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	<title>Comments on: You shall not tempt the Lord your God</title>
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	<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2009/10/you-shall-not-tempt-the-lord-your-god/</link>
	<description>Blog voices from Christians for Biblical Equality</description>
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		<title>By: Trevor</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2009/10/you-shall-not-tempt-the-lord-your-god/comment-page-1/#comment-90474</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 08:27:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=662#comment-90474</guid>
		<description>Noel, my wife and I were privileged to be able to attend the CBE Conference in St Louis, Missouri in July 2009 where Catherine had a stand representing the work of PASCH (Peace and Safety in the Christian Home). We brought home with us a couple of the organization&#039;s newsletters and a book edited by Catherine Clark Kroeger, Nancy Nason-Clark and Barbara Fisher-Townsend titled, &quot;Beyond Abuse in the Christian Home: Raising Voices for Change.&quot; That book is a valuable resource for Pastors as would be the web links of the following organizations.
PASCH - www.peaceandsafety.com  
The RAVE project - www.theraveproject.org
Something that may be of further help is the work of Ty Schroyer and Barb Jones-Schroyer of the Duluth Domestic Abuse Intervention Project who work with Christian perpetrators of abuse. www.theduluthmodel.org</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Noel, my wife and I were privileged to be able to attend the CBE Conference in St Louis, Missouri in July 2009 where Catherine had a stand representing the work of PASCH (Peace and Safety in the Christian Home). We brought home with us a couple of the organization&#8217;s newsletters and a book edited by Catherine Clark Kroeger, Nancy Nason-Clark and Barbara Fisher-Townsend titled, &#8220;Beyond Abuse in the Christian Home: Raising Voices for Change.&#8221; That book is a valuable resource for Pastors as would be the web links of the following organizations.<br />
PASCH &#8211; <a href="http://www.peaceandsafety.com" onclick="return TrackClick('http%3A%2F%2Fwww.peaceandsafety.com','http%3A%2F%2Fwww.peaceandsafety.com')" rel="nofollow">http://www.peaceandsafety.com</a><br />
The RAVE project &#8211; <a href="http://www.theraveproject.org" onclick="return TrackClick('http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theraveproject.org','http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theraveproject.org')" rel="nofollow">http://www.theraveproject.org</a><br />
Something that may be of further help is the work of Ty Schroyer and Barb Jones-Schroyer of the Duluth Domestic Abuse Intervention Project who work with Christian perpetrators of abuse. <a href="http://www.theduluthmodel.org" onclick="return TrackClick('http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theduluthmodel.org','http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theduluthmodel.org')" rel="nofollow">http://www.theduluthmodel.org</a></p>
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		<title>By: Noel Bullock</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2009/10/you-shall-not-tempt-the-lord-your-god/comment-page-1/#comment-90472</link>
		<dc:creator>Noel Bullock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 02:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=662#comment-90472</guid>
		<description>As a seminarian, I was frightened to hear of the poor counsel or ineffectiveness in couple&#039;s counseling for abusive relationships.  I noted carefully Molly&#039;s recommendation of &quot;Why Does He Do That?&quot; (thank you).  My suspicion is that this is clearly an area where pastoral staff need equipping. I know that the hospice foundation has material for clergy to assist others in the grieving process.  Is there any place where a similar resource exists to equip pastors with respect to abusive relationships?  Dr Kroeger, thank you for your post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a seminarian, I was frightened to hear of the poor counsel or ineffectiveness in couple&#8217;s counseling for abusive relationships.  I noted carefully Molly&#8217;s recommendation of &#8220;Why Does He Do That?&#8221; (thank you).  My suspicion is that this is clearly an area where pastoral staff need equipping. I know that the hospice foundation has material for clergy to assist others in the grieving process.  Is there any place where a similar resource exists to equip pastors with respect to abusive relationships?  Dr Kroeger, thank you for your post.</p>
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		<title>By: TL</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2009/10/you-shall-not-tempt-the-lord-your-god/comment-page-1/#comment-90408</link>
		<dc:creator>TL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:39:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=662#comment-90408</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;Excellent advice except for one thing…Statistics show that separation is a very dangerous time for abused women. &quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Very true. A man who is violent physically has violent thinking also.  When the victim he has so enjoyed abusing, slips out of his hands, this only serves to inspire more violence.  Such a woman needs to remove herself and her children far from his physical presence.  Even the act of divorcing will be an excuse for anger.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;Excellent advice except for one thing…Statistics show that separation is a very dangerous time for abused women. &#8220;</i></p>
<p>Very true. A man who is violent physically has violent thinking also.  When the victim he has so enjoyed abusing, slips out of his hands, this only serves to inspire more violence.  Such a woman needs to remove herself and her children far from his physical presence.  Even the act of divorcing will be an excuse for anger.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennie Dugan</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2009/10/you-shall-not-tempt-the-lord-your-god/comment-page-1/#comment-90406</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennie Dugan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:35:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=662#comment-90406</guid>
		<description>My former mother-in-law (long time ago), who was also a Brethren minister, once told me that in her classes on counseling, they were taught that the first priority is to keep the family together. She told me about it as she was telling me about a man in the church who had sexually abused his daughter. It didn&#039;t make sense then, and it doesn&#039;t make sense now. Thank you for your article. Like some others, I especially like your comment that it&#039;s the abuser that breaks the covenant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My former mother-in-law (long time ago), who was also a Brethren minister, once told me that in her classes on counseling, they were taught that the first priority is to keep the family together. She told me about it as she was telling me about a man in the church who had sexually abused his daughter. It didn&#8217;t make sense then, and it doesn&#8217;t make sense now. Thank you for your article. Like some others, I especially like your comment that it&#8217;s the abuser that breaks the covenant.</p>
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		<title>By: Liz</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2009/10/you-shall-not-tempt-the-lord-your-god/comment-page-1/#comment-90363</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 23:50:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=662#comment-90363</guid>
		<description>Thanks for sharing your story Joan. It gives another perspective on how a situation of abuse can end up. It&#039;s so good that you heeded that inner voice when you did.
Maybe someone else is reading this and will be helped to run from a similar situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for sharing your story Joan. It gives another perspective on how a situation of abuse can end up. It&#8217;s so good that you heeded that inner voice when you did.<br />
Maybe someone else is reading this and will be helped to run from a similar situation.</p>
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		<title>By: Joan</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2009/10/you-shall-not-tempt-the-lord-your-god/comment-page-1/#comment-90362</link>
		<dc:creator>Joan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 18:21:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=662#comment-90362</guid>
		<description>My abuse story didn&#039;t start until I was almost 40 years old, when I was getting married for the first time.  I shared my desire to be a Godly wife and partner, after living independently all my adult life.  My abuser used that as a tool to charge that any of my thoughts were atttempts to control him...The verbal abuse escalated  so quickly, I felt I was in a boxing match, being hit so quickly I couldn&#039;t even fall down. The day he grabbed my throat I knew I was in trouble.  Within days, I heard an inner voice that said, &quot;if you stay, you will kill him, and possibly yourself&quot;.  I got out.  I was a lucky one.  People often forget the potential retaliation of a victim who feels so hopeless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My abuse story didn&#8217;t start until I was almost 40 years old, when I was getting married for the first time.  I shared my desire to be a Godly wife and partner, after living independently all my adult life.  My abuser used that as a tool to charge that any of my thoughts were atttempts to control him&#8230;The verbal abuse escalated  so quickly, I felt I was in a boxing match, being hit so quickly I couldn&#8217;t even fall down. The day he grabbed my throat I knew I was in trouble.  Within days, I heard an inner voice that said, &#8220;if you stay, you will kill him, and possibly yourself&#8221;.  I got out.  I was a lucky one.  People often forget the potential retaliation of a victim who feels so hopeless.</p>
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		<title>By: Trevor</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2009/10/you-shall-not-tempt-the-lord-your-god/comment-page-1/#comment-90030</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 03:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=662#comment-90030</guid>
		<description>One of the saddest things, to my mind, that we encounter in respect to this topic concerns women who leave an emotionally abusive marriage situation only to find, in later years, that their children side with the abusive husband. 

Most often a woman leaves when the children are younger because she senses that living with constant abuse is detrimental to the children&#039;s own well being and relational development. During the separation the children, at the direction of the courts, continue to visit the father, by staying over weekends or alternating week about. Unless the woman has become incredibly embittered by the experience she will usually work hard at not speaking negatively about the children&#039;s father around them. So in time the children forget the issues.

Add to this mix that the father, who saw no good thing in his spouse during the marriage, continues to berate and malign her in his access times with the children. If he is the religious type he lays on the children all the biblical reasons why he sees that it was wrong for their mother to leave him. As the children develop their own spiritual values they may well be attracted to the simplistic, legalistic outlook of their father, especially if they attend and are influenced by the hierarchical teaching of his church.

Meanwhile, with no hope of reconciliation in sight, the mother may find herself in a position where another man comes in to her life. Through much agonizing heart-searching and prayer she believes that God may be leading her into a new marriage relationship where mutuality and genuine caring for one another has an opportunity to grow. She is overwhelmed by God&#039;s grace to her in her brokenness only to discover that the children, now teens or young adults, do not share her joy, and in fact become resentful and obstructive.

Take this a step further.... the disenfranchised father can fill the children&#039;s minds with his belief that it is wrong for a divorced woman to contemplate remarriage and in fact if she does she will be living in adultery. Granted the teen years, communication wise, can be difficult anyway, but, if the mother is the primary carer, and the children in their inexperience, are consumed by this notion, a huge, additional wedge is driven between them.

This may cause the woman to end the prospective relationship, no matter how promising it appeared to be, or how much in love she felt herself becoming, in favor of reaching out to the children and preserving their relationship. Or, she may push on with a second marriage in the hope that by God&#039;s grace, in time, the children will understand. It seems to me that, in either of these possible scenarios, the original abuse of the estranged husband, who I might add, sundered the marriage, continues to hound the woman in this new form and is in fact very likely energized by the resentful expressions of the children. 

Perhaps there are some women out there who can share their experiences of how they managed situations like I&#039;ve outlined above where there are children involved. It could be that you are going through something like this right now, or, you are just coming through it all onto the other side. 

Maybe, by God&#039;s grace, this is well and truly behind you but there are some valuable life lessons that you&#039;ve learned along the way that you would like to share on this forum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the saddest things, to my mind, that we encounter in respect to this topic concerns women who leave an emotionally abusive marriage situation only to find, in later years, that their children side with the abusive husband. </p>
<p>Most often a woman leaves when the children are younger because she senses that living with constant abuse is detrimental to the children&#8217;s own well being and relational development. During the separation the children, at the direction of the courts, continue to visit the father, by staying over weekends or alternating week about. Unless the woman has become incredibly embittered by the experience she will usually work hard at not speaking negatively about the children&#8217;s father around them. So in time the children forget the issues.</p>
<p>Add to this mix that the father, who saw no good thing in his spouse during the marriage, continues to berate and malign her in his access times with the children. If he is the religious type he lays on the children all the biblical reasons why he sees that it was wrong for their mother to leave him. As the children develop their own spiritual values they may well be attracted to the simplistic, legalistic outlook of their father, especially if they attend and are influenced by the hierarchical teaching of his church.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, with no hope of reconciliation in sight, the mother may find herself in a position where another man comes in to her life. Through much agonizing heart-searching and prayer she believes that God may be leading her into a new marriage relationship where mutuality and genuine caring for one another has an opportunity to grow. She is overwhelmed by God&#8217;s grace to her in her brokenness only to discover that the children, now teens or young adults, do not share her joy, and in fact become resentful and obstructive.</p>
<p>Take this a step further&#8230;. the disenfranchised father can fill the children&#8217;s minds with his belief that it is wrong for a divorced woman to contemplate remarriage and in fact if she does she will be living in adultery. Granted the teen years, communication wise, can be difficult anyway, but, if the mother is the primary carer, and the children in their inexperience, are consumed by this notion, a huge, additional wedge is driven between them.</p>
<p>This may cause the woman to end the prospective relationship, no matter how promising it appeared to be, or how much in love she felt herself becoming, in favor of reaching out to the children and preserving their relationship. Or, she may push on with a second marriage in the hope that by God&#8217;s grace, in time, the children will understand. It seems to me that, in either of these possible scenarios, the original abuse of the estranged husband, who I might add, sundered the marriage, continues to hound the woman in this new form and is in fact very likely energized by the resentful expressions of the children. </p>
<p>Perhaps there are some women out there who can share their experiences of how they managed situations like I&#8217;ve outlined above where there are children involved. It could be that you are going through something like this right now, or, you are just coming through it all onto the other side. </p>
<p>Maybe, by God&#8217;s grace, this is well and truly behind you but there are some valuable life lessons that you&#8217;ve learned along the way that you would like to share on this forum.</p>
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		<title>By: molly</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2009/10/you-shall-not-tempt-the-lord-your-god/comment-page-1/#comment-90028</link>
		<dc:creator>molly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 18:29:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=662#comment-90028</guid>
		<description>My situation did not involve physical abuse either...which is what made me think it wasn&#039;t abuse...  

...Yet the things done to me, almost all of them in God&#039;s name (thanks to complementarian/patriarchal theology that put him in the position of my prophet, priest and king), were abuse, plain and simple.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My situation did not involve physical abuse either&#8230;which is what made me think it wasn&#8217;t abuse&#8230;  </p>
<p>&#8230;Yet the things done to me, almost all of them in God&#8217;s name (thanks to complementarian/patriarchal theology that put him in the position of my prophet, priest and king), were abuse, plain and simple.</p>
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		<title>By: Francine</title>
		<link>http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2009/10/you-shall-not-tempt-the-lord-your-god/comment-page-1/#comment-90024</link>
		<dc:creator>Francine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 14:23:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=662#comment-90024</guid>
		<description>Although all kinds of abuse is wrong, one type of abuse that is seldom reported and dealt with is emotional abuse.  I realize that it is not as life threating as physical abuse, but it can be damaging to the soul and spirit of the wife or hushand.  My ex-husband was a very controlling person.  He felt it was his church giving right to control every aspect of my life.  He did it by telling me I was fat, ugly and stupid, until I actually believed that without him I was a nothing.  I couldn&#039;t report this type of abuse because at the time it was happening I didn&#039;t realize that it was abuse.  Plus, there are not physical signs only emotional scars. It took me years to get over the emotional trauma, but I went through a divorce to do it.  I then later met and married a man who loved me so much he would tell me I was just the right size, very pretty and smart enough to do what ever I was called to do.  But it took him years of telling me this to get me to believe him.  I&#039;m &quot;lucky&quot; some women never get this kind of help.
How do you help these ladies?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although all kinds of abuse is wrong, one type of abuse that is seldom reported and dealt with is emotional abuse.  I realize that it is not as life threating as physical abuse, but it can be damaging to the soul and spirit of the wife or hushand.  My ex-husband was a very controlling person.  He felt it was his church giving right to control every aspect of my life.  He did it by telling me I was fat, ugly and stupid, until I actually believed that without him I was a nothing.  I couldn&#8217;t report this type of abuse because at the time it was happening I didn&#8217;t realize that it was abuse.  Plus, there are not physical signs only emotional scars. It took me years to get over the emotional trauma, but I went through a divorce to do it.  I then later met and married a man who loved me so much he would tell me I was just the right size, very pretty and smart enough to do what ever I was called to do.  But it took him years of telling me this to get me to believe him.  I&#8217;m &#8220;lucky&#8221; some women never get this kind of help.<br />
How do you help these ladies?</p>
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