The CBE Scroll

Comment by Deborah

February 5, 2010 @ 7:19 pm

Hi,

One of my favorite pastors always talks of his smoking hot wife and does mention her other qualities as well. Many of these happen to fall in more stereotypically female realms like compassion which he relishes in as feminine (so that can kind of play into stereotypes, however unwittingly), but at least he does elevate her in multiple ways. I do love the way they interact but also do wonder if I can be accepted and celebrated for my very different giftings, many of which are not in these areas.

It is complex.

I don’t mind the elevation of beauty per se. It is good to see couples keeping the fires “hot” after all those years.

Sometimes the emphasis, of course, in such situations is on beauty to the point that daughters (and parishoners) overfocus on it…..

Additionally, in the ministry (and for pastors’ wives) there is unfortunately a demand upon them that they meet the criteria of public women (high standards for looks and grooming) while simultaneously not being too sexy. This bothers me.

Deb

Comment by Deborah

February 5, 2010 @ 8:26 pm

Oh, and I should add that sometimes I feel belittled when someone is complimenting my looks, especially an older man, when it is in a tone that that is what my worth is summed up in. I don’t know how to explain this, except that sometimes it just seems crystal clear to my spirit. I’ve also delighted in some simple comments from men on my looks–both fatherly men and peers. It depends on so many things….

I know that Christian men in college never managed to touch my heart. Even in an environment where they value minds and where I was a merit scholar, I felt too one-dimensional in accord w/ the roles they’d been taught. I was more tempted by some of the non-Christians despite having a life and goals that really revolve around the spiritual life.

Again, I don’t mind an emphasis on looks IN the right context, but the context was somewhat lacking with these Christian college men. And I think this is what your post is getting at… men who unwittingly aren’t giving enough context and are perpetuating society’s standard of women’s (oh so fleeting as the body goes its course) value. Their wives probably love to be called beautiful, but even such a comment can become oppressive when you never get the “what else.”

Great title for your post!!

Comment by Liz

February 5, 2010 @ 10:05 pm

I think that some of it is just a bad habit which people copy, without thinking about it. Personally, I don’t like being complimented on my appearance by anyone other than my husband (and not from the pulpit either) There is so much more to a person than how they appear on the outside. I love it when people make reference to wisdom, a listening ear, compassion or other virtues (as long as it is not flattery).
Come to think of it, it seems hard for people to make encouraging comments to each other without guile or some secondary motive. I’ve often wondered if it is just an Australian thing where people seem uncomfortable saying nice things about each other – more usual to make jokes or being slightly sarcastic. In my limited time with American Christians, they seem better able to give compliments which are sincere and not extreme. Maybe it’s just because it’s mostly CBE people and they are usually free from seeing people in stereotypical ways…praise the Lord!

Comment by Bookslinger

February 5, 2010 @ 10:30 pm

BJM: And if someone fails to praise their spouse’s physical appearance, that stands out as much, perhaps more, than praise of only the physical appearance. For if you only praise non-physical attributes, then people may likely infer that your spouse is physically unattractive to you, and that you’re claiming an overall attraction “in spite of” the lack of physical appeal. (Kind of like the “sweet spirit” moniker being the equivalent of a dig.)

I think sincere people realize that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so when describing a spouse, I think praise describes more about your relationship than about any absolute personal qualities.

Comment by Jane

February 6, 2010 @ 1:12 am

Don’t think so,

one reason I quit the church I attended [after not attending for years and I will only go back for the kids and Only that reason] was when the pastor referred to his wife as ‘hot’.

I think one, it’s a bit immature and shallow beyond belief, like uh, are we Still in High School???? And two, it reinforces the whole women as nothing more than sexual commodities valued for Body Parts and Facial Image, nothing more.

It’s insulting and degrading, and what is More deplorable, is that it Shows, just HOW much women in the Christian culture have Such low self esteem that the Only means in which they feel Affirmed in the community is IF their husband says, oh yea she’s beautiful.

Not she accomplished such and such or she wrote a brilliant thesis or literary work or she is great help to the community, etc.

And worse, the church, had Hula Girls for a church picnic, that was the Last Straw for me, What’s next,

STRIPPERS AND POLE DANCING?

Seriously, its bad enough that we live and are bombarded with a raunch sex culture without our Brethren reinforcing that garbage. Paul said, to Treat the Sisters with ALL PURITY, what Part of that, do brothers not Get?
That includes, putting up some sexist Standard that is a measurement of women, based on sexuality.

Do some MEN even think? Do some women?

And women Play into this too, this isn’t just a ‘man’ problem, in both Christian and Secular. NO matter HOW BRILLIANT OR SUCCESSFUL A WOMAN IS OR WHAT SHE CONTRIBUTES, ITS ALWAYS, OH, WAIT, SEE I CAN RAISE YOUR BLOOD, SEE, PLEASE AFFIRM ME…and that is Why we see the plastered media images and men’s magazines [Maxim, etc] of Intelligent women who feel they Have to strip and show to affirm,that yes, they are sexual.

Its even in academics, Hannah Ardent, Brilliant woman and I do mean brilliant, but oh no, she simply could NOT be valued based on her brilliant works and findings on the Origins Of Totalitarianism [and her works have been So beneficial in the fields of Human Rights], oh no, they Had to dig up and publish her letters between her and Hiediggar (sic) because you know have to know if she is Sexual or not, if she has what it takes,

I mean, Come on. Its ONE thing, to get this rubbish in the world–bad enough, but can’t the Church, have just a Bit more wisdom here?

It Does send a STRONG message and ESPECIALLY TO THE YOUNGER LISTENERS, YOU KNOW, THOSE DAUGHTERS?

So we have hundreds of young women who Starve themselves to look BEAUTIFUL AND HOT and the first moron who says, oh yea babe you’re beautiful, well,

don’t take a genius to figure That out, and we think teaching Abstinence is the answer to teen sex?

Not if we keep perpetuating a Culture that is all about a woman’s worth = her Beauty. IF the Church keeps Insisting on perpetuating this,

you know, guess what, just Go ahead, hand some condoms to your daughters and be done with it, because really, THAT IS THE MESSAGE, you are sending them, Honey, you’re ONLY worth, is your Beauty and your Sexuality.

and Nothing, more.

In solidarity,

Jane

Comment by Jane

February 6, 2010 @ 1:39 am

Sorry but got to voice here, this is ONE of the Big issues I do write about–

Women, oh yea, I’m gonna talk to some Women here, in a LOT of ways Women are MORE to blame than the Men. OH yea, those ‘women ministries’ and the whole obsession with Weight? Its bad enough that we’ve been Dumbed down to nothing more than married to Houses and trinkets and dust collectors in our little ‘domesticated world while the Rest of the world Rots around us’,

to have week after week spewing these ‘lessons’ to women about their [puke] roles, to Top that off, then it’s the ‘come have fellowship and Aerobics’ and well you know, got to get out that Measuring stick,

you know Ladies, do the Brethren do this too, like you know, get together in Christ and measure each other/size each other up, stomach and chest etc.

NO, so, then Why do women do this? CAN we do Nothing more than This?

And then, to have the GALL to blame FEMINISTS, for the demise in Marriages and Family and Community? HA!

ITs REALLY PATHETIC SISTERS and you know, many of you hear me, that the Majority of Churches, the Majority of Women have NOT A CLUE WHAT WOMEN OVERSEAS ARE GOING THROUGH? OR how consumption plays into so many oppressors OR how the clothes they buy are made by slaves. IT is even MORE PATHETIC, that the Majority of Churches, don’t have a Woman’s Intercessory Prayer circle, and NO, not for ‘marriage and sexual dysfunctions’ for crying out loud,

but for Women, our Sisters in North Korea or in Iran or in Saudi

sorry, if I sound a tad bitter but you know, THIS is what I have SEEN not only in Churches but in the MAJORITY OF CHRISTIAN WOMEN BLOGS. What do I see, other than ‘my house is pretty’ and shop, shop, shop and shop,

I see, Beauty shampoos and conditioners and there are even lingerie groups out there for Christian women,

meanwhile I see Pagan women, doing the Work that Christian women SHOULD BE DOING OR AT LEAST, CARING ABOUT. But no, what we have is women [there ARE exceptions] that are so Wrapped up in God forbid, if a man doesn’t compliment them or if they Don’t fit into that ‘beauty mold’ or ’susy homemaker’ mold they go into Weeks of depression,

and then, it’s the I prayed and need deliverance from Sugar. Seriously, I’ve Heard this nonsense come out of so many Christian women’s mouths…or I prayed and I am losing ten pounds, like, er, Why? Be thankful that you aren’t infested with worms and don’t look like an Auschwitz survivor, like Thousands of women look like in places like Kenya and Somalia and Vietnam and Cambodia,

talking about many who are our Sisters in Christ.

Yea, these I know, are Strong words, but sometimes Strong words ARE needed. For the past Two years, this is what I have seen, in Women’s ministries,

not ONE, not a ONE about missions or intercession or outreach [other than fundraisers for church] or any thing of the sort–and Again,

the Young women look to us, as Role Models.

We can have pagan like for Rome Vestas Purity Balls until we are Blue in the Face–but if All these young daughters are hearing from Women is beauty, shopping, submission, then That is all these young women will model themselves after.

What happens, when women get past the age of 50? I’ll tell you what happens, it’s called

Prozac.

This is one area we can yes, put a lot of blame on Patriarchy, but here’s the deal–MEN ain’t in those Women’ ministries, they aren’t the ones teaching the Aerobics and bust increasing classes and talking Botox.

That is Women’s doing..and only WOMEN CAN CHANGE IT.

IF women Play into those constructs, then they really can’t complain when the MEN simply are being MEN. AND what’s more, they Really can’t complain, if those MEN are all into Porn. Because if we women, insist on feeding Into that beast,

then, yes, we are feeding into the very beast that consumes us.

Here’s my deal, I don’t care HOW pretty you are or how pretty your house is or if you bow to your husband and wash his feet every night…IF that is all you have and are,

that’s sad, really, really sad.

Give me a woman, don’t matter What she looks like or if she weighs 200 lbs, IF she is concerned for others outside her little ‘closed world’ and if she is working for literacy or against poverty or for immigrant rights or for animal rights or Something…

in my book, She is a Heroine. She is a woman to admire and to model myself after and SHE is the woman, I want my daughters to know about.

This issue Really annoys me because when I go to churches and I see YOUNG women, who are Already feeling enough pressure from Peers as it is, being influenced not by male teachings, but by the participation of those constructs by other Women–and in WOMEN MINISTRIES OF ALL PLACES, and these young women already have enough trouble with self esteem, and the only measure they are getting is their beauty and ability to ‘ATTRACT A HUUUSSSBAND’,

That is infuriating. It really is, SO MUCH POTENTIAL, being Wasted. So MUCH POTENTIAL.

and its NOT just men–its Women too.

Sorry, but I had to say it.

Jane

Comment by Liz

February 6, 2010 @ 3:39 am

Yes..strong words Jane and it gets to the heart of so much of what happens within the church world. But be encouraged…it is not like that everywhere or in all churches!
Many women struggle to be true to Christ in the midst of such idolatry and are confused by it all. Many don’t see the issues, even though they are not happy with what goes on.
There are some strong words in the bible about how we are to view people (like to not look at anyone ‘after the flesh’ but to see Christ in them) Sadly, in our materialistic culture it all gets blurred and the true light of the gospel is obscured.
But….we are called to be light and salt and can all do something to change this situation, both here and overseas. May we demonstrate a far better way to live and influence the younger generation.

Comment by Jane

February 6, 2010 @ 11:40 am

.”we are called to be light and salt and can all do something to change this situation, both here and overseas. May we demonstrate a far better way to live and influence the younger generation.”

Agreed Liz,

but let me ask a serious question that needs to be looked at Truthfully.

I do not know the influence of culture, how deep it is entrenched/other than the influence of Colonization in Europe and other nations–I realize the development in Australia/culture is also far different, from her conception to the issues with the Aborigines, i.e. culture conflicts, Aborigine rights and what has been at conflict where children’s rights are concerned, etc. I know that part because it is a Huge controversy among the women of color in THIS nation, why I know a bit about it BUT even then, I don’t know enough about the cultural ‘thinking’ development there–just know there are some Stark differences, in many ways far more progressive and in many ways not, etc. goes for any country and we do NOT keep that in mind Near enough–Culture among ‘whites’ in nations is Not Hegemonic, including Christian Culture. so with that fact in mind,

Looking at it from what I know of the American Culture, CAN women Truly be a ‘light’ in the churches where these issues are concerned WITHOUT EVENTUALLY HAVING TO ASSIMILATE TO CONTINUE TO BE A PART OF?

And THAT question is not asked nor Realistically looked at BECAUSE those Culture influences are NOT just in the Church they are in the World but to Have them Reinforced in the Church WITH THE ADDITIONAL ‘INTERNALIZATIONS’ OF GENDER, WITH THE ‘INTIMATE SPACES’ IN WHICH WOMEN’S CONSTRUCTS ARE USED TO ‘CONFINE HER INCLUDING WITHIN HERSELF’

can she Truly be FREE enough to stand Alone and NOT be Influenced to Assimilate?

I say NO, she cannot, NOT only that, SHE cannot seriously expect to not see her Daughters influenced and pressured to Assimilate even IF the mother does not. So then, we basically are looking at Sacrificing our Daughters on the altar of Culture and this IS what is occurring.

Spiritually we cannot Sit at TWO TABLES, Jesus said so, a LITTLE LEAVEN LEAVENS THE ENTIRE LUMP.

And this is why Liz, I believe that Eventually the course of Separatist Movements Will have to be looked at, to Separate and be Sanctified, because if not,

the movement WILL DIE. OR it will be So repressed and defiled by COMPROMISE that eventually it will Wither away. And the next generation, it simply will be a ‘moment in passing, a Phase the women went through, etc’.

UNTIL women arrive at a CONSCIOUSNESS of BEING THE OPPRESSED AS A ‘GENDER CLASS’ AND FACE

the COLONIZATION OF THEIR MINDS,

they will Never be able to Break the Chains that bind them.

What women in the church need more than Anything is a DECOLONIZATION OF THE ‘MIND’, and That will NOT happen with the daily and weekly and intimate Identification with the ‘mastas’ and the doctrines that so keep them Colonized as a GENDER CLASS.

Women in Religion to day are the WRETCHED OF THE EARTH,

there will Never be Freedom, until she Rises up and Separates herself, as a Separate Human Being, apart from ALL CONSTRUCTS.

And that, truly is at the heart of the issues here…the Conflict arises from the basis of the Unity Belief, that we are to be Unified in Christ,

but like in anything else, CAN there be Peace WITHOUT Justice?

NO, there cannot, and there cannot be FREEDOM FROM ASSIMILATION WHEN THERE IS COLONIZATION.

“Liberate the minds of men [WOMEN] and ultimately you will liberate the bodies of men. [WOMEN]” Marcus Garvey

Can’t Liberate the Minds of Women while those Same Women are in a Culture where they are Forced to Assimilate even if temporary without expecting Internalizations to occur and to be Deep, especially with all the Reinforcements of the world. Its an Oxymoron to think it can work.

Someone said on CBE years ago [I've been reading] that what this movement needs is a MLK. I say, NO, what this movement needs is also a Malcom X.

We FORGET that part, it wasn’t MLK alone that created social and Cultural change, it was Also the Decolonization of hundreds of African American Minds from the Internalizations of the hierarchy of White system, that was the Message of Malcolm X and others like Black Panthers, Puerto Rican–Young Lords, Students for Democratic Justice, so forth.

We forget that the Civil Rights and decolonization of the oppressed ‘minds’ and the rise of Consciousness did NOT just happen in an isolated bubble of MLK and Freedom Marchers, oh no,

it took a Mass movement that included separatism, action, strikes and sit ins,

hell, we can’t even get Women to Strike as a Solidarity Sisterhood, against Domestic Violence in the Church–this is 2010 people,

there IS no solidarity for one, and there will Never be, as long as their is continued Compromise for the Sake of ‘Unity’.

And the Benevolent Masta sister, ain’t gonna set us free,

And not Think that Colonization of or minds is Still not reinforcing the Strongholds that so keep women BOUND IN CHAINS.

In solidarity,

Jane

Comment by Deborah

February 6, 2010 @ 12:01 pm

For the record, the pastoral couple I was mentioning are both over 50 and not the least bit nipped and tucked. It is more along the lines of what bookslinger said. Since society has elevated looks so, if you don’t emphasize them, it is often assumed that you aren’t happy with each other still. And if you do, it is often taken as shorthand for overall happiness. Thankfully, looks are not the only thing mentioned. And one of the other pastor’s wives at that church spent years working w/ women on the streets of India….

I agree, nonethless, Jane, w/ having seen a lot of what you state. Not hula dancers though–oh, no!!!! I have also, thank God, seen some much better things too… or at least better things in the mix. I think sometimes our particular experiences come to bring signifiers to any like words or whatever. And I don’t think it is that simple….

Liz, I relate to what you say about discomfort w/ that sort of praise. One of the reasons I’ve come to appreciate it to a degree is simply b/c I did not receive it growing up (from family) at all, and having received healing of my “image” from God, it speaks to good things for me if it comes from the right lips in the right manner.

My 2.

Comment by Ms. Jack Meyers

February 6, 2010 @ 12:13 pm

Dave Warnock of 42 has chimed in with a great example that perfectly illustrates my point.

Bookslinger, even if it’s a stigma in our society for men to not mention how attractive their wives are, my question is: is that the way things are supposed to be? And if not, how do we fix it? If we have to bite the bullet for a while and let people think we aren’t physically attracted to our spouses so that we can break the habit, I’m okay with that.

To me, it’s a given that two spouses almost certainly find each other attractive, and I hardly need them to say so.

Comment by Deborah

February 6, 2010 @ 12:48 pm

I really like that blog by Dave, thanks!

To me it is NOT a given that spouses find each other attractive. I’ve seen many couples tire very quickly or men who were initially smitten start nagging over every little sag. To me it can be good for beauty to be affirmed, and maybe it is precisely b/c I have seen so much of these sort of lifeless ‘we put up w/ each other’, or ‘I must constantly strive to be more sexy for him b/c I am never good enough’ marriages. But I simultaneously agree that the ratio and manner is out of whack and can unwittingly send bad messages.

I was reminded while reading Dave’s blog of another ministry couple I’ve been around some. He loves to say that He got one of God’s queens and will make some sort of allusion to looks but jump right into how she grew up on a large cattle ranch and knows her authority, knows how to manage things, and so on. You get the whole picture at once and quickly–of a remarkably capable wife but also one whose beauty he has been smitten with for decades. I relate to what he says there more than I do to the former ministry couple described and would think it a better example, as I don’t think the way he comes off puts primary emphasis at all on a woman’s looks but on her strengths w/ looks as the icing.

Comment by Jane

February 6, 2010 @ 1:05 pm

“To me it is NOT a given that spouses find each other attractive. I’ve seen many couples tire very quickly or men who were initially smitten start nagging over every little sag. To me it can be good for beauty to be affirmed,”

And AGain you just proved my point,

to be Affirmed rather than being Measured by every little sag.

a.k.a. from Visuals, Fantasy and Standards for Male Sexual Desire set by western culture much of which could be described as pornographic.

Comment by Deborah

February 6, 2010 @ 1:08 pm

Jane, I’m not saying it is a good thing to get cat calls or something, but just like any other area in which we struggle with our esteem, sometimes others *help* minister the truth of how God–not society’s mirrors–see us. Ones who aren’t obsessed with society’s standards but who can honestly see something different and speak it.

Comment by Deborah

February 6, 2010 @ 1:17 pm

…Which reminds me of having on several occasions had powerful ministry from women and men who were speaking about inner beauty primarily but alongside the other. And it actually particularly spoke to me as an artist and a lover of art. I can understand how it might be upsetting if one’s only associations are objectification and porn. What I speak of is more holistic and not a matter of being dragged back to society’s standards. I don’t think it helps to negate this whole realm entirely–whether the aesthetics of art or the complex thoughts we have about ourselves as bodied beings. One of my favorite gems IS a woman like the one you describe–a morbidly obese powerful intercessor and professional counselor who delights in being God’s beauty… holistically! The Song of Songs which I take as having layers of meanings, is full of precise affirmations of looks, but all of these affirmations have (imo) very specific metaphorical meanings as to the inner attributes and works of the bride and bridegroom.

I sort of feel like when we over-correct this issue in the church we risk falling into gnosticism. The affirmations inner and outer can, I believe, be wonderfully intertwined.

Comment by Jane

February 6, 2010 @ 1:42 pm

Hear you Deborah but those Same arguments referring to

‘aesthetics of art’

LOL, are used Every single Day in the pro-porn and pro-prostitution movements with the whole Holistic Goddess Approach,

and lets not forget, the aesthetics of art has Always been male defined and women as ‘object’, sexual, in the aesthetic,

so to Use that as a reference point won’t wash. And like the women as ‘aesthetic’ logic, the comeback has Always been that those women who defy and who Question the Aesthetic, the objectification of the female as the Object, the Other, as being

extremists or Gnostic or haters of the female form, etc. And sadly, this logic has Worked, in media, in ART, and in Religion and Culture.

We are still referring to Image, as Defined by Whom? IF we are going to refer to art, [and do we really want to go there, lol, because the Feminist research/analysis, including Female Professional Artists who Buck the system of male defined Aesthetics, for years will blow the whole patriarchal definition of 'aesthetics' out the water]

then we again, are simply referencing the culture of Male dominated Expressionism, [and elites] and not realism. IT is simply the old adage,

porn IS art argument.

See the Similarity?

Jane

Comment by Ms. Jack Meyers

February 6, 2010 @ 1:43 pm

Deborah, what I should have said is that it’s a given to me that a loving couple finds each other attractive. And as I said in the OP, I don’t have a problem with occasional compliments on beauty. I think it’s especially appropriate if, say, all you know of someone is what they look like.

It’s when women are chiefly described in terms of their beauty that my “paternalism” alarms go off.

Comment by Jane

February 6, 2010 @ 1:51 pm

OK if we are going to use Aesthetic as justifiable base,

bring it.

The fruit of the tree of knowledge, good and evil,

it Looked good, it Tasted good, it would make one wise,

what was the First?

The Aesthetic–Genesis 3: And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food, and that IT WAS PLEASANT TO THE EYES –it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

and WHAT happened Immediately after Adam ate–

they SAW that they were Naked…

so, justifications based on Aesthetics,

got a Problem there…best we dig a bit deeper

Jane

Comment by Jane

February 6, 2010 @ 1:52 pm

Today– WOMAN = FRUIT OF TREE,

with the whole AESTHETIC,

women perpetuate that, well, don’t whine when eaten and consumed.

Kind of how it is,
Jane

Comment by Deborah

February 6, 2010 @ 2:05 pm

Ms. Meyers–Yes, I did not think you were entirely against it. Thanks for clarifying :).

Jane–I think we are pretty much talking past each other and talking about very different things. I am a lover of beauty, period. I adore the doe that visits my yard on a regular basis. I do not lust after her :). I love mountains and photography. I love to watch modern dance and some ballet. I can get lost in art galleries. I enjoy feeling that my inner and even my outer man may bear some slight resemblances to the beauty and strength of creation that I appreciate.

Imo, to just discard all notions of beauty and its validity as a good creation is to give the enemy the monopolization of beauty and its definition. One of the ministries I know that most celebrates the Song of Songs and its many layered meanings is currently seeing an unusual number of prostitutes and porn stars come to them to get saved and rehabilitated in how God sees them and to start sorting out all those self-concepts. And as I listen to the testimonies, they are crying as they describe Jesus coming to them in various revelations and sharing about their true beauty inside and out.

There are the bad apples, and then there are the good apples….

Comment by Liz

February 6, 2010 @ 5:48 pm

What I would like to suggest is that we allow God to renew our minds/hearts and therefore what we speak (out of the heart, the mouth speaks)

What this post is about is the prevalence of people talking about women in terms of their physical appearance and how demeaning, annoying that can be. Compliments of any kind which are given sincerely and with no other motive are always enjoyed by either gender and we should practise saying things to each other which build up and not tear down.

Ever since the first couple sinned, relationships between women and men have been damaged and what we see in the world is the result of centuries of independance from God – exactly what was predicted by God after the first sin.

However….we have another way to live and can teach and demonstrate that by our lives. Of course, we have to deal with people in all states – from totally decadent to being sanctified and God gives us the grace to cope.

Looking at each other as made in God’s image and wanting to esteem each other goes a long way to watching how we speak and that includes what we say about each other’s appearance as well as accomplishments.

It is sadly true that the physical appearance of women within western churches is often over-emphasised (and it is damaging and disturbing) but we each can make a difference in the way we talk, respond etc. Those in leadership positions can be more assertive and influential to a larger number of people and have the greater responsibility.

Comment by Jane

February 6, 2010 @ 6:29 pm

And Again, I still don’t think we are looking at this in the Full reality,

If we continue to perpetuate the ‘its ok for Pastors and male leaders’ to set a type of beauty standard [by measuring or public referring to that in regards to wives/women YET at same time, diminishing and even more so, SILENCE to the many other contributions women make OUTSIDE the Bedroom and Kitchen--we are then setting up and perpetuating a Culture standard that is yes, World based [and misogynist at that, based on the 'images and fantasies' of male desire--

NOT only that, but lets look a bit Deeper into this whole 'I like beauty Aesthetics shall we', because lets NOT FORGET,

AESTHETICS IS DEFINED BY 'WHITE' DEFINITION OF BEAUTY,

don't believe me, TAKE this argument to the forums to Women of Color, and tell them, the Aesthetics is NOT Euro-Male Centric defined.

Who defines what Beauty is? Whites, that's who, white construct, SO, if we are going to in any form Perpetuate or support, THEN lets be honest, we are Perpetuating Darwinism.

Survival of the fittest, and the who fits into the Aesthetics.

And Evidence of this is GLARING, from Asian women having their Legs sawed in half [China-FACT] and stretched in Extreme torture/pain for weeks in hospitals to be Tall like Western women to having their eyes operated on to rid of the slanted eyes…

from Black women having their skin lightened with toxins and chemicals, to Brown women having shaved off facial hair, to Women not only shaving their pubic region [to look like those six year old girl fantasies in PORN] but also having their Labias cut off and vagina’s sewed up [and that Includes WHY we have Episiotomies (sic) after Childbirth, NOT a necessity mind you, but to Fit the 'defines' of male sexual desires for virgins, FACT],

from girls starving themselves, Bulimia and Anorexia to models who are so thin that even the Model world-Fashion industry is up in arms over this right as we speak–

from job discrimination [fact] based on Lookism and Ageism [a HUGE one and one that effects Women] to that make up,

you put on that has most likely, been tested on Animals that requires horrid Torture.

Still want to Hold up Beauty [in even the subtle Innocent remarks] as THE aesthetics Standard that women hear and Measure themselves by, in positive OR negative?

Then do so, but know this, when we Do, we are aiding in the Misery of not just the souls of women but in the destruction of the planet [cotton and silk pillaging for fabrics/toxic dyes, made and harvested by Child Slaves so WE can be Beautiful] to the destruction of Animals via testing for products so WE can be Beautiful to hundreds of women of color who Torture themselves [and white women, breast implants to botox--we don't KNOW the impact THAT will have years later, injecting Botulism so close to the Brain] and then,

we Think, we will influence women through our Imperialist Culture eyes in Africa and Middle East to reject FGMs?????

This is So much more, than the innocent compliment to a woman here and there, and we ALL KNOW IT.

In solidarity,

Jane

Comment by Jane

February 6, 2010 @ 7:00 pm

“Those in leadership positions can be more assertive and influential to a larger number of people and have the greater responsibility.’

Actually, on this, NO, WOMEN, we have the Greatest responsibility, its NOT the leaders who are

paying for clothes, heels [that are not normal or healthy] or for make up tested on animals or for hair products that are bad for environment or that are shopping each new sale for that one dress that will make us gloriously beautiful or who are having botox or collegen injections or breast implants

or who are measuring also each other based on those standards and then some, and telling other women to lose that weight to be Godly or to walk and talk a certain way and so forth,

or buying the fashion mags and into the whole fashion beauty myth.

IT isn’t those male leaders who are the mass Consumers of such, oh no, its us Women.

DO we shun beauty, NO, and I’m not advocating that, BUT I am saying, this is the ONE ISSUE, that WE AS WOMEN, ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR, in the EXAMPLE WE SET,

ARE we responsible for our Sisters? I think so, I also think, that with Freedom, comes responsibility, WE set the Standard there, BY our either, need and Want for MALE APPROVAL, OR FOR

GOD’S APPROVAL.

And that, is the decision, every woman must make. But we need to know, That those decisions, IF for male approval, cost not only our Own self respect, they assist in the harm and damage to other Women [our neighbor], to animals and to our planet.

It boils down to this, do we Care more, for our Sisters and the world around us, or for the Worship, of Men?

And last I recall, wasn’t beauty, something Lucifer was hung up on? Something to ponder on,

this I believe, truly is, more where we as Women, have done more, to Perpetuate patriarchy and our OWN subjugation for just that, Male Approval. And that really, is what we need to dig and find out Why, and then, work to deal with those internalizations. Other wise,

anything else we do, for emancipation from Male Rule, is FUTILE.

Solidarity,

Jane

Comment by Deborah

February 6, 2010 @ 8:29 pm

Liz, great comments. This, in fact, is sort of what I was trying to get at, “Compliments of any kind which are given sincerely and with no other motive are always enjoyed by either gender and we should practise saying things to each other which build up and not tear down.”

Jane, I appreciate your comments. I can’t deny that when it comes to the aesthetics of women, I have absorbed a fair amount of cultural info. But once again, I am not speaking primarily out of the aesthetics you speak of but one of recognizing a broader beauty palette and inner beauty as paramount. When I previously talked about being ministered to re: aesthetics, I LITERALLY meant the arts. I’ve had a lot of people “see” “beauty” as in the beauty of the arts on my spirit and speak it over me (adding for good measure that I am physically beautiful, but that is not what they are “seeing” or focused upon). Some of these folks did not know me or my love for the arts at all.

Anyhow, I think I appreciate it more when a leader throws in a hearfelt beauty compliment to a wife who does not fit the beauty norms or who is getting along in years, as I believe in such cases it may help tear down the idea that you have to look like the supermodel to be adored by a (presumably) godly man. And that is the case with some of these leaders. Moreover, in the particular cases I have in mind, the women are assistant or co- pastors to their husbands and nearly egalitarian in function (would that they were fully egal!). So there women *aren’t* seeing a whole lot of the kitchen. They are travelling, planning, organizing, counseling….

If I were looking at the sort of experience you describe wherein the compliment is primarily demeaning and is reinforcing her limited role, I would also have an adverse reaction. Sometimes even when I know that the pastor or leader’s heart is moving in the direction of the full release of women in ministry, I can still react negatively for the precise reason that too much beauty emphasis in our culture can perpetuate problems with image and with the notion that this is most important. I would also L-O-V-E to see more of these leaders not confine their praise of wives’ ministry abilities primarily to intercession, worship, and compassion acts (which have long been more acceptable arenas for women) but also to preaching, administration, and teaching (but this is happening more and more). Indeed, the wife who grew up on a cattle ranch that I mentioned is one amazing teacher.

I hope that helps bridge the gap.

Comment by Liz

February 6, 2010 @ 10:43 pm

Even when we see and even understand the whole ugly picture of how sin has distorted all that pertains to human sexuality we still believe that the only lasting change will be through people getting back to a right relationship with God and allowing his Spirit to effect change in human hearts…..which takes time.

In the meantime, we work to alleviate the suffering sin is causing and there are many agencies and individuals who work to see a better world for women everywhere. Not all are called to be revolutionaries – some work from the inside out, like leaven – others work in education, both secular and Christian to teach new and better ways of honouring women.

The link included in Jack’s comment (90763) contains much that is encouraging even while reporting on an unbiblical view of a woman’s place. it is a reminder that there are so many who are working for the full freedom and equality for all people regardless of gender, race etc. Every article like this gives me hope!

Comment by Trevor

February 7, 2010 @ 8:40 am

There’s an absence of male voices here at the moment. I guess that some are looking in but have not felt the freedom to comment, for whatever reason.

I try to keep up with all of the comments but Liz is far more adept at putting things into words that take me ages to say (and to two finger type I might add).

Needless to say I am in total agreement with everything that she has said here.

We talk about the posts and comments as we get on with doing other things and so very often what Liz puts up is something that we have attempted to flesh out in our discussions. She can think on her feet far better than I.

The one thing that I would strongly advocate for is that while we agree that human fallenness and sin is primarily responsible for all of the abuses of which Jane speaks, the Christian response, for men and women, is to love our enemies. Revolution might be the world’s answer to solving such critical, human issues but it is not necessarily the Christian way.

That is not to say that, as Christians, we do not acknowledge that countless millions of people are disempowered and brutalized. We recognize that they need a voice and strong advocates to champion their cause, raising the world’s consciousness of their plight. As Christians we are called to stand for mercy and justice, to serve to alleviate the suffering of our fellow human beings who are also image bearers of God.

It is said of Jesus, on a number of occasions in the Gospel accounts, that He was overcome with compassion, seeing the masses as sheep without a shepherd. He is that Shepherd and we best serve others by allowing Him to use us as His hands and feet in ministering love and compassion to a hurting world.

It may only appear at times to be a mustard seed of activity that we are engaged in but by the grace and mercy of God this little effort is multiplied around the world, as history bears out. Christians have so often been at the forefront of every humanitarian endeavour. Let us rejoice and celebrate where they are truly standing for Jesus rather than be overwhelmed by the issues.

It’s like the oft told story of the little boy walking along the beach tossing stranded starfish back into the ocean. An older person, taken with the numbers of marooned starfish, approached the boy and spoke to him of the futility of the exercise. “How can it possibly make a difference?” he asked.
As quick as a flash the boy responded, as he threw another starfish toward the ocean, “It sure makes a difference to that one!”

Comment by TL

February 7, 2010 @ 10:29 am

” “I noticed that the women were invariably introduced with a reference to their beauty,”

That is one thing among several that bothers me about the book, Wild at Heart. The women are continually referred to as the “beauties” who wait on the sidelines for the valiant men to rescue them. The impression is that the men live life while the women just sit and look beautiful. blech! Although it did have a few points of merit for the men in noting their need for diversion and excitement in their lives.

As for the hula dancers, it’s all in perspective. Here in Hawaii our dancers don’t just ‘hula’ as in wiggle their okoles, and they are not half naked. We have both male and female dancers and they tell a story with their hands and music. Words are spoken by a chanter. In Hawaii this is an acceptable and even sacred form of worship. It would be out of place on the mainland.

Comment by Lin

February 7, 2010 @ 10:32 am

It is strange that my 20 years in the comp world I heard this descriptor all the time for wives. In the 4 years I have been in the egal world, I hardly ever hear it about wives. I usually hear things like smart, devoted to Christ, etc.

In the comp world, men want their wives devoted to them. It is a trophy to them that their wives are attractive because they believe the woman was created to serve the man. Her role, everything she is, is to be for him and the family.

But this does bring complications. A few years back, Mark Driscoll wrote a scathing rebuke to pastors wives who let themselves go physically. He was blaming them for pastors straying. This was in response to Ted Haggard’s scandal. (which makes no sense). He had to take it down the outcry was so loud because he was scathing toward women.

I could not but feel sorry for his wife. What if she gets Lupus and has to take steroids? What if she has to have both breasts removed? An accident that could disfigure her face? Would he be repulsed and be tempted to stray if she is not physically attractive to him anymore?

His diatribe only showed how shallow so many are who happen to be in the pulpits. But the comp world has brought this on themselves with their roles and rules. Women are objects to serve men.

My goal is not to so much rebuke comp men for being so shallow but to encourage women that they are to seek first the Kingdom…not their husbands. Only then can they have truly godly marriages.

Comment by Jane

February 7, 2010 @ 1:27 pm

Revolution! Why is it, the call to Change, is always referred to as Violent Revolution, in the Burke way? In other words, to Radically CHANGE LIFESTYLE is to always be deemed as wrong, why we should always not offend the STATUS QUO, [and has always been used to urge people to go along with, to not ruffle feathers or rock the boat too much--but in all searching, HOW much of this, is truly, to preserve one's own tail? To be affirmed by men, more than by God? A question we all have to ask ourselves time to time.

whisper silently yet with COMPROMISE. Always the compromises, and the Thing ABOUT COMPROMISE, is eventually the ones who have NO FEAR OF GOD -- misery will drive them, and THEY will, resort to, Yes, VIOLENCE.

We always hear about forgiveness and kindness and soft whispers, AGREED, we ARE to do those things, to work for change in those small ways, but OH how we so forget, that Jesus

did NOT tip toe into the Temple and whisper to the money changers and say, uh, please change, please simply allow a corner here, in the House of God, for real prayer, for real sanctification to God, please.

NO, Jesus OVERTHREW THE MONEY TABLES AND THE DENS OF THIEVES, MY HOUSE WILL BE THE HOUSE OF PRAYER GOD SAYS.

I mention the Decolonization of minds, the changing of our [women] desire for the Affirmation of Males, there are Numerous scriptures that say the same, and it then becomes, revolution?!

Yes, I am CALLING for a Revolution among women, a Revolution of ACTION and not just talking around or about the issues, but a Change in our Life that requires yes, SACRIFICE. For other women, because that IS what LOVE does.

To Forsake the rudiments of the world, the compliments of MEN, to not bend under the LIE of compromise the ‘oh we include inner beauty now and then’ when we know, that is NOT the case, across the board.

A Revolution where Godly Women show forth Good Works, not beauty. Where Godly Women are not afraid to stand and be Different, from the ’standards’ of the world, of culture Including the assimilation of culture in the church. Yes it IS revolution, it IS radical, and it IS, a revolution of Love.

But, I suppose that the Delilah spirit has taken hold of too many women, sad to say, and the eyes of Sampson forget, that God is the strength, not beauty and not power.

You say we are to talk and teach, Agreed, but What better way to teach, than by Example, by NOT compromise and agreeing with the ’standards’ or playing with, simply because we Don’t want to come across as too Revolutionary or Too radical, oh no, no John the Baptist calls here, locust and honey, why People would think we are Crazy, right? No setting forth and working in our lives to be Different, to do more than just, oh we “know” about these things, but to Alter our Behaviors, even our Need for ’self esteem’ so that,

others may Live. May see…life.

God is Merciful, long in forbearance and kind, and Yes, we are to ALWAYS KNOW THIS AND BE PATIENT,

but Being Patient, is not the Same, as Compromise in this self deceptive way that is Really about, our inner desire to be affirmed, because Beauty is Power, and who wants to be sackcloth and ashes,
right?

I will leave this, all I wrote in God’s hands, He knows my heart, as well as the struggles, what I see and what you see and so forth,

but for Me, personally, I lived for so many years, desiring to be affirmed, and rejected in churches for NOT fitting the beauty ideal, for so many years I deep inside my heart hated God for not making me a Rachel but a Leah instead and no where was I reminded of this so much, AS I WAS, AMONG GOD’S PEOPLE, THE CHURCHES. In the Christian culture.

And I know I am not alone, when younger, when a man would tell me I was attractive, in any body part way, I would succumb. I know the Damage, that these beliefs cause, and God does too.

Years later I would see even further the Damage they cause not just a ‘few women’ but millions, and how many believe, if they aren’t what is aesthetic, they are, truly Weeds,

and even, Spiritual Weeds.

You become what you THINK and BELIEVE you are, but God is more powerful, than the LIES of men and women. His Grace reached me but the Damage, would take Years to undo…

I will NOT succumb to the beauty culture anymore or the gender culture or any of the other Herod lies, I will NOT dance,

the dance of Salome, Daughter of Herodias – nor will I be a supporter of other Dancers and Culture of such,

and yes, I suppose, THAT would be, Revolutionary.

But I believe, it is More than revolutionary, but that it is truly Mercy, in Action, and not just word,

because Mercy, Love, does NOT rejoice in iniquity, nor does it, take part in it, or join with, just to not appear too radical. To defy culture norms, etc., to break out of constructs,

its one thing to ’speak’ about the harms, its quite another, to make a Decision, to LIVE CONTRARY, TO THE CULTURE THAT IS ALL ABOUT PERPETUATING THE HARMS.

And yes, that Is

revolution.

In love, solidarity,

Jane

Comment by Bookslinger

February 7, 2010 @ 1:43 pm

Jane, your writing reveals a lot of pain; the kind of pain from spiritual wounds that haven’t healed yet. I hope you seek counseling regarding whatever trauma that caused those wounds, and that you continue to seek the spiritual healing that comes only from The Great Healer.
God bless you sister.

Comment by Jane

February 7, 2010 @ 3:14 pm

It isn’t about pain Bookslinger,

we all have pain. For me, its about separating myself from the culture that I know firsthand to be poison,

and that, yes, is the culture of the Religion [not the Faith mind you or the Bible or Jesus but Religion] of Christianity in the West,

that I see is tied up with the World, not separate from. This does NOT come from looking and judging, but from how I was and am treated in the churches, from numerous Christians

when I was homeless [a Huge one], pregnant [and single], poor [still am and I do see those prejudices and they are GLARING] and racism, which is another GLARING one…

the talk, don’t cut it, that is what I see, my husband, Jew, who is not a believer, sees anti-semitism and I didn’t until one day, going to church and they were wearing yellow stars for some function–I guess, they do not know what to Jews those stars represent, When I later mentioned it to a couple of people,

I got indifference and glaring apathy.

I see that a lot, I Don’t and still don’t see That level, of no Active compassion or indifference with many I know in the far left and left, activists,

the Saddest thing, is that when I was IN the socialist party, for those years, I was more loved and truly saw Genuine love, among comrades, then All the years of church together.

That does NOT mean, that I haven’t met true Christians, I have, but you know something, they don’t associate with the churches much and are women and a few couples [one that got burned doing mission work in Chile during Pinochet's regime] and well, the thing is,

I don’t care really about words spewed, I look at Actions. And not showmanship, type.

And I’m not angry about this, used to be years ago but not anymore, I’ve just come to ACCEPT IT and I just don’t go with the whole Culture anymore, that is all,

not that I hate them or anything like that, I just don’t agree with the culture nor want anything to do with it. I Do write here, Because I believe people need to see beyond the books and the words, maybe, maybe they’ll hear,

but, what I usually get, is the ‘oh you have so much pain go to a shrink’ etc.,

and, well, that kind of reaction doesn’t even surprise me. Not really, its typical,

but I see it from a place, many don’t see. But, you are right about one thing, How I spend my energy,

is it bearing fruit? Obviously not, not really–though it IS helping ME to see more and to get closer to God actually, who IS my Counselor btw,

and to be OK with, not conforming or going along with the Culture or Status quo, and that its OK, for me to work with those who believe and ACT upon working to relieve the afflicted,

who, yes, are mostly Pagan, Leftists, and Feminists. Anti-War and the like,

but they, have never shunned me or looked down or put me into a gender box [other than the ideologist extremists/centralist commies who funny, are though opposite in beliefs, remind me a lot of the Church and religious folk],

and well, I just like them, I like that they care and love and Identify, with others, without judging or with that whole religious tone. And they don’t just talk,

they ACT. Whether its feeding the poor or planting a community garden or working to educate people on fair trade or recycling or giving blankets to the homeless,

THAT, that is where I want to be. I just wished, it wasn’t this having to Choose cultures, being a Woman especially,

but I am finding, more and more, it is.

But that, is OK,

because, God has never abandoned me, and Jesus, is in people, you’d never expect…like the homeless Veteran in the city park sleeping on the bench,

Those people, I relate to, more. And, funny,

I feel safer, much safer with.

[though I do feel safe with Liz, Trevor and many here]

Jane

Comment by Jane

February 7, 2010 @ 3:19 pm

Uh, yea, never mind…LOL, seriously never mind,

I don’t do that whole four wives thing either. Thank you God for showing me though—funny how they always try to make a woman,

look crazy or hysterical, Gee, I SHOULD have known, typical ‘patriarchal’ slam to shut women up and to close the ears of other women from hearing

lol

Jane

Comment by Jane

February 7, 2010 @ 3:33 pm

Patriarchal in ‘constructs’ that is, maybe NOT intentional, maybe real concern, but that is just it, how far and deeply entrenched those prejudices are against those who buck the whole patriarchal culture, can be, it’s never a ‘legit’ complaint,

oh no, its always the ‘woman must be in pain’ and nothing really wrong with the culture of male supremacy and female subjugation.

And yes, the common slam, is the whole ‘get help’ or you’re hysterical and yada yada,

diverting the focus Away from the issues and putting the focus on the individual woman or on feminists, etc., whether by ignorance, internalized beliefs or outright warfare [to maintain white male privilege] or what have you,

but the psychology is the same, and it is, yes, the Culture of Patriarchy, and the price a woman pays, for yes,

defying that ‘culture’, in word or in life. Comes with the territory, and yes, sometimes people Do mean well,

so, thank you for the concern Bookslinger. But I have a counselor, the Holy Spirit, and He is enough, but again, thank you for your concern. IT was kind of you.

Jane

Comment by Liz

February 7, 2010 @ 5:35 pm

Lin & Jane – you have raised good points about informing/encouraging women rather than trying to change the patriarchal culture first. All opportunities need to be taken and this ‘battle’ will be won on several fronts.

It has long been a conviction of mine that we need to reach young women, even young girls and teach/demonstrate a better way to them. This patterning of female behaviours and expectancy begins in kindergarten (as does that of boys I might add) and the earlier girls can be exposed to equality the better.

It is hard though because even apart from the church culture, the family cultures so often go back several generations with patriarchal leanings. The media sends mixed messages – encouraging education and free thinking among women and at the same time portraying women as empty-headed and only interested in getting a man. It is complex! Sometimes a poignant one-liner can catch someone’s attention and make them think. Unless we’re in a position of ‘power’ (ie a public speaker or changer of policies) we trust God that these little inroads will all be part of changing the mindset (bit like the starfish)

So..how do we teach little girls and young women that they have been created by God for something special, whether they marry or not, whether they are deemed beautiful or not. There are wonderful stories of parents who did just that and the women who grew to be outstanding preachers and missionaries.

Comment by Liz

February 7, 2010 @ 5:40 pm

I wrote this post back in 2006 and I think it still applies.

It is very evident that the cultural mindset over such a long time is deeper than many first imagined and so it is no wonder than it keeps resurfacing in the most unlikely places. It occurs to me that something that has taken hundreds of years to become entrenched will not go away just by careful exegesis and teaching. Attitudes will change in the same way they developed – very slowly and with repeated statements and demonstrated truth. We need to find ways of “speaking the truth in love” to those who have differing beliefs about gender issues and use opportunities as they occur to encourage a better way to speak and act in company with women and men.

For myself, I know that I often don’t take issue with things which are said for two reasons. Either it seems as though I am defending myself or I don’t want to spoil the great fellowship we have with friends by pointing out something they’ve said which perpetuates the sterotypes. Perhaps we need to move away from personal hurt and see it as a slight on the very character of God and then we may feel more freedom to confront people who unwittingly make distinction between women and men followers of Jesus. However we do it, it will probably be a long process which will bear fruit later. One example is a recent opportunity I have had to “Australianise” a series of parenting books which have been written from a complementarian perspective. While doing this I was able to change words such as “man’s nature” to “human nature” and sometimes include the word “parents” instead of the continual reference to “mum (read mom)” as though mothers are always the primary care-givers. I won’t be around to see what difference this will make to the thousands who read this material, but hopefully it will permeate their thinking and have a lasting result. Some of us will have to be content with “picking out the stones” to prepare the ground for the good seed of biblical truth to take root.

Comment by Deborah

February 7, 2010 @ 7:18 pm

I agree that much work needs to be done to transform girls’ perceptions and values, though usually I am limited to pulling out the little stones Liz mentions. Occasionally, I do get to slip an egal book in someone’s hands or some of my own egal writing :).

I agree that we need a different standard. At the same time, I don’t believe a beautyless world is at all the answer whether talking about the arts or the beauty we find in one another.

Just because physical attraction or beauty is the tip of an iceberg doesn’t mean it is not to be celebrated in right proportion as ONE of God’s goods–just that the iceberg beneath must not be ignored! Don’t we actually marvel at icebergs in many ways simply b/c we know how great they are beneath the surface, what a formidable force of nature they present? I am mesmerized by the blue streaks and the shapes in part b/c I am often thinking of all that lies beneath the surface. And for some men, this is the beauty they find in their wives and all that is on their heart when they praise the surface. We DO do well to remind them to ennumerate what is below and often, but I don’t think we need to prohibit the former. For other men, unfortunately, they are trying to steer their ships clear of a real encounter with that solid mass beneath that would sink their ego but give them a place to rest in her strengths once they are recognized and received.

Jane, if I may, you have mentioned on this forum that you are going through a major healing process. I don’t know if bookslinger saw those posts or not. Although my words have been off the cuff and all over the place–therefore, perhaps, unclear–comments like “oh we include inner beauty now and then” *appear* like a deliberate misstatement of what I have said OR an indication that you have been severely triggered by something and so are still reading my words that way despite a few attempts to clarify. Many of us here came to egal beliefs, I think, by way of some difficult circumstances and know something about being “triggered.” Bookslinger’s comments appear to me to portray simple compassion and, quite possibly, empathy with the territory you are walking through. I don’t think any egals here are viewing you as a silly woman.

On the other hand, some of your responses come across as attacks that assume the very worst of both others and their ideas on account of triggers. (And this may be precisely why bookslinger has made the comment he has.)

Matthew 12:35 says that a good person brings up good out of the good stored up in him, while an evil person evil. I might make an addendum–that those who have been subjected to great evils may see great evil even in the good. Just a thought. Grace and peace, Jane.

Comment by Sonnet

February 7, 2010 @ 8:10 pm

Is beauty fleeting or vain??

Some Bible versions translate Prov. 31:30 as “beauty is fleeting / passing” (NIV, TNIV, NKJV)
others translate it as “beauty is vain” (NASB, KJV, ESV, 21st CKJV, YLT)

“Fleeting” and “vain” do not appear to be synonyms for each other.
Webster’s New World Dictionary defines these words as:

Vain = having no real value; worthless; without effect; futile; having an excessively high regard for one’s self, looks; conceited

Fleeting = passing swiftly

The only connection I can see between the two choices is that physical beauty lacks real value because it is so temporary. Any linguists out there who know which translation choice is the most accurate?

Either way, all of the translations seem to allude to the shallowness of outward beauty.

Comment by Trevor

February 7, 2010 @ 8:22 pm

I think that I need to make the comment Jane that when I caution that we tread more softly I am not suggesting that we do not allow our lives in Christ to be revolutionised. By its very nature the Good News of Jesus transforms us from the inside out and that should be abundantly evident. The problem is that the church, by and large, has developed its own culture and churched people can stop short of allowing the Holy Spirit to radically change their thinking and actions. It is voices like yours that cause us to do a double take and question whether we have become comfortable and complacent in how we view things.

Yes, Jesus did come down hard on the money changers as did John the Baptist when addressing the religious elite. We too need to make that distinction. By all means give the religious establishment a serve but be careful not to condemn outright all believers per se, because many of us are struggling faithfully to bring about change in the areas where we feel a personal responsibility. That is why I suggest that we rejoice and celebrate where it is evident that good things are happening. Seek those things out and offer the doers encouragement.

Many years ago Liz and I worked for the organisation, ‘Voice of the Martyrs’ and I remember clearly that in our youthful zeal that was all that we could talk about. One of the more senior and experienced members of the team offered us some very wise advice. He said that if we focussed totally on this aspect of the Christian life it would consume us and eat us out causing us to be totally negative and disillusioned. We took his counsel and thankfully it did preserve us from being so overwhelmed with the injustice and need that we could never see anything positive about what others were doing in and for the Kingdom.

Comment by Sonnet

February 7, 2010 @ 8:26 pm

Somewhere, long ago, I heard someone describe our outward looks as merely being the frame for a picture. The real artwork is what is contained within the frame.

Whether we’re male or female, when we are filled with God’s presence, the Holy Spirit, think of the amazing masterpiece being crafted and transformed. That is something to be praised!

Comment by Liz

February 7, 2010 @ 8:33 pm

From my understanding, vain is often used to suggest ‘passing’ or ‘of little value, such as in Ecclesiastes when the writer says many things are vain – meaning transitory.

I often use the word vain when describing doing cryptic crosswords or sudoku because they get done and then thrown out! However, they do have the useful purpose of keeping the brain stimulated as well as being relaxing (for some)

Words get in the way sometimes

Comment by ls

February 7, 2010 @ 10:25 pm

I think Francis Schaeffer wrote “If you don’t deal with superficiality you will always need variety”. It’s a quote I’ve remembered, I think it is from his book “True Spirituality”.

Another quote from my journey: “It’s not an overvalue of beauty as much as it is an undervalue of other things”….sad that that undervalue is so prevalent.

It is a pleasure to have volunteered to help this weekend with a teen women’s event called “Ro…tic”, taking the ‘man’ out of romance, letting God romance them first instead of so much focus on finding a boyfriend.

I am reminded often of the verse “rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn” I think this is helpful to me for reshaping the way I process navigating this fallen world, instead of trying to rework or fix it all.

ls

Comment by Liz

February 7, 2010 @ 10:56 pm

The weekend event sounds wonderful!

Comment by Jane

February 8, 2010 @ 1:45 am

Analysis, The Beauty Myth,

http://www.homestar.org/bryannan/wolf.html

it isn’t just the ‘media’ women have to worry about…that is obvious.

Jane

Comment by Amanda B

February 8, 2010 @ 2:21 am

I really appreciate the tone of this article. I think it’s very easy to vacillate between two extremes–that of idolizing beauty as some sort of validating part of womanhood, versus chafing at every compliment as if it were some sort of dig at one’s personhood. It can be an especially difficult minefield to navigate given our secular society’s blatant objectification of women’s bodies.

The key really does lie in the “What else?” Beauty–and by that, I mean the real thing, not the Hollywood tall, thin, white, toned, magazine-ready version–beauty is a good thing. It’s good for men to appreciate it in their wives, and it’s good for women to enjoy their husband’s appreciation. But beauty is not even close to being the primary thing that describes a woman as a person, and it most certainly isn’t the only thing.

Thank you for bringing a voice of balance and reason to the subject. :)

Comment by Trevor

February 8, 2010 @ 3:34 am

Wow, Laura provides quite an insightful read Jane. (comment 90800 – link)

You are so right, it isn’t just the ‘media’ we have to worry about. It’s corporate greed latching on to that which is marketable. We need God to change our way of viewing ourselves so that we no longer subscribe to being consumer junkies of the accepted male/female sexual stereotypes.

Only a Romans 12:1,2 type mind renewal can help prevent us from being ’squeezed’ in the world’s mould of what it means to be a ‘perfect’ man or woman.

Comment by Jane

February 8, 2010 @ 10:30 am

“It’s corporate greed latching on to that which is marketable”

uh huh now Take that a bit further, and you’ll see it.

HOW, is corporate greed able to Latch on to what is marketable, and WHAT is it, that makes the ‘marketable’ able to Influence people, Especially WOMEN, the number one CONSUMER, of beauty and household products [which rely on the Torture of Animals, fact, the Slavery and Blood shed/rapes of thousands of women and children, i.e. diamond mining and jewel mining/and slavery and WAR as a result, Fashion industry which is All about cotton slavery/deaths of thousands of the worlds poor, and Sweatshop industry which is hugely based on Trafficking including Christian women from N Korea sold as slaves to China, etc],

so How is it then, that there is a VOID in Humans, Women, that begs, to fulfill a Assumed NEED, that Markets can play INTO?

See you have to see how Marketing works, they don’t just operate in a vacuum, and Set up a standard, they PLAY ON ROLES AND STANDARDS ALREADY SET,
why its called SUPPLY AND ‘D.E.M.A.N.D.’

so, WHERE does the D.E.M.A.N.D. come from?

Referring to beauty here, and household products [many highly toxic/detrimental to environment/dependent on brutal slavery in underdeveloped nations]

What, Apart from Marketing-Media, is the Biggest INFLUENCE on creating that D.E.M.A.N.D. in WOMEN?

Sowing what we Reap–MULTIPLY,

a little leaven leavens the Whole Lump,

ever notice, God never anywhere in Bible, say to Divide, because HE is the Divider–but whatever is MULTIPLIED,

will multiply and multiply and the death will spread and Especially–the death of women, GLOBALLY.

Multiply Any facet of Patri-Constructs, you will get the end results,

death to female, death to LIFE, death to the planet, death to animals.

God is the divisor, Question is,

do we become a Multiplier, or part of the Divisor?

Jane

Comment by Jane

February 8, 2010 @ 11:04 am

time for some education

images don’t lie [and just Think how much of This money, could pay for food and medical and help for the most oppressed/poor of the world--Women and Children esp in underdeveloped nations where many slave/DIE for diamonds, cotton, minerals etc, when you Look at those equations, can't NOT look deeper into these constructs and Why the D.E.M.A.N.D. for them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd26oOMyseA

laser surgeries [for beauty] for teens/young as 12

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bKSV70FxqA

[yep, the Pedophile culture at work full speed, all for conforming to beauty constructs]Listen…it Might Surprise you HOW we are DESTROYING THE SOULS OF CHILDREN/GIRLS

I’ll let you all absorb that one for a while, there is a lot more,

yea, here here to Aesthetics, Right?

Love,

Jane

Comment by Scott

February 8, 2010 @ 11:09 am

I think it’s a bit presumptious to assume that pastors and church folk are only speaking of exterior, physical aesthetics when reffering to the beauty of their wives, particulary because the Bible doesn’t speak of beauty as entirely (or even most importantly) as being an outward attribute.

“Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Do not let your adorning be external — the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear — but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.” 1 Peter 3:1-6

Of all people, we should expect pastors to understand beauty in this way. Real beauty is not as it is used in Proverbs 31:30 to describe certain physical attributes, but as it is used here in 1 Peter 3 to encompass all of those qualities lifted up throughout Proverbs 31.

Comment by Jane

February 8, 2010 @ 11:25 am

“I think it’s a bit presumptious to assume that pastors and church folk are only speaking of exterior, physical aesthetics when reffering to the beauty of their wives, particulary because the Bible doesn’t speak of beauty as entirely (or even most importantly) as being an outward attribute”

what the Messages of the Church [America] is saying, what the World is hearing,

http://blog.beliefnet.com/stuffchristianculturelikes/2009/01/59-saying-that-their-spouse-is-hot.html

I did the google searches, you Might be a little surprised there as well, what comes up

http://www.google.com/search?q=hot+christian+wife&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

the shocker was the yahoo group for Christian ‘virgins’ parading around in lingerie for husbands,

like, Seriously, doesn’t Anyone see what is WRONG with this Christian-PORN model culture?

When do we name Jesus “Dagon”, for crying out loud to fit in too? And THIS isn’t the Fundies folks, this is in the MAINSTREAM,

I say, oh yea, WE got some SERIOUS issues.

Jane

Comment by Deborah

February 8, 2010 @ 12:20 pm

I thought I’d throw out there that I think we need to be careful not to make assumptions about women based on the degree of attention they give to style. I’ve never gotten a manicure or pedicure, as I’m more of a nature chick. But that doesn’t necessarily mean I’d never start–particularly as certain work environments and their expected dress might welcome a bit more polish. And it can feel nice for me to “polish” more; it’s not like I wholly lack that side of style.

I don’t relate to a lot of the spiffy looks of women, but I’ve colored them one-dimensional and prejudiced myself against them when I assume they are all vain and are all so rooted in society’s concepts that they are not resisting these in any way. And after all, despite the Scripture’s emphasis (thank you, Scott) on the many types of beauty and (thank you, Sonnet) on the fleeting/vain nature of beauty, God “wastes” a whole lot of words on dress and jewelry and artistry and sometimes personal appearances of Bible characters. Some of these are negative, as with Israel whoring after lovers who will give her these things, but many are positive and even initiated by Him: whether the priests’ garb and the decor of temples and palaces, the looks of David, Joseph, Esther, Moses, etc., the detailed appraisal of the Bride in the Song of Songs and Psalm 45, God’s gifts to adorn His wife, Israel, in Ezekiel, etc. In some of these cases, the beauty has symbolic meanings or layers–especially the way I read it–which does bring us back to the point that some mean a holistic praise when they discuss beauty. Sort of like a synechdoche, a part for the whole.

Oh, and Jane, that is a good link. I’ve often marveled at the variety of bodies presented as beautiful in old movies even as I grimace at the corsets :). We live in a sick world.

Comment by Deborah

February 8, 2010 @ 12:32 pm

Oh, and Trevor and Liz–

That was wonderful advice your colleague at Voice of the Martyrs provided. If we get so focused on the one mission, we are eaten up by it. How true! Thanks for sharing it with us.

I remember reading an article last year based on a survey in Australia and surveys in the U.S. It found that men in Australia liked women who were far more “normal,” a size 12 (albeit a European size twelve and so really still toward the small side–like maybe an 8 U.S.), while U.S. men were fixated on the waifs (the size 0 and 2s). The idea was that the U.S. has been overrun by undernourished media images and Australia less so. Can you speak to that? (And no, I do not have the article.)

And as an aside, part of why I can sometimes appreciate men applauding their wives’ beauty is because so many of the seemingly put together and happy couples I have known actually have underlying tension about weight (the husband feeling the wife isn’t keeping herself well enough thanks to this media emphasis). It’s not just the obviously distant couples, and it makes me sick. So if a husband can publically revel in his “normal” wife, I’m not so sure that is a bad thing….

Comment by ls

February 8, 2010 @ 12:32 pm

It would be good/helpful to me, also to help others not be ‘presumptuous’ too, if pastors/men in the congregation/and men in general who desire to have ‘women as persons’ in their lives could put to words(and actions) what that inner beauty of the woman of their lives is that they admire/desire/appreciate. Maybe this is part of ‘living in consideration of your wives and honoring them as co-heirs of life’. And the ‘best’ demonstration, in my opinion, of appreciating and showing value for the ‘work’ of a person is a willingness to help (and/or learn) with that relational ‘work’ of being present for another. This is essential for parents and wouldn’t it be wonderful if both genders were willing to learn and move toward what ‘the best that could be done’ is when raising children?

I don’t presume (anymore or I am intentional about trying not to) that pastors,male or female, act as they speak. I am learning to wait and see and to be Berean, after all, Jesus is an authority who ‘does what He says’ and did not dominantly ask for our trust without demonstrating His trustworthiness.

ls

Comment by Deborah

February 8, 2010 @ 1:22 pm

Agreed on all points, ls. But it is my experience that husbands who are nagging their wives on looks do not make such comments and certainly not with enthusiasm (and, therefore, it can be an encouragement to hear them, as a good sign).

Comment by Liz

February 8, 2010 @ 5:27 pm

Might be an interesting exercise for the next few months to particularly take note when in a situation where a woman is introduced, whether it’s in the secular or church world. Maybe this post can alert us to a real situation and give us cause to think of ways to describe people which are not based on just their physical appearance. Some great suggestions in the previous posts of course.

As Bridget says, most men who make these introductions or comments don’t even think about it because it is so rooted in their psyche (romantic paternalism she named it) However….it does perpetuate the issue that women are valued more for their appearance than their achievements, or more importantly, for their godliness.

It’s hard though because the women are steeped in the whole culture also, otherwise there wouldn’t be the interest in what some call the ‘fluffy’ women’s meetings in churches and women wouldn’t take on work which glorifies their bodies. Yes..I know some of these jobs pay well and some women do them because they feel they have no choice, but….others enjoy the attentions and will even justify this sort of work as a legitimate and worthy occupation.

So, what can we do ? Most of us will only have the opportunity to affect our little space in the world, so let’s do all we can to change attitudes by education, the occasional comment and making sure we don’t do the very things we criticise others for doing.

Comment by Liz

February 8, 2010 @ 5:32 pm

Scott…your comment reminds us that we all comment through our own experience and the writer of the post was sharing her experience. There are some pastors who would have the right attitude when using the word beauty for their wives, but we are talking here about the tendency for pastors and other leaders to talk of their wives only as an ornament or someone to look at, not get to know as a person.

It all depends on what kind of church one attends as to how we view lots of things.

It is sometimes helpful for guys to put themselves in a woman’s shoes and imagine what it would be like if they were introduced with reference to their physique or general attractiveness to women. Yes…that does happen too and it’s just as distasteful!

Comment by Wesley

February 8, 2010 @ 5:40 pm

Funny thing, in my personal past, I’ve had the opposite problem.

Up through college (currently in a PhD program), every relationship I’d ever had or been interested in was NOT based on appearance, to the point where sometimes I had them begging me for a physical compliment ;-). Since then, sadly, I’ve “grown” (like growing a strange hair on my ear) to notice the physical first, to the point where the most recent relationship I had, I accidentally commented on her looks first, then the non-physical qualities I found in her to be attractive.

Hearing “guy talk,” especially where I work my “between classes” job, I realize how many times someone has gotten on my case for not “pursuing” someone attractive because they smoked, or had kids, or a boyfriend, or were too young, etc., focusing solely on the physical.

Like all things, I suppose, it’s about the right kind of balance (unless you’re in a debate club or a TV pundit).

If/when I get married, I’ll try to stick to an all-encompassing adjective that will cover all bases, like “awesome” or “remarkable” or “tubular” (anyone married to me would have to have a sense of humor anyway).

Comment by Lin

February 8, 2010 @ 8:38 pm

“So..how do we teach little girls and young women that they have been created by God for something special, whether they marry or not, whether they are deemed beautiful or not. There are wonderful stories of parents who did just that and the women who grew to be outstanding preachers and missionaries.”

I tell my daughter she was created to serve God first and foremost. I also read scripture to her every night and explain the priesthood of believer, too. (My mom drilled that into my head…probably because she could see how many folks follow men instead of Christ)

Just a few nights ago, we got into a lengthy discussion of Galatians and what it means to have the FULL inheritance.

I hope it sinks in despite all the opposite messages thrown at her!

Comment by Liz

February 8, 2010 @ 11:29 pm

Lin, your daughter is so blessed to have that input. It will certainly hold her in good stead, in spite of everything else she is told.

Comment by Liz

February 9, 2010 @ 6:11 am

Today I came across a wonderful quote attributed to Karl Barth
“To clasp the hands in prayer is the beginning of an uprising against the disorder of the world”

Comment by Jane

February 11, 2010 @ 12:40 pm

http://homesewersneedleworkersunion-hsnwu.blogspot.com/2010/02/family-values-2-million-dollars-and-pro.html

Jane

Comment by Sarah Taylor

February 17, 2010 @ 12:37 pm

Wow, Jack. I love this. A lot.

Comment by Lisa

February 20, 2010 @ 7:14 pm

I’m new to this blog site, but I have to say I am very impressed. I noticed the last post on here was a few days back, but maybe someone will still read this.

I am a blooming egalitarian, which is completely heretical from where I come from (I’ve only managed to tell some of my closest friends). I grew up in an extremely complementarian church; I can’t tell you how many sermons I’ve heard on “man’s veto power” until I’m sick of hearing it. I’ve also heard all the “woman’s highest calling is to be a wife and mother” (notice, I’ve never heard men being extolled to undertake in parenting…how un-masculine, right?).

In my first few years of high school, I decided to think for myself and was introduced to several egalitarian scholars. Almost as soon as I was introduced to the subject, I absorbed it in like a dry sponge (I was reading, thinking, ‘why hasn’t anyone told me about this before?). After I became certain that I was going to become a full egalitarian, I felt free. Complementarians are always saying how egalitarian women are “feminist” and they cannot rejoice in their femininity. Nothing could be further from the truth – I used to hate being a woman when I was a believer in gender hierarchy, but now I know that I can use my gifts in the church and use my life in many ways to serve God regardless of my gender. How freeing! It makes me want to praise God that he made me a woman – not to serve man and make my life all about marriage, but that I can serve my Creator in whatever task he has given to me! And once I get married, I can have a man that loves me and is my PARTNER not my master. Now, I know that I can have a marriage with MUTUAL love, respect and submission.

Alright, I just had to get that out =P. Like I said, I’m just a blooming egalitarian, and I am young and in a hard spot with the Church around me. Please give me some encouragement if you can! I don’t know any other egalitarians around me, and the viewpoint is very unpopular where I come from.

I completely agree with this last post on beauty. The Western culture especially is obsessed with the feminine appeal. I know that so many people have commented on my beauty, but I’d rather have comments on my hard work ethic and my character. Sadly, I even find this mindset in the church. How can we make reform?

Comment by Mara

February 20, 2010 @ 11:52 pm

Welcome Lisa.
Yes, you’ve found a wonderful spot here and should become a member of CBE if you can.
Another place you can go for encouragement, along with here, is the equality central forum.

http://equalitycentral.com/forum/index.php

Many egals there of many types. Some conservative, others less so, but all honor the Bible and love God.

Again welcome

Comment by Liz

February 21, 2010 @ 1:46 am

Yes Lisa, I echo Mara’s welcome. It’s wonderful to know there are new readers who are finding this site helpful. Many times it is an exercise in faith as we don’t always hear from people like yourself. Hope you’ll continue to contribute and it will be great to journey along with you in your new freedom.

Understanding true equality is something which escapes so many, mostly due to the centuries of poor interpretations of certain bible passages and the pervading culture which has such influence. Once known…..we could never return and want to tell everyone what freedom there is in Christ.

In answer to your question re reform…I think it is a slow process as it has taken so long for hierarchy to become so entrenched. It is also an enlightenment issue so we are always asking God to open the eyes of those who don’t see.
People like yourself who have had their eyes opened will be used of God to challenge and encourage others.

When we first read about egalitarianism it was the answer to all the questions we had over so many years and gave us solid reasons for what we had instinctively known all along.

Comment by Trevor

February 21, 2010 @ 3:47 am

Welcome Lisa, not only to this blog site but into the new freedom in Christ that you have so ably expressed. I’d like to pick up on a couple of lines because, as you’ve experienced, emotive (but false) statements about “a lack of femininity” are often hurled disparagingly at egalitarians.

“- I used to hate being a woman when I was a believer in gender hierarchy, but now I know that I can use my gifts in the church and use my life in so many ways to serve God regardless of my gender. How freeing! It makes me want to praise God that he made me a woman -”.

To my mind you have hit on the truth of the situation in that for you, and many others, this new found freedom is a release into far greater possibilities than are offered a woman in hierarchical church structures. Not only that but an egalitarian view does not rob you of your femininity at all. In fact the reverse, it enables you to see that being a woman won’t disadvantage you in offering your life in service for Christ. You are also right Lisa in feeling the need for encouragement because, sadly, there are plenty of people out there who will want to talk you out of this new sense of freedom.

Thankfully there are heaps of resources and connections to be found through CBE. Possibly even a chapter of likeminded believers (if you happen to be in the USA) in your area or a CBE listing of egalitarian churches may just uncover one that is near enough for you to attend.

Comment by Deborah

February 21, 2010 @ 12:41 pm

Lisa,

Thanks for sharing. I so relate to both your struggle in not having any local egalitarian friends and the new love for being a woman and the freedom to flourish in it found once making that jump. Both sum up my current experience.

Welcome,
Deb