The CBE Scroll

Comment by PSanafter-thought

December 1, 2009 @ 7:47 am

Our political commentators could learn from this! I’ve heard that in the past, people from both sides of the aisles could be good friends, but these days, they can be so mean, that you have to wonder if they would support a plan that Jesus gave to the other side.

Comment by Deborah

December 1, 2009 @ 7:36 pm

Great story!

Comment by Jennie Dugan

December 4, 2009 @ 12:21 pm

I love this story. A fight for equality isn’t a fight against anyone, but for everyone.

Comment by Don

December 5, 2009 @ 7:36 am

Love is the PRIMARY indication of being a believer. Love is more important that being right, grace comes before truth. When I was agnostic, I could not even hear the truth about God before I experienced God’s love, and I certainly did not deserve it.

I see the non-egals gradually building up walls of separation to defend themselves, if their listeners will not even listen to the egal side, they are not being Bereans.

Comment by Jane

December 6, 2009 @ 12:37 am

PRAYER ALERT–IMMEDIATE PRAYER ALERT

Muslim girl, America, converted to Christianity, is being held hostage [and being refused visits from anyone] in foster care–as to not offend Muslims, her family will send her to Sri Lanka, where apostacy is punishable by forced marriage-death, etc. Her name is Rifqa Bary, she is just a teen. She is in real danger of Honor Killing [for those of you who are not aware of the real horrors women living in Islamic families endure, including here in the US. [I was engaged to a Muslim Shite years ago, I have been intimate with Islam here in the West--so I KNOW firsthand, the reality, of what these women-girls endure].

see http://thewomenofislam.blogspot.com/

for the whole story–scroll down a bit to where it says, Rifqa Bary In Solitary Confinement
The vise is tightening further on Rifqa Bary, the teenage girl who converted to Christianity from Islam and then fled to Florida from her Ohio home in fear for her life. Now she is in foster care in Ohio, in imminent danger of being returned to her family, and the Ohio authorities, at the command of the Barys’ lawyer, continue to isolate her.

Rifqa Bary has been in Ohio for well over a month and still there is no “approved visitation” list of friends who are allowed to see her. How can this be? How can it be that friends who request a visit, and whom Rifqa requests to visit, are repeatedly told that “there is no approved visitation list”? Is it not the very mission by objective of children’s services to protect the health and welfare of a child? Why has this one child in particular been denied visits from friends?

Also, Pamela Gellar did a write up on this story…we need to really hold this girl in prayer–the political machinery will sacrifice her, she needs our support.

Thanks, solidarity, Jane

Comment by Jane

December 6, 2009 @ 1:06 am

they are asking everyone to send her a card for Christmas,

folks, She is a prisoner for Jesus Christ–right here in AMERICA…she is only 16 years old. So, lets get busy on this, Pronto,

prayer, tell your church, read this link, they are also asking for letters/phone calls to be sent to the governor of Ohio, see

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/11/merry-christmas-rifqa.html

I will be covering this on my blog as well–pass this forward, tell your church, your youth group, everyone…

Jane

Comment by Liz

December 6, 2009 @ 6:49 pm

Thanks for this information Jane. We haven’t heard this in Australia but know that it goes on daily, around the world. We can pray and be involved in this way.

Comment by Jane

December 6, 2009 @ 10:39 pm

Liz, I envy you, LOL, Australia has so much good where it comes to ethical consumerism, they are like on the ball where that is concerned–so is the UK, I get a lot of my info/resources from both countries, that I can’t get here in the US. It was a blog from Australia where I learned a lot about the blood chocolate–and they seem to have a few more companies that only buy-do fair trade,

we sure could use more of that here. What we do have here, is very limited AND very Expensive–and in rural areas, near impossible to find items, etc. Also, Australia, and Canada, are way up too on the woman to woman abuse–where the US is sorely lacking, in even admitting it happens, much less, confronting it [e.g. mother to daughter abuse, etc],

so yea, on many issues, Australia, is just like, way advanced, got to hand it to them. I’ve gotten a lot of inspiration and help/information, from people there.

Peace,

Jane

Comment by Alastair

December 8, 2009 @ 2:22 am

Likewise this swings both ways. After meeting some humble, Godly, well-respected complementarian husbands and fathers, it helped me more seriously consider their point of view.

Comment by Liz

December 8, 2009 @ 5:17 am

That is so true, Alastair. We also know many humble, godly complementarians and your comment proves the point that observing Christians often is a more convincing argument than debating scripture interpretations.

Comment by Sue D.

December 8, 2009 @ 8:22 am

This is a great story and a perspective I personally needed to hear.

Along the same lines, I saw today that the CBMW Blog (Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood blog) has started taking comments after their articles. They are presenting a series on Godly men in the home. This is the first time I’ve ever noticed them taking comments on their blog. I was just thinking that maybe it would be a good opportunity for us to offer our perspectives to them on their blog in the spirit in which this article was written. So far, their blog comments mainly reflect one perspective.

Comment by Jane

December 8, 2009 @ 12:34 pm

Well, I’m a ‘separatist’. For me, it doesn’t matter if some ‘comp’ men are nice to their wives,

because here is the ugly reality, for half of the human race, discrimination, violence, sexual violence [including in Christian nations supported for years by the CHURCH--where women/girls, as young as three, are brutally gang raped and mutilated with impunity, e.g, Congo, parts of Kenya, etc], domestic violence, etc.,

and yet, we see that MEN, the boys joined at the loin club, Christian or not, will join forces, to protest women’s Human Rights, her Right over her own body, [all in the name of protecting fetuses but hey now if that fetus grows into a child and starves, or is used in cheap slave labor--big deal right, if that child is trafficked into sex slavery, big deal right, if men buy porn made of those sex slaves-women killed, well, poor poor dear, the 'wife' ain't putting out enough or SUBMITTING enough--men get off the hook, As Usual, [and I'm pro-life btw, just not a supporter of the 'for male wants' agenda].

When I see the majority of Christian men [comps or non-comps] support war and the escalation of war, propping up other ‘war lords who are misogynist to the core’ or supporting economic trade with despots who see nothing wrong with raping/killing girl children, because hey, its for cheap goods, its a Male World Baby and God ordained it that way mentality,

who CARES if there are some men who maybe, don’t beat their wives? They sure find enough time to support the loins club, both here and at home, to keep millions of women and children in their ‘place’ of subjugation to ALL MEN and MALE SYSTEMS, without even a TEAR, for those who cry out, those thousands who in desperation, will commit the most horrid forms of suicide just to escape male violence,

but now, when the men begin to rape men [Congo] THEN those same boys get all concerned over human rights, when the men begin to oppress other men, THEN those same boys get all Christian in concern,

its total bunk yet, we still support this. We still, as women, still look for those men who may be ‘kind’ masters, as if that changes anything for the millions of women and children who live with misogyny on a daily basis, misogyny that has been and still is, either support by the church or just ignored or ‘excuses made for’, because you know, we don’t want to get ‘too radical’ and demand human rights and dignity to women AS human beings, etc., that might isolate us,

and to that I say, sisters, when you are beaten by a husband and the church tells you its ‘your duty to put up with’ then you find how isolated you already are, or when you are raped and are the one criminalized or when you are brutalized in war and well don’t you know, its your fault for being gender and for having those ‘babies of the enemy’, etc.,

when you see the real horrors of misogyny, you realize, that you already ARE isolated…in that Rapunzel castle, the creation of none other than religious patriarchy, with ‘man’ as ‘god’.

You could comment on those blogs all day, it won’t change anything, it will give them ways to tear you down though, because point is, THEY DON’T CARE, why should they?

They are in POWER–they are and have PRIVILEGE, and they don’t want nor will they, ever give that up.

Meanwhile, there are thousands of women, who by themselves, for other women, need support and help, women fighting sexual violence, women fighting poverty, women trying to form communities and cities of refuge for Women and Children, with few resources and under constant threat–and guess who is part of that threat,

those same ‘brethren’ who in the name of God, feel entitled to women’s bodies, feel entitled to ‘control’ women’s bodies, who feel entitled to rule over All women, doing whatever they so feel like, when they feel like it.

So, there is a few, who aren’t so brutal to their ‘property’,

big deal. Who cares,

meanwhile, thousands of girls torch themselves to death, fleeing gang rape and forced marriages in Afghanistan and Iraq who live under corrupt despots and war lords SUPPORTED BY THE BOYS CLUB here in America [Taliban or Shites, its the same thing--girls and women suffer, horribly, but hey, lots of $$$ made by those arms to kill, yea baby, rah rah for the super supremacy male power there],

thousands of girls are killed in countries because they simply are girls–

thousands of women and girls are forced into the sex industry to earn a living–or worse, they are kidnapped/sold and forced into it,

and, we want to try and convince these women haters, who already ‘claiming to KNOW Christ’ feel entitled to suppress and subjugate women?

When do Women, begin to stop trying to ‘change men’ and begin to Support, Women? The constant trying to have sympathy, change men, is still, playing right into the hands of patriarchy, I for one, do not care anymore, for having ‘sympathy’ for the brute beast, they already Have their power and platforms and privileges, and I do not care, that a few, may be a tad nicer to their er, slaves, er, wives…

big deal.

To me, that means NOTHING, absolutely nothing, now, when I see those men, confront the other men, their brethren, for the garbage and the violence and the sexual violence that goes on with impunity towards women, when I see those same men, SHOW CHRIST and not just ‘lip service’, when I see those men,

holding other men Accountable, Then, then maybe I’ll spend time conversing with them, not until then…they don’t care about the oppressed and brutalized women in the world–they only care, to protect their ‘position’ of power over women,

so, to hell with them. That is how I see it anyway, I don’t wish them harm, God bless them and all that–but, I for one, wonder, when will women, start focusing on helping Women,

and leave, the boys club and their parrot ‘patriarchal women supporters’ alone?

We have thousands upon thousands, of women, girls, children, who need our help far more, our time and our energy–who need to see Christ,

just saying…

[on my blog, I am doing some coverage of the horrid realities of girls and women in Afghanistan, from THEIR voices, to raise awareness and support, and will be doing some coverage on current status of women elsewhere including the growing homeless women-mothers in This country–the need is great, and we need, women helping other women. The Muslims, have taken some steps, in New York, they have formed an underground ‘rescue’ for women and girls under real threat of honor killings and violence….we NEED that here, for Christian women,

seriously.

Peace, Jane

Comment by Liz

December 8, 2009 @ 5:36 pm

Believe it or not…..there are many men who do not see the connection between hierarchy and abuse. They do not recognise that there is that extreme position or if they do, they believe that it is just an aberration and that their version of headship will never lead to abuse.

For those of us who see the big picture we find it hard to separate the two but we need to accept that people are at various stages of enlightenment on many things.
I’m always reminded about John Newton who still traded slaves for 16 years after his conversion! How could this be when one of his best friends was William Wilberforce whose life’s work was to overturn slavery.

When John Newton did eventually ‘see the light’ he was so remorseful and it almost killed him as he thought of all the suffering he had endorsed.

What will bring enlightenment? Sometimes it is the indignation of people like Jane who tell the truth. God also uses other means of getting through to people.

Comment by jane

December 8, 2009 @ 8:04 pm

“For those of us who see the big picture we find it hard to separate the two but we need to accept that people are at various stages of enlightenment on many things.”

Granted, understandable,

not undermining that…on the other hand though, not near enough being done for women, by women, the focus is still on ‘changing men’ and well, LOL, if we haven’t learned that we ‘can’t change’ men in marriage, why do we think we can in the overall scheme of things?????

Meanwhile–women die, daily, horribly, with no hope, no forgiveness, hell they aren’t even in the Kingdom of God, except as baby makers [City of God--looks to me more like a male prison--not a whole lot different than Islam, I'm seeing that more and more].

Anyway that was what I was getting at, as for enlightenment,

I think, this reminds me of the debates when slavery here in America was issue [still is globally--but of course, majority of slaves are women, LOL], there were those who wanted to ‘reach out and educate the white man’ and then

there were those, who, well, were fed up with dying and bleeding,

its a good thing, numerous Blacks decided, not to wait on paternalism and ‘enlightenment’ or they’d still be slaves or Jim Crow laws would still be around. Oh, wait, I forgot, black president, and we Still have, white men, white women, who are in arms about that, simply because he’s black [I'm not an Obama fan, due to his policies, just saying],

well, so much for enlightenment, hmmmm

and as for the changing of things, well, I see it this way,

by the time, if anything Does change, the world will be extremely ‘underpopulated’ with women, in places it already is, or AIDS and HIV is soon to wipe out women, in parts of Africa, India, Nepal, all from sex trafficking. In South America, gendercide, is lessening the female population,

in Asia, suicide rates are tripling among women, in Afghanistan alone, over 600 women, committed or tried to commit suicide, this year, at least 71 thus far–41 percent of them die. That is, half,

so, maybe it don’t matter really, by the time men become enlightened, they’ll be marrying goats,

like the do in Sudan.

Go figure…

the joys of misogynist patriarchy…looks like Augustine may get his wish after all, an all ‘man’ city of god, right here, on PLANET EARTH.

Peace, solidarity,

Jane

Comment by Liz

December 8, 2009 @ 8:44 pm

I believe we should do both – work with the women for sure while trying to educate the church at the same time. Not every person is called to do both though.

Comment by jane

December 8, 2009 @ 9:01 pm

Well, I have a lot of admiration for those of you who are working to educate the church–you have FAR more Hope, than I will have,

so on that, I give you credit…and honor, and you have my support and prayers there.

I simply, just don’t have that hope–it died, long, long ago, and no matter how much I’ve tried to ‘develop’ it, there’s been too much damage,

and well, some things, don’t get healed, period. For those of us, and I’m not the only one, we pick up the pieces, the best we can, and help others, to pick up, what is left—

those, that haven’t died yet, or who haven’t killed themselves yet, sadly, those numbers, of women, are increasing, all the time,

meanwhile–Heaven, is silent. And maybe, that is why, I refuse to be…

Peace,

Jane

Comment by Mara

December 8, 2009 @ 9:04 pm

My friend Jane, is very much called to these women and is blazing a trail in that area that should have been blazed before now.
I hope to learn more from her and pass on what I learn to others.

I also have friends who are very much called to debate the promoters of patriarchy on patriarchy ‘soil’. And some of them confess that they debate the patriarchs more for the sake of the lurkers searching than for the patriarchs themselves.
Unfortunately, some/many of these patriarchs have hearts of stone. And they search for new converts and make them twice the sons of hell as themselves. There will be no converting them aside from divine intervention. But there can be a heading off of a tide of people ‘falling’ for their non-biblical teaching by countering it with the REAL truth of God’s word.

Anyway, long and short.
Some of my friends are eyes, some are hands, some are feet, etc.
They all have my blessing.
All together we make up the body, each one doing what we feel the Spirit leading us to do.

Comment by Fr. Bill Mouser

December 9, 2009 @ 9:52 am

… we need to accept that people are at various stages of enlightenment on many things. I’m always reminded about John Newton who still traded slaves for 16 years after his conversion! How could this be when one of his best friends was William Wilberforce whose life’s work was to overturn slavery.

Nothing in the above quotation is true.

Newton always observed May 10, 1748 as the anniversary of his conversion. But, William Wilberforce was not even born for another eleven years, on August 24, 1759.

Moreover, Newton did not continue in slave trade for 34 years after his conversion. He ceased six years later, in 1754. He remained publically silent on his repentence concerning slavery until he published a pamphlet on this topic in 1788. That was 34 years after his conversion.

Meanwhile, Newton and Wilberforce did not become friends until 1785, 37 years after Newton’s conversion.

Finally, it was not Wilberforce who influenced Newton to oppose the slave trade, but the other way round.

Newton was ordained an Anglican priest in 1764. Wilberforce’s spiritual conversion began 20 years later, in 1785. Only then did Wilberforce approach Newton (by then a well known Anglican clergyman and Rector of St. Mary Woolnoth in London) for advice on Wilberforce’s struggles with the doctrines of the faith and concerning his desire to resign from Parliament.

Newton urged Wilberforce to remain in Parliament. In subsequent correspondence, Newton wrote to Wilberforce often urging him to use his position in Parliament to abolish slave trading.

Jonathan Aitken, Newton’s biographer (John Newton: From Disgrace to Amazing Grace, Crossway 2007) writes this:

Newton’s greatest contribution to the campaign [to abolish slave trading] was his influence on Wilberforce at important moments. (Ibid., p. 317)

Comment by Frank

December 9, 2009 @ 10:48 am

Fr. Bill Mouser,

I have read Aitken’s biography of Newton, and it is a wonderful story of how God’s grace can tranform someone who did great evil as a sinner and then did great good as a servant of Christ. A story that should inspire us all to consider the spiritual and socio-political ramifications of the Gospel for today.

And though Liz may have been mistaken on some of the facts, as I recall, it was some years after his conversion-though before becoming Wilberforce’s spiritual mentor–that he was convicted of the evil of the slave trade and began to openly oppose it.

But what she said about people being at different stages of enlightment and our needing to be patient, but maintain loving and persistent instruction and encouragement so that they come to a fuller and more liberating knowledge of the Gospel Faith–well, isn’t that what Scripture itself teaches we are to do, especially those of us who are gifted and called to be ministers of Christ and his Word?

In Acts 18:24-26, we see that Apollos had a faulty understanding of Jesus and his misson, so when “Priscilla and Acquila heard” Apollos preaching, “they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.” And because of their loving and patient instruction and encouragement, when Apollos went to minister in Corinth, “he was a great help to those who by grace had believed. For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah” (Acts 18:27-28, TNIV)

And of course, the Apostle Paul has given this charge to all teachers: “And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will” (2 Tim. 2:23-26, TNIV). So when we hear people make some erroneous statements about Christ and the Gospel, whether due to ignorance or because they are opponents, let us take to heart Paul’s admonition and follow the example of Priscilla and Acquila.

Comment by Fr. Bill Mouser

December 9, 2009 @ 11:49 am

And though Liz may have been mistaken on some of the facts, as I recall, it was some years after his conversion-though before becoming Wilberforce’s spiritual mentor–that he was convicted of the evil of the slave trade and began to openly oppose it.

So far as I can tell, she was mistaken on every fact she alleged in the portion of her post that I quoted. The only places where her comments are accurate are in some of its premises (e.b. that Newton and Wilberforce knew one another and interacted with one another, that they both opposed slave trade, etc.)

…But what she said about people being at different stages of enlightment …

Ummm, I didn’t address this at all. But, since you brought it up, how does the mish-mash of the Newton-Wilberforce relationship lend any credibility to what she said about people being at different stages of enlightenment? She offers us the former as evidence for the latter, right?

Comment by Liz

December 9, 2009 @ 11:53 am

Thanks for the correction Bill. I must admit that I was repeating something I had heard without checking the facts. I knew though that it was indeed some significant time after his conversion that John Newton stopped his slave trade which was the point I was trying to make – that conversion doesn’t mean a person immediately gets everything right.

Seems I was also wrong about his friendship with Wilberforce. I do have the book here so should get busy and read it!

Frank…I totally agree about how we should gently admonish those whom we deem to be wrong. Part of the reason for being gentle is that we might also be wrong in certain things and need to always be aware of that possiblility.

Comment by Liz

December 9, 2009 @ 11:59 am

Bill…I was using the John Newton experience of delayed knowledge/action.or obedience to illustrate that people can be at different stages of understanding about certain issues. I’m sorry if I confused you by not stating the facts correctly.

Comment by Jane

December 9, 2009 @ 3:17 pm

“And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will” (2 Tim. 2:23-26, TNIV).”

Hmmm, so why then, do some spend time seeking the ‘opponents’ blogs, to write-debate on scripture, law, knowing full well that this only ‘feeds’ their cruelty, and most likely they won’t repent, meanwhile, the iniquity of abuse, particularly to women, goes ignored, or women wind up, with no help?

I don’t know but that I suppose could be seen in that way, which is why I don’t understand spending time on the ultra-patriarchal blogs ‘arguing’ with them, meanwhile, there are women who are leaving the churches in droves because there is no support for them, only lip service.

And it gives the impression, really that no one really ‘cares’ about the women, only the ‘arguments’ around the ‘law’. Women, are the pawns, so to speak…something Marx said that I believe has a lot of merit,

the point isn’t to ‘philosophize’ about the world but to change it.

The Bible, Paul, was also very clear and strong about also ‘rebuking’ those who were brawlers, disorderly, without remorse, he was also very clear about not having anything to do with them, to be separate, etc., there are numerous scriptures that also say, to exhort unto good works, good behavior, sound doctrine, to ‘excommunicate’ those ‘brothers’ who are violent, abusive, covetous, so forth, yet we don’t see that do we?

We see the ‘forgiveness’ and ‘gentleness scriptures’ often used ‘towards those who are abusive meanwhile, heaping and heaping the submission [and often perverted use of scripture] onto women to coerce them into putting up with all sorts of abuses, not caring about the children

who will then, learn Iniquity, and will pass down that Iniquity, to others, therefore what we have, is not a Body that glorifies Christ,

but Workers of Iniquity that run rampant and unchallenged. All in the name of ‘gentleness’.

Its like, people talking around the issues, meanwhile, those who actually Live and suffer under the abuses, not by the World no, but by the very ones who are IN THE BODY OF CHRIST, they suffer and suffer with no relief,

meanwhile, we discourse and talk all gentle like, with no consequences of actions, or discipline within the church–only of course, that isn’t the case with those women who Do finally get fed up and leave the abuse or who decide one day, to hell with this, its all bunk, [and who can blame them], only for the world to look and see, and blaspheme a Holy God because they see the Body of Christ, as being

partakers of evil, rather than good.

Like, how much time does one need, to repent WITHIN THE BODY OF CHRIST for ungodly behavior? This reminds me of Corinthians when Paul REBUKED the church and told them, such bragging about the man who is sexually immoral was not good, to excommunicate him Until he repents,

we don’t do that today, instead we criminalize the ‘victims’, we ostracize them, we talk around them, all the while,

having tea and cookies and philosophizing about the Law with the very ones, who push these abusive doctrines.

I don’t know, but I think, its really sad, that for the victims, of some of the most horrid abuses [that are even spewed from pulpits in many a church today as being 'right'] are going to THE WORLD,

for Love, for support, for any assistance whatsoever, and THAT, I think, says a lot. I know, for myself, if I need help, support, relief, the Church, is the LAST PLACE, I would go, I’d get more ‘love’ from a male prison,

than I would from any church.

But, hey, they sure can speak a lot and ‘talk’ about my situation and others like me, about the law and the glories of this and that…its just Unreal, its no wonder, I have lost faith, in so much.

Solidarity,

Jane

Comment by Liz

December 9, 2009 @ 6:14 pm

Jane…..I am just so sad that you have only encountered churches as you describe.

They may be hard to find, but there are groups who are not part of the whole system you describe. People who do work for the cause of abused women and who do not cover sin. As I said once before….there is the true church within the formal church and like the wheat and tares parable, God will sort it all out at the harvest.

Also…one reason some of us make the effort to try and help people (including men) see the truth of equality is because if those in power have their hearts changed then many will benefit. Teachers, pastors, authors have such a huge influence that if they change their minds it would go a long way to prevent abuse happening in the first place.

We need to do both – deal with the results of abuse and try to prevent it in the first place.

Comment by Liz

December 9, 2009 @ 6:34 pm

Just a reminder of the original post – that a gentle approach can be very powerful.

Comment by Fr. Bill Mouser

December 9, 2009 @ 7:10 pm

I’m sorry if I confused you by not stating the facts correctly.

Liz, no apology is needed for confusing me. I was not confused at all. I was dismayed, as I am always dismayed when I see one who names the name of Christ defending what he alleges as Christian truth by alleging facts that are demonstrably false.

If you wanted to appeal to Newton as an example of one whose repentence from slave trading came substantially after his initial conversion, that would have been enough — just to say that. What’s mysterious to me is that 34 years passed before Newton laid out his mature Christian thoughts on slave trading. You opine that he was slow to understand (always a possibility, of course). But 34 years? The sheer length of time suggests another reason for his silence, and you brought that up as well — shame (cf. Romans 6:21).

If you can recall the friend who conveyed to you the inaccurate facts, please alert him to the accurate facts. It would be a blessing to him, not a curse.

Liz, I agree with you that conversions are not “complete” when they begin. I’d even say they are never complete at the beginning. Repentence is not an event; it is a way of life. And my pastoral observations of Christians over 40 years shows me that some of the greatest repentence comes in the final years, even the final months, before the grave.

Meanwhile, corrections I offered are to help you avoid the error that we so often see in baby believers, errors through which I suffered scores of times at Campus Crusade for Christ meetings in my university days, when CCC would place one newly minted Christian after another before a crowd to give his testimony. They always contained personal revelations and affirmations about the gospel which were true; and these were always gummed up with personal revelations and appeals to extra-Christian authorities that discredited the truth they sought to communicate.

So, my corrections should help you. The point you wish to make is a valid one. It deserves solid defense that cannot be impeached.

As to the suggestions from Frank and you (and Jane?) that I am not “gentle,” I offer two thoughts.

First, to be told “you are wrong” in a public forum cannot be made into something pleasant. I have been told “you are wrong” in public settings enough times to know this (of course, I know it was unpleasant, because I was, indeed, wrong)

Second, I’d ask you to consider that I may be your friend if Proverbs 27:6 has any relevence here.

Comment by Mara

December 9, 2009 @ 8:18 pm

“I don’t know but that I suppose could be seen in that way, which is why I don’t understand spending time on the ultra-patriarchal blogs ‘arguing’ with them, meanwhile, there are women who are leaving the churches in droves because there is no support for them, only lip service.”

Actually my friends that I’m talking about have, for the most part, been banned from the ultra-patriarchal blogs because their arguements were causeing too much damage.
And some of the friends I’m talking about WERE the damaged women trapped in patriarchy ready to slide off into atheism or paganism.
But someone came into to the patriarchal blogs they frequented, challenged what was taken for granted and my friends (yes, I have more than one) saw it and it saved them from chucking Christianity altogether.

Going to patriarchal sites is not for everyone. It is definitly not for me.
But neither is going to athiests blogs. I have friends who do that as well, and do a great job at reasoning with the atheists. Rescuing some from the fire.

There are many walking wounded still trapped in those patriarchal circles. Many girls growing up in homeschool patriarchy home are just dieing inside due to the oppression of the legalism and overburdened with unreasonable expectations. And about no one can reach them except those who dare set foot onto patriarch soil. And I have friends who have ministries to such girls and have rescued some from such homes.

I kind of look at those girls like the muslim women trapped in their own homes here in the US and abroad. Who will reach them? Someone with a special gift who believes that God can make a way where there is no way.

May more doors open to minister to those trapped in patriarchy both here and elsewhere. No place is so God-forsaken that people cannot be reached. And I trust God that if a place ever does become ‘God-forsaken’ that God will move His workers onto better places.

Comment by Mara

December 9, 2009 @ 8:19 pm

oops. Sorry. The quote I have at the top of my post is from Jane’s post.

Comment by Jane

December 9, 2009 @ 8:58 pm

“As to the suggestions from Frank and you (and Jane?) that I am not “gentle,” I offer two thoughts”

never suggested it, wasn’t commenting on your post, just that one scripture. I actually thought what you said about Newton [whom I have no knowledge of] said a lot to me actually, I concur with Liz that change takes time, but I also see how that can also be used to ‘enable’ evil, so I see both sides of that coin.

Mara, you are right, for some, that may be the only way reached, but here’s something we need to keep in mind,

the majority of women in patriarchal homes, aren’t ALLOWED access to boards, to the internet, what ever they read/say is closely monitored so I doubt highly that discourse online does them much good, and even if they do read it,

it in no way provides them the support or resources they need to get out of the situations. That is where the hands on IS needed, and its simply, not there. [or if it is, what is really an insult, is that well, in America, its the Christian Right, who screams the most, against social programs that Do or Would assist women, particularly low income women, lets not forget that it was the gov of the Christian Right who cut funds, to domestic shelters AND rape crisis centers, as well as daycare funds, literally slashed across the boards, leaving thousands of women with no recourse But to stay in abusive situations [though in all fairness, the liberals aren't much better, they just use different means] but anyhow,

the thing is, getting help to the women/children who need it the most, is far more complex than simply discussing on patriarchal boards. NOT that–that isn’t needed, to keep the dialogue open, and I am not opposed to that,

my point is, there is way too much focus on this, but not near enough focus on the hands on work that is so needed. And there are way too many myths, that because the discourse is there, then many believe, the help is there too,

but like with many things, way too many women, fall between the cracks, and the sad fact is,

many, find more help, actually with those organizations that are Extremely hostile to Christianity, which only serves, along with the patriarchal nutjobs [which are not only the mainstream, they are also the more political, have more of the wealth-political backing, are more visible to the public eye and have far more social influence, not just in churches but in the public as a whole]. Anyway, because of this fact, or facts, I just feel that there needs to be some better strategies, at confronting the problems, just my opinion on that one,

I think there is ‘too much time’ at work trying to change the minds of extreme misogynist and backwards leaders, who after years are NOT going to give up their ‘privilege’ [and who have the resources and monies to preserve that privilege] and meanwhile,

we have thousands of women, children, teens, young adults, especially more young adults, who have absolutely no faith in today’s Christianity, BECAUSE of the patriarchs.

The thing is, there is, can’t speak for other nations but in the US, there is little emphasis on Real Sacrifice, a lot of lip service, but very rare sacrifice, generally speaking,

and I’m not the only one that has said this, there was a young man, who went around I believe for one years, as a homeless man and went to churches across this country, and he was horrified at the prejudice, the treatment, that he received. Lucky for him, he was a single male,

try doing that, with no hope of going to a home, With kids, after leaving an abusive marriage, only to hear your church say, ‘you should submit more’. Where is the Love? Its simply

not there.

And that is what people Do see, they don’t care about what is online so much, people know, that there are flame wars all over the place–while its good, the dialogue, I think its not so good that we depend on that, to reach people,

because for the majority of women, who like you said, Do need to be reached,

they aren’t sitting on a computer, and if they are near one, most likely, their husbands [or other warlocks and vampires] have enough control that they have limited access to what they can read. We I think, fall into a dangerous trap in believing that we can replace, the hands on, reaching out, with the cyber world,

not that-its not beneficial, not what I am saying, but I’ve seen FAR too many, make ‘excuses’ for NOT doing the hands on, and thinking, because they replace with the online discourse, that its enough to help those who can’t be reached,

its what we call in activism, arm chair activism. The internet-boards, yes, are very good, for getting the messages out there-but they are in no way, a replacement, for the hands on work,

and This, this is where the churches, are severely lacking.

Jane

Comment by Liz

December 9, 2009 @ 9:49 pm

Couldn’t agree more Jane, about the need to be ‘hands on’. There are never enough workers for these situations and we do what we can. Please don’t think for a minute that because I talk of interaction with those who believe differently that I’m saying that is all we can do. As Mara said….some do this extremely well and show seekers and those trapped that not everyone out there is as terrible as they have been taught.

It’s a bit like talking to people who are in sects. It can seem like a waste of time because they are so indoctrinated but….if there is just a tiny bit of doubt in the depth of a person’s heart, we should be there to give them hope.

Comment by Liz

December 9, 2009 @ 9:57 pm

Bill….I must correct you in that I said 16 years, not 34 – that number doesn’t appear anywhere that I can see. That aside…I did make a mistake in quoting something without checking and I have already apologised for that.

It’s not my usual way to randomly quote facts and figures without checking, but even then we have a saying in our home ‘We all choose our own experts’ and sooner or later we have to take someone’s word for many things.

I do appreciate your help in setting me straight about John Newton and don’t mind being corrected at all. I would disagree though with the thought that being corrected on a public forum is ‘unpleasant’. I am always open to correction and thank you again for pointing out my error – I will be more careful in future.

Comment by Fr. Bill Mouser

December 9, 2009 @ 10:19 pm

… I must correct you in that I said 16 years, not 34 …

Agreed. And, thank you for the correction.