Thank you for your comments on the “disappearance” of my 1997 book. “Priscilla’s Letter” was off the market for three years until it was re-issued by Lost Coast Press. There is now a new printing, and the book
was translated into Spanish last year under the title “La Carta de Priscila.” The translator is Benjamin Alfaro, a minister in the Assembly of God Church.
I am thankful for these developments, and for your concern.

Ruth Hoppin

Thankfully, however, I stayed grounded in believing that marriage can be a good and fruitful partnership due to my parents’ 30 year marriage that stands as an egalitarian example. (That, and an eye-opening undergrad degree in religion & church history).

So I pursued my career and personal passions – traveling, becoming a medical doctor, advancing public health, international liberation of persecuted women, etc all with the gusto of my loud, energetic, passionate personality. And the man of my dreams fell into my lap – and he’s nothing like the man John & Stasi Eldredge describe (which I wouldn’t have wanted, anyway!) and everything that was perfect as my partner. We have loved (almost) every minute of our 5 year journey together, and I feel enabled, empowered, and encouraged to walk in my God-given gifts like never before.

To answer the question posted by Ryan and Anna:

A. Mutual authority and submission
B. Freedom from gender stereotypes and roles
C. Both
D. Other

We fit into the BOTH category but (as stated by Trevor), “the authority part doesn’t come into the equation, just mutual submission.” Submission birthed out of love and partnership isn’t ever obligatory and isn’t even very painful. It’s natural. Seeking to be the authority in an egalitarian relationship runs the risk of setting one partner as the one “in charge” – thus demanding submission from the other. We are both in charge, and if one person decides to submit to the other in a particular situation, it doesn’t mean the other partner is the “authority figure” or the “winner.” Quite the contrary. Sometimes when I choose to be the one that submits, I actually feel like the winner for having a partner that I so delight in serving/honoring with mutual submission. Hope that makes sense.

I already ache for the marriages that so many of my Christian friends suffer through – I truly believe that the missing “key” is an egalitarian approach.

Blessings to all and may we act out the truth of God’s design for marriage to the best of human ability so that it may be the reflection of His Kingdom, as intended.

Lolly, I’ve seen this too but Only on certain scriptures, usually about women and slaves. But something Jesus brought to my attention one day when praying about Just this fact,

where he told the Pharisees, ‘render to Caesar what is Caesars and to God what is God’s.

When you go back with that in mind, and re-read all those texts by Paul [and Jude] on submission/slaves, women, etc., and where Peter also goes into-then you see a lot of other things too,

and the meaning is changed, a lot. ONE KEY here that I think, really nailed it for me, is how that one woman, Pearl or Purl, whatever, and some like her have been telling women to ‘submit’ to even sin, and that God won’t hold them liable [and personally, I think that one woman-don't recall her name- should be held liable under the LAW for attributing to child sexual abuse, because she quoted to One woman to Submit and take her husband back, to put her Children in danger, in my book, the LAW should arrest her ON the Spot. [its on Ex Quiverfull]

but anyway, they are Cults, make no mistakes about it, and Paul himself, would Rebuke them, because of Corinthians, where he talks of the man who was sexually immoral and they did not ex-communicate, see that is where a lot of these teachings on submission, have been So warped by lustful pedophiles and abusers, Wolves Paul called them and HE did warn us about them. Satan transforms himself into an Angel of Light, Jude calls them ‘brute beasts’ who feed their bellies, that is lust–not just food.

But anyway, what nailed it for me, is the one they always use in Peter, I went back, and God said, go back a few verses and Read, and it says, where it talks about Jesus obeying unto death–that Jesus DID NOT SIN. And where it says, after, that suffering according to the Will of God.

See, there is Huge difference there, in what submission is, it is Never to do Iniquity or to Sin.

OR, a really big one I saw–in Word, to cause another to Stumble [that includes Children] or to Offend.

See, balance, when the Whole Word of God is not taken then there is imbalance, and Satan always does this, he takes things, a little bit of Truth, and puts in a LIE into-and Always, to paint a horrible picture of Who God is.

So, I don’t think anymore its so much of what Paul wrote but how the translators placed it AND how they worded it. And remember, the KING gave permission so, I have wondered, how much of the translation was to ‘appease’ the King? I don’t know, but the thought has crossed my mind. [Catholic history and their relationship with appeasing Kings, even benefiting profit wise, just like the Pharisees did with the Romans, usually its for keeping power and Money].

So, I can’t say, like for sure, you know, I wasn’t There back then, but I do think, because Jesus said, the Holy Spirit would lead you into all Truth, not the Bible will lead you into all Truth,

that the only way of really Knowing, is getting on our face before God and praying, repenting, and praying,

and Staying there. Seeking non-stop, no matter what.

IT is not easy though, we like Guarantees, if like me, one has not lived a ‘good’ life, the enemy comes in with all the reminders of just how rotten we are [I am] and well, yea, doubts come in, a lot,

and then it doesn’t help when one goes to ‘teachings’ and sees this, that, and the teachings, Especially the Promises, don’t add up to Reality.

I got to a place where, am I wrestling with God or am I wrestling with doctrines of demons and I don’t really Know God? The Fruit in my self and in my life didn’t bear witness, NOT if I believe in God’s WORD. Oh sure, People will tell you, oh yea you’re fine and blah blah blah,

but Paul said, to test ourselves to see if we are Reprobate. And to do that, one must be Honest with God–ugliness and all, besides, He knows us anyway, right? Its kind of stupid to try and play Him but we do, out of Fear, I think…tell Him what we think He wants to hear, etc.

It was when I told God, I don’t believe in this crock anymore that He showed me, just how little I knew–but its NOT easy, because to Know Him, I am finding, is to sort of walk alone–it IS to suffer because LIFE does not fit in this world of Death–without Sorrow. This world Grieves the Holy Spirit,

as do we, you know…I see there is a ‘tearing’ sort of, a very painful one–Watchman Knee talked about this, in “The Spiritual Man”, that is how Entrenched that tree of Death is in us. Its not just in our beliefs but in our passions [emotions] and in our will and in our thoughts, you name it, its there…our lens especially.

And I am finding, Most of all, WE can’t get to that place, through the Eyes and Words of others, we have to Walk it, ourselves, like childbirth, we can Hear from others but until we Go through it, we don’t know that tunnel, know what I am saying?

So I think, its really, this: Getting Serious, about Knowing God, no matter What the Cost. And its in that Cost–that the flesh,
will rise up, sure, it wants to Live. That tree of death does NOT want to die,

but IF we are to truly live, it Has too.

And I am finding, its NOT easy, getting to surrender to that place, not easy at all, and dead works, ain’t it either,

one can be in the flesh and do all those martyr works, Muslims are Experts at this. But its still that death tree,

and in the end, if its still that, God says, it WILL DIE.

And Paul, wrote tons on this–so,

well, yea, glad I wrote this…needed it for myself really. :)

Jane

1. Most comps will never change. Why should they? They have all the power they want. To admit they’re wrong and actually treat women as equals would mean gaining nothing (in their eyes) and losing everything. (Even women comps have some power, since they’re not held accountable before God for their actions. As has been discussed before here on this blog, many comp women actually like this idea, which is why often they can defend the system as well as their men).

To my mind, the situation is exactly analagous to the old slaveowners/segregationists. There’s a reason why we had to fight a war to end slavery. There’s a reason why voting rights had to be imposed from the top down by Congress. If we had waited for white racists to gradually see that black people were equal, then black people today would probably still be doing our laundry and calling us “Master and Mistress”. This is one area where I disagree with CBE. Instead of wasting my time playing nicey-nice and having “dialogue” with the comps, I’d rather reach out to people like you, Jane, who have walked away from God precisely because of them. You’ll listen. They won’t.

2. Your point about “Paul undermining Jesus.” That’s another area where I disagree with CBE. When I first left the comp fold, I followed CBE’s line of accepting the Bible at face value, including the fact that Paul wrote all those nasty verses about women. I believed all the excuses they made for him. “He was adressing a local situation. It was a bad translation.” Etc. etc.

Then I read Elisabeth Schussler Forenza’s book [em]In Memory of Her[/em], and it really got me to thinking. I can’t remember the exact quote (I’d have to go dig the book out and look through it). However, she said roughly what you did, Jane. Here’s my aproximation. “Jesus came to earth with a radical message that offended the Establishment so much that they killed Him. Then Paul came and told women to be silent, keep out of the men’s business of running the church, and submit to their husbands. In other words, don’t ruffle feathers, try to fit in as much as possible so as not to offend the culture around you. That’s hardly the radical gospel that Jesus preached. In fact, Jesus specifically told His followers to expect conflict, division, and persecution.”

The more I thought about this, the more I came to agree with her. I read more books about the Bible and came to see the obvious: Paul is pretty darn schizophrenic when it comes to women. He praises certain individual women, but tells women in general to keep silent and submit to their husbands. Yes, you can make excuses for individual passages, but those passages are very obscure. If Paul wanted to clearly state that women were equal, then why didn’t he clarify those passages? Surely he would have known how open to misinterpretation they would be, especially given how extremely patriarchal his culture was? Instead, the appearance we get is of a typical patriarchalist, willing to praise certain women who were “above their sex” but in general thinking that women needed to stay home and out of sight. (History is replete with examples of this. During her lifetime, Queen Victoria was greatly revered by the British people, but this in no way translated into equal rights for British women. In fact, even Victoria herself didn’t think women should have rights.)

Now I have come to a view that is accepted by many scholars: that Paul didn’t write those verses. They were inserted by later mysoginist writers to invoke Paul’s authority for their negative views of women, which of course were culturally conditioned. To me that makes a whole lot more sense than trying to plug a gap here and a gap there in Paul’s thinking.

I also agree with you, Jane, that the OT (or at least the Bible up to Paul) is far less mysoginistic. In the OT you get all those great stories of strong women like Deborah and Esther (and if you accept the Apocrypha, then you get more strong women such as Judith and Susanna). In the gospels you get Anna, the Virgin Mary, and Mary Magdalene, to name a few. And then…silence. Yes, Paul names a few women, but that’s just it. [b]Paul[/b] names them, and that’s about all we get, names. With the exception of Priscilla, we know nothing about these women except that Paul likes them. He doesn’t tell us anything about them, and we never hear from the women themselves (unlike, say, Deborah and the Virgin Mary, who both sang songs). So I totally agree with you, Jane, that I don’t like Paul’s writing nearly as much as I like the rest of the Bible.

BTW, there’s an excellent book entitled [em]Priscilla’s Letter[/em], that advances the thesis that she wrote Hebrews. I’m not sure if I agree with the author; however, there’s a good reason to get it. When it was first published, the comps pressured the publisher to stop printing it, and the printer bowed to the pressure and yanked the book. You’ll probably have to do what I did, scrounge a used copy from one of those sites like Alibris. If you do, however, at least you’ll be telling the comps that alternative viewpoints can’t be silenced, even if they don’t want to hear them.

Here is the link to CBE’s group page:

http://www.facebook.com/#/group.php?gid=2204593138&ref=ts

The post, I now see, is made by a white woman in West Africa and is in response to a November 12th question (so you need to scroll down a lot). A simple post, but it is still good to hear more cultural perspective.

There are good-hearted people trying to live the Christian life who simply don’t know and are surrounded by people and teaching that wants to keep them ignorant.