Agreed. And, thank you for the correction.

It’s not my usual way to randomly quote facts and figures without checking, but even then we have a saying in our home ‘We all choose our own experts’ and sooner or later we have to take someone’s word for many things.

I do appreciate your help in setting me straight about John Newton and don’t mind being corrected at all. I would disagree though with the thought that being corrected on a public forum is ‘unpleasant’. I am always open to correction and thank you again for pointing out my error – I will be more careful in future.

It’s a bit like talking to people who are in sects. It can seem like a waste of time because they are so indoctrinated but….if there is just a tiny bit of doubt in the depth of a person’s heart, we should be there to give them hope.

never suggested it, wasn’t commenting on your post, just that one scripture. I actually thought what you said about Newton [whom I have no knowledge of] said a lot to me actually, I concur with Liz that change takes time, but I also see how that can also be used to ‘enable’ evil, so I see both sides of that coin.

Mara, you are right, for some, that may be the only way reached, but here’s something we need to keep in mind,

the majority of women in patriarchal homes, aren’t ALLOWED access to boards, to the internet, what ever they read/say is closely monitored so I doubt highly that discourse online does them much good, and even if they do read it,

it in no way provides them the support or resources they need to get out of the situations. That is where the hands on IS needed, and its simply, not there. [or if it is, what is really an insult, is that well, in America, its the Christian Right, who screams the most, against social programs that Do or Would assist women, particularly low income women, lets not forget that it was the gov of the Christian Right who cut funds, to domestic shelters AND rape crisis centers, as well as daycare funds, literally slashed across the boards, leaving thousands of women with no recourse But to stay in abusive situations [though in all fairness, the liberals aren't much better, they just use different means] but anyhow,

the thing is, getting help to the women/children who need it the most, is far more complex than simply discussing on patriarchal boards. NOT that–that isn’t needed, to keep the dialogue open, and I am not opposed to that,

my point is, there is way too much focus on this, but not near enough focus on the hands on work that is so needed. And there are way too many myths, that because the discourse is there, then many believe, the help is there too,

but like with many things, way too many women, fall between the cracks, and the sad fact is,

many, find more help, actually with those organizations that are Extremely hostile to Christianity, which only serves, along with the patriarchal nutjobs [which are not only the mainstream, they are also the more political, have more of the wealth-political backing, are more visible to the public eye and have far more social influence, not just in churches but in the public as a whole]. Anyway, because of this fact, or facts, I just feel that there needs to be some better strategies, at confronting the problems, just my opinion on that one,

I think there is ‘too much time’ at work trying to change the minds of extreme misogynist and backwards leaders, who after years are NOT going to give up their ‘privilege’ [and who have the resources and monies to preserve that privilege] and meanwhile,

we have thousands of women, children, teens, young adults, especially more young adults, who have absolutely no faith in today’s Christianity, BECAUSE of the patriarchs.

The thing is, there is, can’t speak for other nations but in the US, there is little emphasis on Real Sacrifice, a lot of lip service, but very rare sacrifice, generally speaking,

and I’m not the only one that has said this, there was a young man, who went around I believe for one years, as a homeless man and went to churches across this country, and he was horrified at the prejudice, the treatment, that he received. Lucky for him, he was a single male,

try doing that, with no hope of going to a home, With kids, after leaving an abusive marriage, only to hear your church say, ‘you should submit more’. Where is the Love? Its simply

not there.

And that is what people Do see, they don’t care about what is online so much, people know, that there are flame wars all over the place–while its good, the dialogue, I think its not so good that we depend on that, to reach people,

because for the majority of women, who like you said, Do need to be reached,

they aren’t sitting on a computer, and if they are near one, most likely, their husbands [or other warlocks and vampires] have enough control that they have limited access to what they can read. We I think, fall into a dangerous trap in believing that we can replace, the hands on, reaching out, with the cyber world,

not that-its not beneficial, not what I am saying, but I’ve seen FAR too many, make ‘excuses’ for NOT doing the hands on, and thinking, because they replace with the online discourse, that its enough to help those who can’t be reached,

its what we call in activism, arm chair activism. The internet-boards, yes, are very good, for getting the messages out there-but they are in no way, a replacement, for the hands on work,

and This, this is where the churches, are severely lacking.

Jane

Actually my friends that I’m talking about have, for the most part, been banned from the ultra-patriarchal blogs because their arguements were causeing too much damage.
And some of the friends I’m talking about WERE the damaged women trapped in patriarchy ready to slide off into atheism or paganism.
But someone came into to the patriarchal blogs they frequented, challenged what was taken for granted and my friends (yes, I have more than one) saw it and it saved them from chucking Christianity altogether.

Going to patriarchal sites is not for everyone. It is definitly not for me.
But neither is going to athiests blogs. I have friends who do that as well, and do a great job at reasoning with the atheists. Rescuing some from the fire.

There are many walking wounded still trapped in those patriarchal circles. Many girls growing up in homeschool patriarchy home are just dieing inside due to the oppression of the legalism and overburdened with unreasonable expectations. And about no one can reach them except those who dare set foot onto patriarch soil. And I have friends who have ministries to such girls and have rescued some from such homes.

I kind of look at those girls like the muslim women trapped in their own homes here in the US and abroad. Who will reach them? Someone with a special gift who believes that God can make a way where there is no way.

May more doors open to minister to those trapped in patriarchy both here and elsewhere. No place is so God-forsaken that people cannot be reached. And I trust God that if a place ever does become ‘God-forsaken’ that God will move His workers onto better places.

Liz, no apology is needed for confusing me. I was not confused at all. I was dismayed, as I am always dismayed when I see one who names the name of Christ defending what he alleges as Christian truth by alleging facts that are demonstrably false.

If you wanted to appeal to Newton as an example of one whose repentence from slave trading came substantially after his initial conversion, that would have been enough — just to say that. What’s mysterious to me is that 34 years passed before Newton laid out his mature Christian thoughts on slave trading. You opine that he was slow to understand (always a possibility, of course). But 34 years? The sheer length of time suggests another reason for his silence, and you brought that up as well — shame (cf. Romans 6:21).

If you can recall the friend who conveyed to you the inaccurate facts, please alert him to the accurate facts. It would be a blessing to him, not a curse.

Liz, I agree with you that conversions are not “complete” when they begin. I’d even say they are never complete at the beginning. Repentence is not an event; it is a way of life. And my pastoral observations of Christians over 40 years shows me that some of the greatest repentence comes in the final years, even the final months, before the grave.

Meanwhile, corrections I offered are to help you avoid the error that we so often see in baby believers, errors through which I suffered scores of times at Campus Crusade for Christ meetings in my university days, when CCC would place one newly minted Christian after another before a crowd to give his testimony. They always contained personal revelations and affirmations about the gospel which were true; and these were always gummed up with personal revelations and appeals to extra-Christian authorities that discredited the truth they sought to communicate.

So, my corrections should help you. The point you wish to make is a valid one. It deserves solid defense that cannot be impeached.

As to the suggestions from Frank and you (and Jane?) that I am not “gentle,” I offer two thoughts.

First, to be told “you are wrong” in a public forum cannot be made into something pleasant. I have been told “you are wrong” in public settings enough times to know this (of course, I know it was unpleasant, because I was, indeed, wrong)

Second, I’d ask you to consider that I may be your friend if Proverbs 27:6 has any relevence here.

They may be hard to find, but there are groups who are not part of the whole system you describe. People who do work for the cause of abused women and who do not cover sin. As I said once before….there is the true church within the formal church and like the wheat and tares parable, God will sort it all out at the harvest.

Also…one reason some of us make the effort to try and help people (including men) see the truth of equality is because if those in power have their hearts changed then many will benefit. Teachers, pastors, authors have such a huge influence that if they change their minds it would go a long way to prevent abuse happening in the first place.

We need to do both – deal with the results of abuse and try to prevent it in the first place.