Comments on: Personal Story

By: Dr.Shirley

Dr.Shirley — Fri, 01 May 2009 15:33:33 +0000

Kathryn -I was thinking the same thing (about Junia). And maybe Phoebe was the replacement for Stephen (who was killed)? In reality, there WERE more apostles than the 12 or 11 (such as Barnabas, Silas, Paul, Junia, and Timothy), and there were probably a lot more “diakonoi” than the named ones in Acts and Romans. And who knows how many of them were women?

By: Kathryn

Kathryn — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:41:57 +0000

There is a song in the show South Pacific called Carefully Taught that underscores the fact that prejudice, while originating in the sinful human heart, is indeed passed down through teaching. As to the question of who replaced Judas, how do we know that Junia, the female apostle in Romans 16:7, didn’t replace him? We don’t know that Paul was the replacement in God’s eyes.

By: Frank

Frank — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 17:47:10 +0000

John, I just read an essay by Aida Besancon Spencer, “Jesus’ Treatment of Women in the Gospels” that addresses some the questions you raised regarding both Jesus’ choosing the Twelve Apostles and why it was important to replace Judas. If you want to do some further study on this matter, this essay might be a helpful resource.

Since you are also a student of Canticles or The Song of Solomon, have your ever read the commentary on this book, A SONG FOR LOVERS (IVP, 1990)? In the Baptist church I grew up in, this OT book was primarily treated as a type of the love between Christ and the Church. But in my youth, I often wondered why there was no book in the Bible that extensively dealt with love, sex and marriage. However, this IVP commentary which I refer to (sorry, I’ve forgotten the author’s name), while honoring the secondary, typological use of the Song of Solomon, explains it was primarily a handbook on love, sex and marriage, which the rabbis didn’t let their young people read until they were married.

And since this is the time of year we commemorate our Lord’s sacrificial death on the cross and his glorious resurrection from the dead, let us recall and rejoice in the great salvation he has obtained for us all. May his grace and peace be with you all. Amen!

By: SingingOwl

SingingOwl — Wed, 08 Apr 2009 20:06:20 +0000

I’m so sorry, Trevor. :-(

And John, you want to be convinced, I think? Just a thought…if there are arguments on both sides, and you are unconvinced but open…would it not be better to err on the side of allowing everyone to use their gifts (even if this turns out to be wrong). If egalitarians are wrong, is harm done by allowing women full participation in the life of the church? If complimentarians are wrong, is harm done by not allowing woman full participation in the life of the church?

By: jlp

jlp — Wed, 08 Apr 2009 00:31:09 +0000

Thanks for sharing, Trevor. This is so sad.

By: Jeanine S. Moss

Jeanine S. Moss — Wed, 08 Apr 2009 00:16:11 +0000

Several comments back I noted a reference to the Church of God and their stance on women in leadership/ministry. I was reminded that several years ago as I was beginning to seriously research this issue, I came across a copy of “Vital Christianity,” in the most unlikely place. It was in one of the waiting areas in the hospital where I worked. I was browsing the reading material on the table while waiting for a committee meeting and uncovered it. What a coincidence!! I have shelves of
books and files of information gathered over the years, so I went to my files for that particular file. The information is contained in the May 1989 issue and is subtitled “Women in Ministry,” with an article by the same title authored by Sharon C. Pearson, identified as an adjunct faculty member of Azusa Pacific University, Azusa, CA. The article was very thorough and addressed many of the traditional arguments in opposition to women in leadership. JSM

By: joanne

joanne — Tue, 07 Apr 2009 12:25:55 +0000

Hi John, Hope I am hearing you correctly, I got the sense from your first blog entry that you were concerned, based on the opening article, that women in Donald’s life were dominant leaving the men without voice.

I would be concerned with relationships that left men without voice. A relationship based on equality is one or should be one that has room for the voices, opinions, input, insight, of both men and women. The goal is for two whole people who have a sense of their own person in relationship.

I worry about a lot of marriage teaching that focuses on headship and men having the final say that do not encourage wives to have a voice or sense of self. And I would be concerned about any marriage teaching that does the same to husbands.

The goal is two whole people able to self-define who are in relation with one another. Conflicts, yes! Differing opinions? You Bet!!! An interesting marriage, no doubt! Two whole people with voices enables a couple to resolve conflicts accepting and respecting each one.

I would not want my spouse to hide his voice for me. Nor would it be good for me to hide my voice to be submissive. True submission is mutual and each person must become a good listener, and hear the heart of their spouse. Only then can there be wholeness. I would argue that submitting to one another is most about listening to one another.

By: Trevor

Trevor — Tue, 07 Apr 2009 02:20:56 +0000

JLP,

My situation at that time was that I was under suspicion. It was felt that my attitude toward women, meaning their ability to minister alongside of men, was doctrinally unacceptable to some in the fellowship of churches of which our church was a member.

The most frustrating thing for me then was that I was not able to challenge the suspicion and give a personal defense of my position, I was simply blacklisted and some refused to even shake my hand in brotherly fellowship, from that point on. It was a sad, sad day.

Those who felt this way believed that if I had compromised myself on the women’s issue I had probably jettisoned other conservative doctrinal positions that were important to this group. That was not the case but I was unable, even though I was present when this was discussed, to answer those criticisms.

I guess that you could call that reprisal. As I mentioned in the earlier comment the organization eventually dissolved shortly after this incident anyway and we were able to move on. In time we led our own, independent, church into recognizing gift based ministries and changed the constitution so that we could continue to operate that way.

It saddens me that some of my ministry colleagues, from that era, are still distanced from me and that we have no opportunity to restore fellowship even though we (my wife and I) have shown ourselves more than willing.

By: jlp

jlp — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 22:02:52 +0000

Trevor,

Did you suffer reprisal in the Christian community for having egalitarian beliefs? I’ve heard that a lot of Christians have suffered thus.

There’s a major Bible School in my area. I heard through the grapevine that a lot of the professors are secretly egalitarian, but are afraid to express it for fear of getting fired.