The CBE Scroll

Comment by Jonathan

March 20, 2010 @ 6:12 am

Excellent. I agree with your assumption of chilvary and servanthood. I think that chilvary started with servanthood as its intention but I theorize that the “place” and “weakness” of women was part of its formation.

In Blast from the Past a character says, “I know, I mean I thought a “gentleman” was somebody that owned horses. But it turns out, his short and simple definition of a lady or a gentleman is, someone who always tries to make sure the people around him or her are as comfortable as possible.”

When a system begins to make others uncomfortable it fails to serve them.

Comment by leigh

March 20, 2010 @ 9:52 am

This post does a great job articulating the reasons that chivalry is something that has made me uncomfortable for a long time.

What struck me particularly is that although the focus of the practice appears to be on the woman who is being “served”, chivalry is revealed here to be “what ‘real men’ do”. And the observation that some men get quite upset when they aren’t permitted to behave in this way, because they feel it lessens their maleness, supports the idea that the real focus here is on the chivalrous man. So the appearance can be deceiving.

And this articulates an important piece of what makes me uncomfortable with chivalry. The system makes me responsible for reacting in certain ways to being “helped”, lest I make someone feel like less of a man. So chivalry puts upon me the responsibility of someone else’s sense of self-worth. No wonder I feel pressured to jog to a door that some strange man is (still) holding open for me in the distance in a public location…

Comment by Liz

March 20, 2010 @ 5:24 pm

Thanks for bringing this whole subject into focus. I have mostly felt uncomfortable in those situations but couldn’t exactly decide why…now it is so clear.

What most men don’t realise is that women usually sense when something is done out of custom or because we are being treated somehow as lesser or more fragile beings…ugh!

General courtesy is welcomed and I’m sure ‘real’ men like someone to open the door for them when it’s necessary.

Comment by Trevor

March 20, 2010 @ 9:44 pm

When Liz and I were first married and in company with other young married,s I used to like to open the car door for her as a continuing sign of my affection. I did this because many of our longer married friends seemingly had cooled in their love for one another and seemed not to consider one another in this way.

I don’t think that at that time I conceived of the notion of chivalry, it was just that it was, as has been stated, “the done thing.” In later married life, when I was more informed and understood that this practice originated with the thought of women needing to be cosseted, as the weaker sex, I began to view the action differently.

Occasionally I still open the car door for Liz, more as a courtesy these days. Since being married I don’t recall ever being in a situation where I’ve felt to do it for any other woman, apart from my mother perhaps. But these days I would open any door for any person, male or female, if I arrived there first, and urge them to enter. In these instances it is a common courtesy.

Having said all of that I do appreciate that the practice, whatever its origins or motivations might be, can be felt to be demeaning as far as liberated women are concerned. I can also see that some men (perhaps many?) would consider it a male thing and the ‘manly’ thing to do for the ‘weaker’ sex and in that sense bolster their own egos.

Far better, as the author of this post has suggested, if the motivation to be courteous in this way to anyone is motivated by a desire to be a servant.

The important thing here, it seems to me, is that we allow other people to express how an action, even an offer of biblical servanthood, affects them personally. We all need to be challenged to think outside of the box of expected norms in these and related matters in the 21st century.

Comment by Liz

March 21, 2010 @ 5:26 am

As the recipient of Trevor’s courtesies, I have often said that I’m happy to accept these gestures as I know he does it because he wants to and because it is in consideration of my comfort. Likewise, I have opened many doors for him over the years – it’s usually a matter of who is carrying the groceries :-)

Also, I have always said that I am happy to do things for him as long as he doesn’t ‘expect’ it as my duty. That would spoil the pleasure of serving him as he often serves me.

Comment by Sonnet

March 21, 2010 @ 4:42 pm

When my kids were going to homeschool enrichment classes one afternoon a week, the boys were *required* to be chivalrous to the girls. Anytime they lined up to switch classes, the boys had to let the girls line up first.

This bothered me. Why should the girls always receive preferential treatment over the boys? And isn’t it better to give freely instead of under compulsion? It seemed like they were creating more division between the sexes by this practice than promoting harmony.

Comment by Liz

March 21, 2010 @ 6:03 pm

It’s so true. Many of these practices do cause children to see each other as different and make the way for teasing (girls and boys)

I remember being at a parenting conference and the chairs were being shifted so one mum asked her son to ‘take over’ shifting a stack of chairs from a girl. When I protested, she said that she was teaching her son to honour women. I suggested that the girl could feel offended by that as she was quite capable of doing the job.
The mum couldn’t understand my point of view and said something about women usually being not so strong. Just another incident in the life of this girl to reinforce that she is somehow not quite as capable or useful.

Comment by Leigh

March 21, 2010 @ 7:56 pm

It’s also funny to me that “ladies first” ends after marriage in at least one sense. It’s “Mr. & Mrs.” and “Jack & Jill”: rarely the reverse orders.

Comment by Deborah

March 21, 2010 @ 9:29 pm

Good article. I have lots of thoughts, but ya’ll are saying them :).

Comment by Liz

March 21, 2010 @ 9:46 pm

For some years now, I have purposefully written Liz & Trevor on all correspondence just to help people think differently. It’s just a little thing, but I remember when I first started doing it I felt a new freedom.

Also, when I compiled directory lists for church, I began writing the wife’s name first when recording couples’ details. No-one made any comment for or against, but I think it is a subtle way to change the mindset.

Comment by Anonymous

March 21, 2010 @ 10:58 pm

I know that most, if not all on this website, probably do not support homosexuality. I’m a rather conservative Christian, and have worked this out in my own faith… I say this only to ensure that you understand that I’m coming from the same basis as you all for my belief and Christian faith. But being homosexual, I have an interesting perspective of seeing this issue truly outside of the social norms. I come from the south where I am used to the very proper social customs and manners that come with that territory. Most often, however, it was done just out of deference towards me…and often there would be a man that walked in after me and the door would still be held open for him as well as me. However, on the west coast, I find that it’s only the women who seem to even notice small courtesies such as this, if at all. I just wish that both sexes would be aware of each other and each other’s needs as human beings.

I am dating and I enjoy opening the door for my girlfriend…including the car door occasionally. Not because she is weaker than I, but just because it is a simple action that I can do that shows her that I value her, notice her, and love her in the smallest moments. It inevitably puts a smile on her face, makes her feel special, wanted, desired, and even protected. And the last one is almost humorous because if you saw a picture of us two, you would know that in a fight, it would be her that won. She’s small but sturdy, I’m average and very thin. But just as God judges the intentions of our hearts, so do the people we are in relationship with- romantic or otherwise- notice when things are done out of a kind intention or not. This is indeed what is important. I think we all have been around people who are mannerly, but just make you feel icky by their good manners. It has to do with those small glimpses of 1 Corinthians 13.

Comment by Deborah

March 22, 2010 @ 10:28 am

Anon,

I agree that many times I can feel the attitudes behind the actions. I’ve come (partly by choice) to appreciate male courtesies after living in the midwest and south (at first it threw me for a total loop, as a northeasterner). But sometimes I FEEL the whole package coming with it (the condescension, etc.) It just emanates off of some men. So I find my thoughts on these actions varying tremendously–part of why I appreciate the nuanced responses to this article.

I think you are right that many here will disagree with you that God would approve of homosexual behavior, and personally, I have a heart and desire to see reparative ministries flourish. But I’m glad you felt comfortable sharing your perspective here. May His light and truth guide….

Blessings,
Deb

Comment by Charis

March 22, 2010 @ 5:32 pm

When I had young children, I figured the tradition of men holding open doors was pretty practical as I was always pushing a stroller or carrying a baby and a diaper bag.

The definition of “chivalry” is apparently very culturally dependent. When I read the above post, I was reminded of something I just read from Elizabeth Elliot which makes me thankful that I am not a woman of the tribe which expects the women to carry all the heaviest loads:

For a number of years I lived with jungle Indians of South America who expressed their masculinity and femininity in a variety of ways, never pretended that the differences were negligible, and had no word for role. The femininity of woman was a deep-rooted consciousness of what she was made for. It was expressed in everything she did differently from men, from her hairstyle and clothes (if she wore any) to the way she sat and the work she did. Any child knew that women wove hammocks and made pots and caught fish with their hands, cleared underbrush, planted crops, and carried by far the heaviest loads, while men chopped down trees and hunted, caught fish with nets and spears, and carried no loads at all if there was a woman around. Nobody had any complaints. These responsibilities were not up for grabs, not interchangeable, not equal. Nobody thought of power or prestige or competition. Nobody talked about roles. This was the way things were. -Elizabeth Elliot “The Essence of Femininity”

Comment by Liz

March 22, 2010 @ 5:47 pm

It was another book by Elisabeth Elliot which I read as a young wife which caused me to question the teachings about how women should behave and
‘what they were made for’ as Charis has quoted.

Why would Christian missionaries back up their beliefs about the creation of women and men by the practices of ‘heathen’ tribes ? Even as a young girl, I always assumed that primitive people lived in certain ways because they hadn’t heard the gospel that God loved them and that they had been created as unique, valuable persons. That was, of course, before I knew that many Christians taught that women and men had been created differently.

Comment by Liz

March 22, 2010 @ 5:58 pm

That’s the key to so much ..’the intentions of our heart’ as anonymous’ so aptly put it.
And that, only God knows them! We can misjudge others’ motives so easily.
I guess our reaction should always be the same to a courtesy – a genuine thank you – and let God deal with the other person’s attitude.

Yes..there are many times we can feel the condecension but even here, if we esteem others better than ourselves, we can accept that with our head held high and move on. There’s always the slight chance we could have been wrong and really hurt a person by criticising his or her actions.
However….when a person makes a comment with the action which shows exactly where their heart is……well that’s a different matter and time to speak up, firmly and lovingly!

Comment by Katie

March 23, 2010 @ 6:04 am

I loved reading all this. I am a married mom and had 3 kids in a little over 3 years. I stay home with them and have begun homeschooling. All that said – I am saturated in kids and chaos. When my husband (or anyone else really) does chivalrous things for me it makes me feel special and given my daily life, there is little there to make me feel special. So, I enjoy these moments that to me say that I do deserve something “set apart” from the norm.

Comment by Ryan

March 23, 2010 @ 10:09 am

Regarding the listing of a married couple’s names…

Generally, I list the names alphabetically. For my wife and I, that means we are “Anna & Ryan.” I have found that a simple way to keep myself from always listing men first and subtly reinforcing the idea that men are superior.

~Ryan

Comment by Deborah

March 23, 2010 @ 10:15 am

Liz, good point (and correction of me). I think it is pretty unmistakable to a discerning person *at times* though. Of course, our trigger-issues can make us too sensitive and cause us to misread the issues at hand. But some people just ooze things, and if you accidentally misstep and don’t act quite like the “woman” is expected to, their face will distort with their issues clearly written over it. That said, I’m always gracious in response. And particularly in the south, I’m always mindful of how much cultural pressure has shaped men so that their hearts might be pretty good but their ideas (and their sense of how they must strive for masculinity) too strong. I feel sorry for men who won’t even walk through the door of my own house until I release the door so that they press their own weight against it first so as not to feel that a woman has opened the door for them. That just seems like a lot of pressure to put on oneself to always play the “role.”

Comment by Ryan

March 23, 2010 @ 10:20 am

Sometimes I worry how my reaction to these “chivalrous” customs will be viewed. Take, for example, the custom of letting women go to the front of the line at a holiday dinner buffet. Ignoring that custom, even when done out of a belief that women are equals, may send the message that I just don’t care about women.

It is a delicate balance sometimes, because how we react to the culture in which we live often does send messages about what we really believe. Others, who always see our actions, and not necessarily our motivations, may not understand why we behave as we do and reach the wrong conclusions. I’m not saying we should just give in and accept a system which encourages us to view each others’ gender first, and humanity second, but it can be a worthwhile concern.

~Ryan

Comment by SHR

March 23, 2010 @ 2:55 pm

Hello, This is my first time commenting, but I’ve been reading posts for quite some time.You all have very good points and I’m enjoying reading this.

I (a woman)like to hold doors open for both women and men. I don’t think it’s as much of an issue here in Canada though. I noticed it a lot more when I was in university with a lot of students from the U.S., and many from the southern parts. I found it humiliating once when I entered an over-crowded class room, and stood at the back with a few male students. One young man turned and saw me and offered me his chair, which I politely declined (in my mind he had got there first, so was entitled to it, and I didn’t mind standing)and he then proceeded to make a scene out of it.
I try to do the same for both genders, as an act of service, not as a reaction to their gender. I think sometimes though, that when men hear women say that they feel uncomfortable with chivalry, they then opt to go to the opposite extreme and come off seeming rude. I find freedom in holding doors open for anyone, regardless of gender, or allowing them in line or any sort of act that honours another person. I’ve had some surprised reactions from men, but most seemed to have appreciated it. It sounds like maybe it’s different in the south.

Comment by leigh

March 23, 2010 @ 4:52 pm

I try to do the same as SHR, in practice: If I reach the door first, I hold it open. I’ve seen surprise on the faces of both women and men. I believe that doing the unexpected in that way is a civilized way to take a stand. Assuming that someone isn’t insistent that I do what he wants rather than what I want (and had planned) to do, so that he may view himself as “a gentleman” (as in the example written about in the post itself). Then, as the guest author did with her friend, we may end up in conversation.

Comment by Amanda Beattie

March 24, 2010 @ 2:16 am

@Ryan (comment 91008) – I agree with your point totally. I think that’s a major reason why servanthood is such a superior way to take. Falling into a system the other way, i.e., “I say men and women are equals, so therefore I shall treat you XYZ” can be just as dishonoring to the other person as chivalry can be. When we are seeking to serve one another, rather than operating on prescribed rules or trying to prove a point, we are taking the other person’s needs, wants, and feelings into account. We reach to meet them where they are and benefit them, whatever that may look like in various circumstances. We try to be sensitive to their culture, upbringing, and personality, to leave them feeling honored and blessed.

For instance, the vast majority of the time, I simply let it slide when I sense a guy is demonstrating chivalry to me. In most of these situations, I feel like I can best serve him by not embarrassing him and demoralizing him (especially since he is, after all, truly just trying to be nice). Sometimes service, for my naturally independent self, is to allow other people to do things for me–even if I don’t need it–because it really will bless them. Sometimes service is me doing those same things for them. Sometimes service means I respect someone else’s choice to decline my offer of help. It all depends on the person and the circumstance.

The great thing about servanthood is that it’s very simple, and it cuts both ways. Both men and women are freed from prescribed roles to act out. Both men and women are called to serve one another and prefer one another. Both men and women are called to be gracious to one another’s broken, bumbling attempts at servanthood. When we’re all pursuing being more like Jesus, things just work better.

Comment by Marjorie

March 24, 2010 @ 5:52 am

Excellent point by Amanda on gracious giving and receiving service!

I think our experiences may vary a lot by the immediate communities in which we live and work. I have been trying to remember if there are unpleasant vibes when men open doors for me. No, there are not. (Or maybe I’m just naive!)

When my husband was living, what I did find a bit distasteful was his performance, but only in public, of these niceties. They sometimes felt like a demonstration of ownership

Comment by Deborah

March 24, 2010 @ 10:14 am

Great post, Amanda, and I agree 100%.

Marjorie, I first came across chivalry in the Midwest, and although I was utterly puzzled by it for lack of familiarity (being from the northeast), it was all done in a nice spirit. I have found this decidedly different in the south for some reason. But I still respond graciously as Amanda says. It’s just that sometimes I appreciate or am neutral about the spirit behind it, and sometimes I am grieved at the spirit behind it.

All best,
Deb

Comment by Deborah

March 24, 2010 @ 10:17 am

P.S.–Ryan, I find the same puzzlement in a diminished fashion when I have folks from up north visiting me or when I go up north to visit a church there. I don’t remember how to be around my dad even and so hold the door open for him very tentatively and watch his face to see if he is offended or embarrassed(as most men down here would be). I get so confused!!! And it does add to the stress level. Also when entering a store down here, I still feel rude if I do not hold it open for a man close behind me, but I often find that this causes him to turn red or otherwise get flustered. I hate the resultant feeling. But this is a harder one for guys b/c of the prevalent expectations.

Comment by ls

March 24, 2010 @ 6:45 pm

Marjorie, the angle of ‘distaste’ that I experienced was that my husband would do ‘extra’ chivalry for some, while I and others didn’t receive this ‘service’. And, sadly, the communication and service that Amanda describes in (91011), didn’t happen often.

Also I find it sad that when I describe something along the lines of Amanda’s description of male/female relationships some fellow Christian women have said…”Oh you want someone gay in your life”. This is sad and confusing to me.

ls

Comment by Christensen Low

March 26, 2010 @ 11:56 pm

Ryan, you briefly mentioned the notion of how men are perceived if we don’t perform chivalrous acts.

Almost every day, up here in Chicago, I go through this dilemma. I’m one of the first to get on my bus, and inevitably, a woman will usually stand near where I am sitting. Now, I grew up in Texas where I man would jump up and give the woman a seat. But, being a person who tries to view equality in all things, I find it difficult to show this “servanthood” because (1) there is a guy standing next to that young lady that I wouldn’t offer my seat to because it would just be “odd” in our cultures (2) I don’t like the notion of offering my seat because it feels as if I am saying to her – “yes, you are the weaker gender. Now, sit! You must be too tired from being weak!” I enjoy being a servant to anyone, but I don’t like most chivalrous acts because of the message that is often communicated by them. Usually, this is not a problem in Chicago because most men don’t even do chivalry (but most Chicagoans are rude by my Texas standards!).

One day, I was on the subway, and the guy sitting next to me (near the window) offered his seat. The young lady who sat down said in a loud voice, “thank you! I am a reporter for a newspaper, and you are the first man to offer his seat to me! I am going to write this up in my column.” There I was red-faced and feel like an *** (fill in the blanks). She was a healthy, young lady, and he was a somewhat elderly man. So, what made her more “fitting” to get the seat? I turned to her and explained that, in the Korean culture (I used to live in Korea) it would have been an insult if I had offered her my seat. Usually, it is young people who offer their seats to elderly people. So, I would have been saying that she was old if I had offered her my seat! Needless to say, my comments didn’t enter her extollig the merits of the chivalrous man in her article.

I feel like a rude person if I don’t follow the dictates of chivalry. I feel that women are judging me as not be “acceptable” if I don’t grab their bag. In fact, my ex-girlfriend often complained that I never grabbed her bag to carry it for her (even though I did – but only when it was heavy). But is it truly necessary to yank that plastic bag with one pack of gum in it to be “kind”?

What is funny is that I was rather chivalrous with my ex-girlfriend. When it came to expressing my love, my up-bringing in Texas came out, and I showed my affection by opening the door for her. I gladly did it because I wanted her to be able to visually see my love (and I did so in many other ways too). It further confused the issue since my ex is Korean, and her ideas of chivalry were different. :)

Comment by Christensen Low

March 27, 2010 @ 7:16 am

@Amanda Beattie

Really enjoyed reading your article, by the way :)

Comment by Deborah

March 27, 2010 @ 11:10 am

Oh, Amanda, I just realized that you wrote the article as well as an excellent comment. My comment on your “post” was in response to your comment.

Comment by Amanda Beattie

March 27, 2010 @ 6:01 pm

@Christensen Low (91032) – This is another facet of chivalry that convinces me that something must be off with it. I don’t like that men are often put in a catch-22 of, “Will I be percieved as rude if I [insert chivalrous act here]? Or will I be perceived as rude if I don’t do that?” It’s so much pressure, and it’s expecting men to be able to read women’s minds. I’m not a fan of that arrangement.

In an ideal world, I think it would work something more like this (to borrow your example)- Man: “Oh, hi, would you like to sit down here?” Woman: “Thank you! That would be great,” or “No thanks, I’m fine standing.” People communicated, were honest, and nothing embarrassing, insulting, or otherwise awkward happened.

That’s a big difference from – Man (jumping to his feet): “Oh, here! Sit down!” Woman: “Uh, no thanks, I’d prefer to stand…” Man: “Oh, no no no, I insist!” [awkward exchange to follow]

That’s also a big difference from – Woman (to self): “Oh my GOSH, I can’t believe none of these men are offering me a seat. How rude and self-centered…” …as if able-bodied women need or deserve to sit down any more than men do.

That’s where the whole entitlement/obligation stuff kicks in, and actually serving each other has to take a back seat to fulfilling one’s prescribed role.

…and Christensen and Deborah, thank you for the kind comments. :)

Comment by Liz

March 29, 2010 @ 5:21 pm

Have just recommended a great book to answer a question on the current post
(take a look) and one of the cartoons has a heavily pregnant woman with grocery bags and screaming kid in tow standing in a bus while a guy sitting down says
“I’d offer you my seat but I don’t want to offend your sense of equality”

Sometimes there is no issue…….

Comment by Christensen Low

April 8, 2010 @ 7:53 am

The messages of gender inequality and roles is persistent and prevalent in our society. As Christians, how much do we listen to these and not the Bible? Most of my friends know that I am an egalitarian. This is something that comes up a lot in my life, and, to be honest, sometimes I wished it didn’t because of the “struggles” it includes in my life. However, even those friends who know I’m an egalitarian treat me as a stereotypical man sometimes.

Last Easter, I was over at a friend’s house for Easter dinner. When I got to the home, it became quickly apparent that I was the only man there and that I didn’t know most of the people there. But my friend said: “Oh, Chris doesn’t mind!” And I don’t. Being a teacher, I’m used to being in a room full of women :) I usually don’t even notice it.

Though, when it came out that I’m a feminist (I use that term only because most people don’t know what an egalitarian is), many of the older women were impressed. Cool. Good to be affirmed :) But sadly, the ones who affirmed me weren’t the Christians!

Also, the whole dinner and so forth, being the only man, it was hard to know what expectations were on me. I didn’t want to seem rude…but I didn’t want to play roles that I don’t think are in the Bible.

But later, my friend asked me to try to fix the handle-crank on a window that had broken. Why? “Because you are a man.” But I don’t know how to fix such things! Didn’t matter…I’m the man. I didn’t argue and tried to figure it out, but I was glad when another young lady joined in to help. In the end, “the man” couldn’t figure it out. But why ask an English teacher to fix something mechanical?

Later, when we were leaving, knowing my friend’s expectations, it was hard for me to know where to sit in the car. Should I take the front seat since I’m heading there now or give it to one of the ladies? I don’t mind giving up my seat…I just don’t want to do it based on gender. And don’t like people judging me as being rude just because I don’t follow the rules of chivalry.

A few days later, when I was on the subway, I overheard a young lady telling her friend why her boyfriend wasn’t sitting down. “Oh, he doesn’t sit down when there are any women standing.” This was said within earshot of a young lady who had chosen to stand. Awkwardly, a seat remained empty because the boyfriend refused to sit down next to his girlfriend. What? Must all the women on the train have a seat before any man? I wanted to ask the couple – why? What are you communicating about women by doing this? But I knew they simply saw it as respect. Probably didn’t think much of it as just the respectable thing to do. And I held my tongue because I’m already too outspoken.

But it just amazes me how many gender-specific messages are constantly being communicated in our culture. Just take a few days to record them. You will be amazed too!

Comment by Jon Trott

June 11, 2010 @ 11:13 pm

I wrote an article a few years ago on this topic for Mutuality magazine. My contention then was that chivalry didn’t have to die; that it could be part of a mutually honoring sort of thing between all human beings. I still believe that… but would understand well why many women in particular would not.

Comment by Liz

June 12, 2010 @ 6:44 am

Jon….do you recall when that article was published ? I asked the office if they had a record and went through all our copies but couldn’t find your article when the writer of this post was first discussing this topic.

Comment by A Timothy

July 8, 2010 @ 6:08 pm

Well now, this was quite the passel of comments! Having read them all I do have a few thoughts.

As a man, I appreciate chivalry. Not because I think women are weaker or of less value. Neither is true, neither is what the Bible teaches. The Bible does teach though that they have different roles. The man is in the position to care for and protect his family/wife. Not because his wife has less value, or is, in fact, across the board weaker in physical strength! But because that is the role God has given for reasons the Bible does touch on, but all that matters is that that is the way God created the relationship.

I see with some surprise that the ladies commenting do not seem to care for someone holding the door for them, or doing other such things. At least, a different response than perhaps I have experienced. Here is where I want to clarify my comment about chivalry above: I appreciate chivalry because it *does* give a list of sorts of things to be done. Now before ye behead me–;)– I also agree with you about chivalry in the sense that rules cannot encompass all situations, and its weakness is that it is not personally tailored/situationally tailored.

“After more verbal tug-of-war than I care to recount, my friend looked at me helplessly and finally protested, “But… you’re a woman!”
Needless to say, I didn’t particularly appreciate that logic.
What struck me particularly is that although the focus of the practice appears to be on the woman who is being “served”, chivalry is revealed here to be “what ‘real men’ do”. And the observation that some men get quite upset when they aren’t permitted to behave in this way, because they feel it lessens their maleness, supports the idea that the real focus here is on the chivalrous man. So the appearance can be deceiving.”

This is just as you said where Chivalry “breaks down”. Because it had a rule for the situation it didn’t work because you acted outside of what it conditioned the guy to expect. But before we go after men for trying to be chivalrous, the problem with this situation was not his wanting to give up his seat, at least by my thinking. On the contrary, I see that as something worthwhile to do, the problem was when he tried to force you to take the seat. Then it crossed over the “Treating others more highly than yourself” to “Making sure they do _______ so I can feel like I did right by them.” Do you see what I am saying? It was not the attempt to give the seat that was the problem, correct? It was his attempt to convince you/force you to take the seat that posed the problem.

Now *ducks* I admit it, I open doors for women—-but I also open them for men. It shouldn’t be the lack of value, or “boxing/forcing them into a mold” of women that would cause a man to open a door for them. But instead a profound appreciation and respect for women, an absolutely needed helpmate from God.

I believe if more men opened doors, gave seats, carried things, ____(fill in the blank) for women with this perspective it would clear most of the issues talked about in the comment section up. That way….when situations like in the post come up, when a lass doesn’t want to sit in a chair, have a door opened, or any such thing they can politely refuse and the matter is settled. It is no longer a set of rules that men have to do, but simply, some positive ideas to honor women now paired with the Bibles teaching on treating others more highly than yourself.

Some thoughts that came from my scattered brain, please don’t come down too hard on me ;)

In Christ,
Timothy

Comment by Nathan

July 9, 2010 @ 8:11 am

@Timothy, thank you for saying exactly what I’ve wanted to say the whole time I’ve been reading these comments :-)

The problem wasn’t that he wanted to give up his seat, it’s that he was trying to force you to take his seat. That’s when it becomes disrespectful.

Where I come from, most people don’t give up their seats, carry bags, etc. Typically all you see is door holding, which men and women do for each other as a service. So when I give up my seat or something similar, it’s a serious stand. I don’t do it because I feel like I have to. I do it because I want to. For me, true chivalry is “esteeming others better than yourself”. Has nothing to do with gender. There are simply different ways of showing this respect toward men than for women. Because, like it or not, we are different in some ways.

And yeah…very surprised by some of the women’s comments. It seems like a major tug of war game. I know girls that complain of the lack of chivalrous men and now I read of women wishing they’d stop. This is why true chivalry is dying I think. Because it’s not accepted.

Comment by Trevor

July 9, 2010 @ 3:43 pm

@Timothy and Nathan. I think that the whole point that women are making here in this post and comments is that, as egalitarian believers, they object to chivalrous acts being performed for them because it is perceived to be a man’s ‘role’. The concept of pre-ordained, God given, roles for men and women being Biblically based is a non issue. The consensus seems to be that both men and women are happy to receive a courtesy that arises out of the “one anothers” of Scripture.

Comment by Deborah

July 9, 2010 @ 7:04 pm

For me personally, it’s not even so much the idea of roles here. If a guy really simply feels like it is a great way to be nice, that’s one thing. But when it is mixed in w/ quite apparent condescension, when it is forced on you, when it is mixed w/ oogling yet you feel like you can’t turn away from his sort of upper hand in this interaction, and when it means you cannot help back (even to open your own door for a guy–sheesh!!), that’s troubling to me. And since I’ve been finding the overarching idea of strict gender roles problematic and constrictive of our true persons as men and women, indeed enabling much suffering amid wives I’ve intimately known, I do tend to want to step clear of guy/girl rules. But again, it’s those four specifics which are likely to bother me some. And I really do not think most guys realize how often those specifics come up, even the ones who are practicing them. On account of that, I’d just as soon see the practice go.

Comment by Amanda Beattie

July 13, 2010 @ 3:20 am

@A Timothy – As a single woman, I confess that there are many of my ideas regarding godly marriage that have not yet been cemented. But regardless of how we should wish to argue “roles” in that sense, it is not therefore true that all women have roles relative to all men and that women in general are created to be “helpmeets” to men in general. If, as you say, there are God-given roles between a husband and his wife and family, those same roles don’t extend to every woman a man ever encounters.

Re: The real problem being my friend trying to “force” me to take his seat… that’s actually exactly my point in the above article. I appreciated that he saw me sitting on the floor and offered what he thought would be a more comfortable seat. That, in my mind, is basic servanthood–if I had been on a couch, and saw another woman heading for the floor, I probably would have offered her a seat as well. But the problem was when the offer was not just an offer of kindness, but a panicked defense of those “roles”.

You said you open the door for women as well for men. Awesome. I am a fan of not letting doors hit the people behind me in the face. Serving one another is great, and I think that’s a perfect, simple example of preferring one another (which is definitely biblical). But that’s not the same thing as chivalry, which disproportionately attends to, focuses on, and “serves” (to the point of babying) women, because they are the “fairer sex” and the men are their defenders/providers. Um, no. If I don’t know a particular guy from the man in the moon, I certainly don’t expect him to be my knight in shining armor, and it’s probably going to make me uncomfortable if he tries to be.

I have no problem with any given guy holding open a door for me, carrying something, offering me his seat, etc. Nor, I imagine, do most of the women commenting on this thread. I do have a problem with a guy insisting on doing all those things, whether or not it actually serves me, because it’s somehow proper protocol, and therefore his place to do it and my place to receive it. From my experience, this is what “chivalry” almost always ends up doing.

@Nathan: You said, “The problem wasn’t that he wanted to give up his seat, it’s that he was trying to force you to take his seat. That’s when it becomes disrespectful.” – I agree; this was exactly my point in my post. I think true preferring of one another (a biblical concept) is most easily done outside of the context of a system of chivalry (a medieval concept).

And for the record, I don’t think it’s remotely appropriate for women to complain about a lack of chivalry in men. Our role as Christians is to humble ourselves and serve one another, not demand service from one another.

Comment by Robyn

August 15, 2010 @ 5:51 pm

I come from an area where the younger generation isn’t learning chivalry and the older generation is forcing it on us as hard as they can. I was at a teen retreat with my church when they separated us based on gender. One of the topics that came up was chivalry. We girls were told that when we went to lunch to just wait at the door and to wait for one of the boys to open it. If they didn’t open it, just wait. Now mind you, there were a good 20 girls pretty much blocking the door. I don’t think any guys offered to open and hold the door, but they really didn’t get the chance. It becomes really awkward for an able-bodied woman to just stand at a door waiting for someone to open it especially if the nearest guy isn’t particularly close.

I’m proud of the way my parents raised me. When we go out to dinner together, either me or my father are walking up front, both of us being naturally faster walkers than my mother. Most restaurants we go to have double doors. Whoever gets to the first door, holds it open for the other two generally taking them out of the running to be the person who opens the second door. I feel comfortable helping whoever needs help and I get a pride boost carrying relatively heavy things, especially if it’s something I know I couldn’t previously carry.

Comment by Liz

August 15, 2010 @ 6:47 pm

Thanks for your story Robyn. Great to hear how it is for young adults. Chivalry in that context does sound rather weird! Sounds like you and your parents have a good relationship.