What is most important ?
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Comment by Caroline Schleier Cutler
April 25, 2009 @ 10:00 am
I just finished taking a course called “Women in Christian History” where I learned about the lives of many women such as the three you mentioned, Mimi. They, and the men they worked side by side with, are such an inspiration to me. They often had to face tremendous obstacles because they believed they had a calling from God, and that calling was central to their lives.
I wrote a paper on the Salvation Army, and am grateful for the privilege of getting to know Catherine Booth better. After her death, an article in the Manchester Guardian declared, “She has probably done more in her own person to establish the right of women to preach the Gospel than anyone else who has ever lived.” What a legacy! (For those who are interested in the life of Catherine Booth and her impact on the Salvation Army, Roger Green’s book “Catherine Booth” is a great resource, as is the whole Summer 2008 issue of Priscilla Papers.)
There is another facet to Catherine that sheds additional light on the “poodles and terriers” comment. Catherine definitely had her priorities straight and knew what was most important: to share the Good News in word and deed. However, she also had a love of animals that began in childhood and a special compassion for those that were suffering. I believe her comment was referring to a self-centred devotion to pets at the cost of caring for people who were “poor and destitute.” After all, if God didn’t actually care for the sparrow, it would be meaningless that he valued us more. (Matt. 10:29-31)
Comment by Caroline Schleier Cutler
April 25, 2009 @ 10:09 am
I just looked over my post again and I’d like to clarify that I think what is THE most important is to love God with all of our being and to love our neighbours as ourselves. I’m sure, from what I’ve read of Catherine Booth, that those are her priorities also. Of course, to “share the Good News in word and deed” naturally flows out of our love for God and others.
Comment by Liz
April 25, 2009 @ 6:22 pm
At the end of this post there is the dates for the upcoming conference. I wonder if any of the Scroll community (writers or ‘watchers’) are intending to be there.
It would be great for you all to get together at one time and in one place. The CBE conference is so amazing as a place where the feeling of ‘one-ness’ is tangible and the choice of workshops covers a huge range of issues and concerns.
For full details, see the website – http://www.cbeinternational.org
Comment by Mary
April 26, 2009 @ 12:27 am
I am thinking about attending, if I can get the time off.
Comment by Mary
April 26, 2009 @ 12:34 am
I really do appreciate Mimi’s article above. Just the other day I read a critic of biblical equality scoff at the idea that thinking of ourselves first as human beings and then as male or female is a good thing. IMO, too many religious patriarchalists seem to think that because an egalitarian Christian doesn’t consider his or her gender the most important aspect of his or her identity, means that egalitarians are “indifferent” to differences between men and women. From what I’ve seen and experienced, most of us are quite well aware of those differences, and we appreciate them. ;-)
What we try not to do is invent additional differences and then create a theology out of that invention.
Comment by Pam
April 26, 2009 @ 1:04 pm
Thank you, Mimi.
Some of us do burn with desire for lost souls to know our Jesus rather than getting a foot rub and a pamphlet on managing our time in the booth down the row at the evangelical conference. And yes, we are women! God bless you and all women who have brought the Good News to a hurting world along with wonderful brothers in Christ.
Comment by joanne
April 26, 2009 @ 3:49 pm
I checked out of women’s ministry long ago because it was so fluffy and I was so hungry. Emphasis on wardrobing, setting tables and make-up was tedious and something I could find in a magazine if I wanted. What I really wanted to know was how to live a godly, God honoring life. I wanted to know Jesus and what the bible meant.
I had to go to seminary to get that because the church did not think women would be interested. I also had the weird experience as a young mother of being interested in what the men were talking about during fellowship time in adult sunday school. I was intrigued by the political and biblical discussions and could only do so when my spouse was present.(not because of prohibitions but because of the discomfort my being there presented).
Anyway… I want to know why the church pays so much attention to gender and how each gender should function? Why don’t men’s groups and women’s groups study Jesus and his life and the kingdom and the letters of the apostles? It’s getting extreme and the excessive anxiety about gender is notable.
Comment by Kate
April 27, 2009 @ 6:50 am
It has often been said that the Sunday church hour is the most segregated time. I agree. As I was walking out of church yesterday I noticed all these different Sunday school classes: young women, women, men, singles, etc. When are we going to be just Christians who study together? I, too, have given up women’s functions for the most part. Too much fluff and shopping…. I was asked to lead a women’s retreat a while ago. I gave them devotions to do the week before the conference in preparation, and the issues we discussed were deep – mostly on how do we view God, what is He like, and what stands in our way of seeing Him as loving and caring (our hurts and wounds). Some of the women were so thankful that we had “meat”, some were just uncomfortable. All were surprised they had preparation to do…
Comment by Donald Guffey
April 27, 2009 @ 9:07 pm
I must say that It is indeed sad to see that People make such a big deal about gender. As a man I myself have not been sheltered from gender expectations. In the church today there is a trend that says that the ideal ” Man Of God” must be macho and Wild at heart. To be honest I am not macho by a long shot and I find myself to be more “Captivated” by my relationship with God. ( puns intended). I can’t understand why we as Christians put such restraints on ourselves. I get the impression from the article that Women are the major force behind teaching women these frilly June Cleaver traits. The women in the Bible I see as strong spiritual warriors. And men In the Bible I see challenging the western norms such as John laying on Jesus’ chest. God I believe has created us each with unique personalities and traits only one of which is our biological sex. We must focus more on teaching men and women to be who they are in Christ and using their special gifts to further the kingdom of God. This is what I think.
Comment by joanne
April 28, 2009 @ 6:00 am
Donald, that’s my frustration. I wonder why women are so involved in teaching the submissive life. Many women in my area think I am crazy or out of touch when I say that I believe in mutual relationships. Why is there such fertile soil for these kinds of teachings? Why don’t women get together and study the life of Jesus and his way of living in the bible? Why don’t men? Why genderize Jesus and the bible? I don’t think that is what the authors intended.
I think the Bible is being adapted as a socialization tool to get men and women to adopt cultural forms and notions about men and women.
Comment by Liz
April 28, 2009 @ 7:49 am
Maybe it is because many women don’t study the bible that they are so easily persuaded that gender roles are biblical. Many Christians are impressed by teachers who seem to know such a lot about the bible rather than looking into things for themselves. There is a power in submissiveness and ‘femininity’ which is attractive to some women – it gives them a sense of purpose and belonging.
Comment by joanne
April 28, 2009 @ 8:09 am
Liz, I hear you. There is a lot of social approval as well.
Just by voicing an opinion on the matter brings incredulous looks from other women. It’s a powerful form of social conformity and the risk is loss of community acceptance and misunderstanding from women friends. …maybe even a feminist label which according to labeling theory is a form of social control.
Comment by Liz
April 28, 2009 @ 8:44 am
‘Social control’…that’s a powerful thought to be applied to the church but it describes exactly what is happening in many places.
Even if we are past caring what others think about us, the minute we express our egalitarian beliefs we are labelled and often shut off from contact with others which means we don’t have opportunity to introduce them to the good news of equality. It is so similar to how sects operate that it is positively scary!
Comment by jlp
April 28, 2009 @ 5:11 pm
There are a lot of big name men out there encouraging women to put men first in their lives. Men like John Piper, Wayne Grudem, Paige Patterson and Bruce Ware.
Comment by joanne
April 29, 2009 @ 1:01 pm
JLP, after reading Quiverfull by Kathryn Joyce, I see this from an outside the evangelical church perspective. I think the outside world sees the patriarchy stuff as a barrier to finding that relationship with Jesus Christ. It’s kind of like what Paul dealt with regarding circumcision. The Gentiles were stumbling over it and he taught that only faith is needed to be reconciled to God. Circumcision was of no value in terms of salvation.
Soooo I believe if Paul were here today, he would say patriarchy is now a stumbling block to those trying to enter the kingdom. It is no different than the Judiazers who tuaght that one needed faith and circumcision. Patriarchalists (in the quiverfull movement) teach that one needs faith and childbearing or faith and headship of husband (complimentarianism).
Its just faith… in Jesus. i wish the church would just stay focused on Jesus and loving our neighbor.
Comment by leigh
April 29, 2009 @ 4:33 pm
Speaking for some of us, Joanne: Absolutely.
I had no interest in learning about such a sexist institution (i.e., “church”), or what those affiliated with it (i.e., “Christians”) had to say about “God”. There was already enough sexism to deal with *outside* of the church, I saw no point in adding to it.
After all, what would I ever have wanted with a god who believed that women were worth less than men?
Christ revealed himself to me…well, gradually, but I didn’t accept him until I was in my 30′s. I’ve not lost touch with why I was just flat-out not interested in Christianity or Christ for many years. Women being valued less than men were valued was definitely one reason.
Comment by Liz
April 29, 2009 @ 6:09 pm
So glad you wrote that Leigh! It’s sad to hear you were put off by the church but also good news that Jesus revealed himself to you in spite of that.
One of the reasons we are so passionate about equality is because we see anything less as a stumbling block to seeing God and you have confirmed that reasoning.
Of course, complementarians would also agree that salvation is the prime issue but they don’t see that their second class position for women suggests a God with whom many don’t want to engage.
It was unchurched women who first pointed this out to us and we were so concerned that we took more time to really look at what scripture has to say about women and men within the church and home. We were practising egalitarians but had no theology to prove it……..the challenge was good for us.
Comment by Sonnet
April 29, 2009 @ 6:58 pm
It does seem like many within the church are placing a strong emphasis for women to either become or to remain overly concerned with their outward appearance in order to please their husband (or to catch a husband). This seems to go against the teaching in 1 Peter 3:3,4.
Teachings toward wives seem to be directed at drawing us away from our devotion to God and becoming OVERLY concerned with how to please our husbands. The overarching message seems to be that this is what pleases God most – to indirectly serve Him through serving all the needs and wants of our husbands. If we have any time and energy still available, then we can give directly to God our “leftovers.”
Comment by Sonnet
April 29, 2009 @ 7:24 pm
A different “gospel” is being proclaimed to women, and it is NOT good news! We are told within many churches that men are the priests of the family or the spiritual leaders of the home. For some reason they are denying women the same level of access to God that men are entitled to. Why do they believe that Christ’s atonement was not enough for women???
I like the following points that Katharine Bushnell made in her book, “Gods Word to Women.”
http://godswordtowomen.org/lesson_90.htm
735. But far and above all this, NO CHRISTIAN SHOULD EVER DISHONOR THE ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST, nor can a Christian do this without sin. There is no place in this whole world for a Christian to seek to please God by doing penance. The acceptance of penance is a denial of the sufficiency of the atonement for our sins. We women refuse that attitude towards Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ’s atonement did not fall short of reaching Eve, by any means.
736. But again the question, “Why should Eve’s female offspring suffer for the sin of Eve more than her male offspring? every human being is the child of Eve.” No possible answer is forthcoming excepting that in some obscure sense the female is Eve’s special offspring, or seed, or at least so reckoned by God and man.
Ah, now we are getting to the point. Who else is the special Seed of the woman? Jesus Christ. We women are put in a class by ourselves because we are specially related to the first woman; and we find Jesus Christ in that same class with us. But if the class to which Jesus Christ belongs-the special Seed of woman-is to be in perpetual dishonor, there can be no doubt as to what spirit teaches this,-not the Holy Spirit, the real teacher of the Word and Expounder of it, but the spirit of Anti-christ,-for “even now are there many anti-christs” (1 John 2:18). And is it not worthwhile, sisters, for us to rise up and challenge this lying spirit which has gone forth into the world,-this denial to woman of the full benefits of the Atonement?
Nay more: It is not enough to say this is worthwhile,-“Woe be it unto [us women] if we preach not the gospel, for just to the extent that these other matters are taught Christ, more than woman, is dishonored; and the world may perish for want of a knowledge of the fullness and sufficiency of the atonement of Jesus Christ unless we women challenge this false doctrine, by exhibiting in our lives the results of an atonement with no sex limits on it.
Comment by joanne
April 29, 2009 @ 8:08 pm
Leigh, I agree… i know a young woman who said that if God demands that women must be under men… then she did not want to know him.
it’s not God,,,its the culture of the sin system.
Comment by joanne
April 30, 2009 @ 10:32 am
I like the question… what’s most important to women? at what stage? I think when i first became a wife, i did ask the question, what is a godly wife? what is a godly marriage? i think when i was parenting i really did want to know how to raise children in the faith and for them to become healthy human beings. And now how can I make a real difference in the world as one of God’s people?
Comment by Donald Guffey
April 30, 2009 @ 4:20 pm
I can see that this issue is a hot one for us. I would however like to hear some opinions on the effect this over emphasis of “proper gender roles” has on us guys! I fully understand the reason that most of the comments are about how this issue affects women cause granted, my sisters in Christ have gotten a rotten deal for centuries! So like I said I see the primary mentioning of the affect this issue has on women ( I also believe real men of God should make an extra effort to encourage and lift up women in the ministry and in the church in general) But just the same I’m interested to hear how y’all think guys are affected by this issue more specifically guys like myself who don’t meet the “Macho” persona. Can’t wait to hear your takes on this.
Comment by Dr.Shirley
April 30, 2009 @ 5:14 pm
You know, it’s kind of weird – back during the Reformation, Luther and the others were teaching the “priesthood of all believers”. Now, we find out that maybe they didn’t really mean that; evidently they just meant some believers, that is, those who only have one X chromosome. But ALL means ALL. If there are any priests in Christianity, it applies to ALL, not just to husbands or other males.
Peter says we are a royal priesthood, a holy nation, and he doesn’t say anything about exceptions. A priest is one who has direct access to God and brings sacrifices to God directly. I as a believer may define myself as a priest, and I do. All you women believers: define yourself as a priest unto God in Christ. This is Biblical; women are exhorted in 1 Tim 3 to be venerable, reverend, holy (Gr. semna), befitting those set apart for God.
Comment by joanne
May 1, 2009 @ 6:52 am
Donald, i think such teaching and thinking also limits men and restricts them to a narrow definition of what is masculine. I think to take the focus off flesh (female flesh or male flesh) and place it on character would take us out of those two categories and free us to develop real character–fruit of the spirit character.
Look at Jesus’ character… his love, justice, compassion, courage, holiness, righteous anger, active faith, kindness, sharp wit and ability to think about what is good, what would bring shalom (justice and well-being).
Then I don’t need a feminine face for God or a male face for God… I need a human face for God and a human model of godliness. We are then in God’s image because we are human and made in his image…and there is not a feminine way to be that image and a male way to be in that image.
It is freeing for both men and women to focus on the Spirit… and character… not on flesh.
Comment by Trevor
May 1, 2009 @ 8:07 pm
Amen to your last comment Joanne.
Donald’s challenge to men who may have been impacted by the gender stereotyping is an interesting one.
It reminds me of when I was training for the ministry light years ago. At that time I was a newish believer and my wife Liz had much more experience in church life and ministry. We had only been married about 8 months and I often deferred to her, what seemed to me, wealth of experience. So much so that I was accused by other students of being ‘tied to my wife’s apron strings.’ Naturally I resented that inference because I didn’t mind drawing on my wife’s experience and besides we were pretty much newly weds and she was my best friend. Which, by the way hasn’t changed after 43 years of marriage.
I also used to, and still do, consult with my wife (as she does me) before going anywhere and we always kiss before going out alone. My (our) thought being that we never know if something may happen and we may not return. I wasn’t being gloomy, just realistic. Again I came under fire because males just do their own thing, independent of women. Like, if you want to go to the hardware store, you just jump in the car, unannounced, and go. I couldn’t do it.
We carried on that kind of consideration throughout our married life and from time to time many of my more macho ministry friends would hint that I was allowing my wife to ‘wear the pants.’ In other words they saw her as the ‘boss’ in our relationship. The truth was, and still is, that we were in the habit of deferring to one another and wanted to allow Christ to be the true head and director of our together relationship. We both wanted what was best, under God, for both of us and our family of four sons.
This mutuality seemed to us to be a far better, higher and more Christ honoring way to live out our marriage but the stereotypical expectations often caused us a great deal of personal pain. We tried to live this out in our ministry lives as well. Most of the women rejoiced in how they saw Liz and I relate but many of the men found it extremely threatening to their perceived personhood.
Comment by Donald Guffey
May 1, 2009 @ 8:53 pm
Your story is truly inspiring Trevor and congrats on 43years of marriage and may you have 43 more and then some. I agree totally with you that most men will be very threatened by our viewpoint. It is because I think that a man who does in fact fit the macho persona finds nothing but affirmation in the church today. It is only natural to fight against something that throws the proverbial wrench into the machine works. This is exactly what our viewpoint is of forsaking gender for relationship with God. Men as is the case with all human beings long for acceptance and belonging there is no question about this and I can see where the egalitarian way of life can be threatening to a man with the opposite view. It would in a sense make a man ( at least in his head) seem of less importance. This I think would be the initial reaction that is until the realization comes that true egalitarianism is not the demoting of one gender (male) and the promotion of the other ( female) but is in fact the putting aside of those things we perceive as masculine and feminine and in its place embracing the viewing of ourselves as God does and being that we are all one in Christ Jesus. In doing this we begin not to see each other as male or female, masculine or feminine, nor do we see perceived faulted humans ie a masculine woman or a feminine man, but we see each other as unique individuals with unique gifts and personalities. This is the true essence of Christ’s message I think. But all this said, when we begin to build up those who don’t fit the perceived gender mold it is only normal for those who do fit this mold to initially feel threatened.
Comment by Liz
May 2, 2009 @ 7:53 am
Just checked our blogsite (haven’t been there in a while) and the last thing I wrote a year ago was on this subject and entitled “Women’s Meetings” Maybe it’s worth a look.. http//onesykes.blogspot.com/
Comment by Frank
May 2, 2009 @ 1:23 pm
I wonder if some of the distortions as to what is central to the Christian life and our relationship as men and women in the Body of Christ, are not due to the fact that we no longer have the eschatological focus of Paul and the earliest Christians, such as it is expressed in 1 Cor 7:25-35. If the pattern of this world is passing away, and our call is to spread the Gospel and make disciples before Jesus returns to judge and reign, shouldn’t we think more on how our friendships, marriages, families, and churches should be geared, in the power of the Spirit, to promote and advance the central concerns of God’s present and coming kingdom: Salvation, truth, justice, righteousness, and peace for all who will embrace Jesus as Lord and Savior? It certainly is something we all should be thinking about, especially if, as some are saying, the present world upheavals are the beginning of the predicted “birth-pangs”(cf. Matt. 24:4-8) preceding the Second Coming. Surely, the Day of the Lord is nearer now than it was 50 years ago; shouldn’t we be watching, praying and working as our Lord told us to do?
Comment by Amanda
May 3, 2009 @ 1:21 pm
Re #89157 “I wonder why women are so involved in teaching the submissive life.”
They are so involved in teaching it because what is being taught in so many churches (not to mention books, conferences, blogs, etc.) is that women are denying the gospel if they fail to submit (one-sidedly) to their husbands. Complementarianism is increasingly being taught as essential to the gospel, and yes, as a means of evangelism. If people see our complementarian familes and churches, then they will naturally be attracted to Christ. Yet as Leigh and others have said, that’s not what happens (I would add that complementarianism is also a huge turnoff to many who grew up in churches, along with those who did not).
Comment by Robyn
May 5, 2009 @ 11:57 am
Men outside the church are often thrilled to hear the gospel and receive instruction from women.
But boys, young men, and men in the church are taught that it is unacceptable to learn from women, sometimes even from their own mothers, particularly after adolescence.
What a travesty.
Comment by PS(anafter-thought)
May 7, 2009 @ 7:05 am
Are men or women designing these programs for the women? Sounds like the men need some programs on the history of faithful women.
Comment by Francine
May 7, 2009 @ 7:56 am
I do agree that most retreats are fluffy. However, we need the balance on the fluff and hard study. I myself will be going to an “all daughters picnic” in a week. Then in a couple of months I will be going to the CBE conference in St. Louis. Women need to be well rounded and complete women and both of these help. The problem arises when women are taught that being a wife and mother is their calling, and how we dress and put on make-up is more important that studying the word of God. By the way, I usually don’t go to a retreat if they are going to teach about the Proverbs 31 woman since most teach about her incorrectly. Such as her being a submissive wife and a doting mother and great housekeeper without bringing out the fact that she was much more than just that.
Trevor, congrats on the 43 years of marriage and your testimony of mutual submission. My husband and I went to a church that was basically complementarian, but our marriage grew to mutual submission over the years. God helped us to grow by letting us help each other to know and love each other more than ourselves and in turn to know and love God more. When we got married our spiritual lives were a shamble, but God used each other to teach each other. He loved to have me read the scripture with him in front of the church. He encouraged me to speak in front of mixed groups and got upset when the church would not let me teach the Sunday school class simply because I was a woman. He thought I was a good teacher that did my research. We made our decisions together after prayer. He encouraged me to be the best that I could. I remember one time he told me I was a great wife, but a bad housekeeper. It was great that he knew the difference. By the way, my dear husband would not only tell me he was going to the hardware store, he would ask if I wanted to go with him. I lost my beloved a year and a half ago and it is now that I am hearing about the wonderful testimony our marriage was. A friend at work made a remark that she went to a shop party because Tom and I were going to be there. She wanted to meet the man I always was in a hurry to get home to. She watched us and noticed the love, the friendship, the mutual caring and said she wanted a marriage like that. Maybe that was what Paul was talking about in Ephesians, a testimony on how a couple reflect the love Christ had for the church and how the church was to love Christ.
Comment by Liz
May 7, 2009 @ 8:43 am
Francine…what a beautiful testimony of your marriage. Growing and learning together is such a wonderful picture of mutuality. Even though you must miss your husband incredibly, it would be a comfort that there are no regrets and many happy memories.
Comment by Clarence Fernandez
July 30, 2009 @ 4:29 am
I would be most grateful if you could change the reference to Marathi as a dialect in the comments of Mimi Haddad. It is not a dialect, but a full-fledged language spoken daily by roughly 70 million people across an area half the size of France. It has a complete grammar and a literature stretching back at least as far as the twelfth century of the Christian Era, with a wealth of specific cultural traditions. Anne Feldhaus at Arizona State University (http://www.asu.edu/clas/religious_studies/faculty/feldhaus.htmlis) is an expert speaker of the language should you wish confirmation.
Thank you.
Clarence Fernandez
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