarchy is not just men over women but a few men over other men and men over women. It’s more than female subordination but subordination of many to a few.

Comment by SingingOwl

March 17, 2009 @ 8:57 pm

Sarah,
I am sorry I missed your comment earlier. Thank you for sharing the prayer request with your little group, and thank you for the encouraging words. I appreciate them very much!

Comment by Christy

March 21, 2009 @ 9:10 am

I agree with you, Mary Simmons, comment #88930.

Another great concern I have is the apostasy away from the gospel of grace – a gospel that clearly states we are sinners by nature, hopeless to heal ourselves; – a gospel that clearly states that our only hope is a savior and that savior is Jesus Christ. This gospel proclaims that Jesus actually took our place on the cross and paid the debt for our sins so that we would be reconciled to God. Without this substitutionary atonement, Christ’s sacrifice is meaningless. The act of being crucified does not automatically equate love. Examples of love are sharing our resources, helping the needy, sacrificing ourselves to rescue others from harm. Running in front of a car is not an act of love unless it is done to push another out of the way of being hit. In the same way, the cross is meaningless unless it had to be done to save us from perishing.

Many are now denying that a loving God would require His Son to be crucified as payment for our sins. They claim the cross was only a demonstration of how much God loves us and wants a relationship with us. But again, deliberately running in front of a car does not automatically prove love – pure insanity could be better argued if saving someone is not the goal.

By denying the necessity of the cross, that only Jesus Christ as our savior had the authority to perform, Christianity loses its distinct message that keeps it irreconcilably separate from other views. Once the cross is no longer a matter of substitutionary atonement, Christianity can then be joined with all other faiths under the banner of a One World Religion. The lie is saying that a One World Religion will usher in world peace, equality, and understanding. In truth it will turn this world into a totalitarian hell. The only true peace and unity is found at the cross through Jesus Christ. But He and that message is being increasingly persecuted and outlawed.

It is only through the true gospel message that biblical egalitarianism finds its proper fruition. We must be extremely careful not to join churches who proclaim egalitarianism while denying the necessity of the cross. Their type of equality is worldly and will lead to the acceptance of a One World Religion that will turn us all into slaves or outlaws. I know there are few churches out there that are both faithful to the gospel message and to egalitarianism, but we can’t afford to compromise. We must challenge these false teachings wherever we find them. Keeping silent is not being more open minded or loving. If we have to, we should meet in homes or start new churches. It’s okay if we are a minority opinion. If God is for us, who can be against us? We are His ambassadors to be His light in this very dark world.

Comment by Jon Trott

March 21, 2009 @ 1:17 pm

To Gloria and LCMM,

Thanks. The mods here asked if I could move the more explicit sex discussion to my blog, which I have done for those interested. http://bluechristian.blogspot.com

But about submission… how did it become so twisted? I think biblical submission is grace (agape) working itself out in human relationships. I often know my own *lack* of grace most by that prickly, angry feeling I get when anyone — my wife, my pastor, a Christian friend — pushes me on something which causes me discomfort to do or think about. That feeling I have learned to identify as pride. I just had it again yesterday, and find it humiliating (yes, that is ironic) to know how quickly I fail to submit to what is good from another.

All submission requires us to be Bereans, carefully examining what is being asked of us no matter what “authority” is asking/telling. But the flip side is also true. We need to be eager to submit to one another (Eph 5:21) out of reverence for Christ. I’ve always considered CBE’s example of this as individuals and as an organization stellar.

We Americans have grown up on the Corporate model of leadership. One person (usually a white guy) behaving as the conduit for the corporate “vision” or “goal.” But that is so far from being biblical. Have we uncritically embraced very modern, very secular concepts, gaging them on widgets sold rather than on fruits of the Spirit?

I think so. And I’m trying not to rail as much on the old-school luddites and imitate more of what I see in CBE and other Egalitarian/Mutuality folks and organizations. Let us model an organic, slow-grow, individual-respecting model of praxis re the Body of Christ. I’ve cried over this stuff often. And it is nice to have somewhere to come and vent and then get enthused again to take up our Egalitarian cross and follow Jesus.

Comment by Liz

March 21, 2009 @ 6:11 pm

That is so true Christy. The gospel is essentially about forgiveness of sin and all other things come because of that. The whole sacrificial system in the OT was to prepare us for the ultimate sacrifice of Christ (the sinless lamb) And yes..it is hard to find churches which preach the Cross and are also egalitarian which is why so many of us stay in churches which do not embrace equality fully. It seems the better option apart from starting another group.

Comment by Pam

March 24, 2009 @ 2:25 pm

Jon (88970) – I appreciate your honest confession of struggling with humility and submission. It is so hard because we do see modeled around us power-brokering, seeking fame, etc. To purposely take the “last seat at the table” as Christ instructed is hard for men and women. I know how many times I have hated “selfish ambition and vain conceit” in myself, that which Paul said to “do nothing from” in Philippians 2:3 – and I’m a woman! How many times I have prayed or thought, “let me do this anonymously, Lord, not letting the “right hand know what the left is doing” and come up short.
I have been reading about the life of St. Francis just to be schooled by that purposeful act of taking a vow of poverty and living up to it, Francis’ care for lepers, etc. It is quite a journey when the goal is holiness and Christlikeness.