The CBE Scroll

Comment by Jonathan

March 29, 2010 @ 8:03 am

For a second I thought you meant that the comments should be “respectful and ironic” and then looked up “irenic” MW: favoring, conducive to, or operating toward peace, moderation, or conciliation.

Anyway, I have never liked the Christian dating book scene. It is either too much into the cultural biases, the Christian mainstream pop-culture, or shunning everything for something that makes the person into a freak.

The back and forth, pursuit and pullback, and generally establishing a relationship that takes place in most relationships does not need a how- to guide.

Comment by reJoyce

March 29, 2010 @ 9:08 am

It would thrill my soul if someone had a recommendation for a book on dating that fits more with CBE interpretations.

I’m dealing with this with my daughter and in addition to wanting info about dating that would be more egalitarian, I am also wondering if the book “Side by Side” that CBE offers would be a good intro to biblical equality for a teenager. Has anyone read it? I’m hoping for something not too long and that seems to be the shortest one in the catalog that might work. Thoughts? (Sorry, a bit off topic, I know.)

Comment by Adam Omelianchuk

March 29, 2010 @ 10:22 am

The best dating book is Sex and Dating by Mindy Meier.

http://www.ivpress.com/cgi-ivpress/book.pl/code=3605

Comment by Megan

March 29, 2010 @ 1:47 pm

Thanks, Adam, for the recommendation. I believe CBE has requested this book for review. I see it has a chapter on headship and submission. Does it take an egalitarian stance?

Yes, Rejoyce, I think Still Side by Side would be a great intro book for your daughter. It’s very accessible while still covering all the main points of the gender debate. It’s one of my favorite resources we carry.

And thanks for your comment, Jonathan. I think you will like Jason Eden’s article in this next issue of Mutuality. It’s up on the members only page, if you would like to read it and are a CBE member: http://www.cbeinternational.org/?q=content/members-only-page

Comment by Liz

March 29, 2010 @ 5:17 pm

One book we use is “Before the Ring” by William L. Coleman which we got from CBE some time back. It is a great book for couples to go through together when realising their friendship could be developing into a life-long commitment.

It would also be good for a single person to read or a person who is nursing a broken heart…pretty much anyone who isn’t already engaged to be married. Even then, it is never too late to ‘pull the pin’ if realisation comes that there are unhealthy patterns developing.

It is such an easy book to read with cartoons :-) and is full of common sense and biblical sense with relevant bible verses is frames scattered throughout.
It is thoroughly egalitarian and gives people good reasons to think through gender issues to discover if, as a couple, they have the same ideals.

Comment by Adam Omelianchuk

March 29, 2010 @ 6:17 pm

Megan,

I believe it takes one that is sympathetic towards egalitarianism. I haven’t read it in a long time!

Comment by Happily Married

March 30, 2010 @ 3:14 am

1. What are other unhealthy teachings on gender that you see in Christian dating books? (Let’s please keep these comments respectful and irenic!)
==it’s unhealthy when it’s not biblical.

2. What other specific criteria should we look for when searching for quality Christian books on dating and relationships?
==is it based on the Word of God or just personal experience.

3. Considering how few good resources we seem to have, what are the “non-negotiables,” i.e. the teachings that must be present (or must be absent) in order to recommend a book?
==personally i like to read dating books by those who are married and have stayed married.

4. What good dating books can you recommend?
==honestly, i have not read that many and those that i have read, they did not create a long lasting impression. i heard quite a fair bit of good things on this book by Lisa Bevere.
http://www.amazon.com/Kissed-Girls-Made-Them-Cry/dp/0785269894

Comment by KrisAnne

March 30, 2010 @ 5:44 am

Lauren F. Winner’s Real Sex is a GREAT book… probably not for young teens, but for later teens/young adults and parents, it is EXCELLENT.

A vast majority of these Christian dating books also seem to focus on the danger of sexual contact of any kind, almost instill a fear in girls about boys and their bodies. In my opinion that can set young people up for major hurdles down the road, if/when they do marry…. all of a sudden they have to turn off the fear button, the “sex is bad” button and enjoy it. Somehow we need to affirm sexuality while also affirming good boundaries. And I agree that singleness is not talked about enough– how do singles give and receive love in healthy, godly ways? When/how are they ever touched (b/c human beings NEED touch)? Winner addresses many of these issues. She’s a fantastic theologian and writer.

Comment by Deborah

March 30, 2010 @ 11:16 am

I’m alarmed by all of the articles you linked us to and am so glad I did not read these books as a teen. And I’m grateful for Adam, Liz, and Krisanne chiming in w/ some alternatives–Happily Married too, although from snippets of talks I’ve heard, I would be shocked if Bevere was egal-friendly for the home front despite believing women can minister provided they are “covered” and minister in a feminine style (what our culture determines that is). Anyhow, I was riveted by the articles, and my stomach was turned especially as one who knows all too well how the emphasis on thinness can play out in a life. I was well aware of the general points the reviewer here mentions, but reading excerpts of these books in the linked articles–excerpts that uphold men’s anger, over-emphasize the need for women to be thin, excuse male lust, and on and on…. Ugh.

I shouldn’t have been surprised though, for even though I am single, I have read many comp marriage materials. This just makes me ache all the more for the teens and pre-teens in my extended family and life.

Comment by Amanda

March 30, 2010 @ 8:13 pm

My favourite Christian dating book is not really a dating book per se: it is Equal to the Task, by Ruth Haley Barton, and it works as a book about any kind of relationship (marriage, dating, friendship, colleague). It is just a really solid book about the challenges of men and women in partnership in the world. If the ideas in it are fully taken on board, many dating relationships would be improved.

Comment by Don

March 30, 2010 @ 8:21 pm

I liked “Boundaries in Dating” by Cloud and Townsend. I do not think it was egal or non-egal in outlook, but gave lots of good ideas and also gave info on why they did not think “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” was such a good idea.

Comment by Nicole

March 30, 2010 @ 9:10 pm

Boundaries in Dating by Drs. Cloud and Townsend
Safe People by Dr. Cloud

I cannot recommend these two books enough. They help show what healthy behaviors are and how to avoid those that are dangerous (manipulation, domination, passive-aggressive, etc.). Both helped me just have better relationships in general.

Comment by Shawna R. B. Atteberry

March 30, 2010 @ 10:34 pm

As a strong, aggressive woman with a call to pastor, I never found much use for dating books. I remember picking up a couple then tossing them aside. As soon as I hit the “don’t out-do him in anything and always pretend he’s smarter” tripe handed to the woman the book was gone. When I found out the literal translation of ezer cenegdo (normally mistranslated as helpmate) was a “power equal to,” and realized I was looking for a man I was a power equal to, I knew no evangelical books on dating would be any help.

Someone mentioned Real Sex above. I did read that after My Hubby and I started dating. It is an excellent theology of sexuality, and she’s one of the few people who covers platonic expressions of love too. It must be the only dating book I actually finished and still have. The thing I really loved was that Lauren admitted to her sexual past and how hard it is to be celibate. I have the same background. It was refreshing to hear that a woman wasn’t “used goods” because she wasn’t a virgin and no man would want her. I lived with that guilt for years, and now I mourn all the years I spent loathing myself for a stupid decision made so many years ago (I had been celibate for 15 years when I married, and my husband was a virgin who never considered me to be “used goods”).

Wow. This comment became much longer than I intended it to. I guess the bottom line is: Real Sex is the only dating book I can recommend because it’s the only dating book I finished.

Comment by Alison

March 31, 2010 @ 6:56 am

I second (or third, whatever it is) the recommendations of Real Sex and Boundaries in Dating. My other fave (when the sex question in particular arises) is Rob Bell’s Sex God. Not a dating book per se, his perspective brings something useful to the table: the connection between sex and spirituality, something woefully short in a lot of the Christian “dating” books, which instill unhealthy fear of sex, even that in marriage. Not a dating book, but useful in considering marriage, and taking a longer view toward dating.

Comment by Corinne

March 31, 2010 @ 6:54 pm

I have heard a great many recommendations for the book Real Sex here and elsewhere, but having read it recently, I have to say I was disappointed. I found the author’s perspective on chastity, and Christian life in general, to be exceptionally legalistic. She notes in the book that she comes from a Jewish background, so maybe this is part of the reason, but she places enormous emphasis on ritual, tradition, and routine, as well as the importance of falling in line with the expectations of the church community. I came away from reading it feeling a bit deflated about the topics of love and sex. Just my personal opinion. Her writing does fall much more in line with an egalitarian perspective than most books on the topic, however.

Comment by Corinne

March 31, 2010 @ 7:05 pm

On a side note, this discussion of “Christian dating” has me wondering about the idea of how much is up to us when it comes to choosing a spouse/remaining single, from a Christian perspective. For example, some people truly believe that God chooses the right person for them if they simply have patience and wait on God to bring it about. The idea of dating in general tends to negate this idea, however. It would seem that it’s up to each of us individually to find/choose the person we want to marry. Any thoughts?

Comment by Liz

March 31, 2010 @ 9:01 pm

Hi Corinne….you might like to check my comment on “Biblical Principles for a Cultural Practice” where I suggested that maybe we can come at this from the wrong angle .

If we believe that God guides our way and we pray about our life’s direction then surely God can lead and direct us to the partner of his choice if he has one for us.

So much of the whole ‘dating’ scene is about who does what and particularly the thought of the guy “asking the girl to marry him” That whole way of thinking just reinforces the idea of the guy taking initiative and the girl accepting and joining him rather than two whole persons knowing God’s leading them together. Even those of us who have egalitarian beliefs can be subtly influenced by the world around us and of course our family of origin etc.

I’m speaking from personal experience in the way we felt God led us together and how we went from being two Christians writing to each other (Trevor was in the Navy and I wrote to him for encouragement in his Christian life as he was isolated in his beliefs) After some months of writing I suggested that perhaps we should stop writing as I was beginning to have strong feeling towards him and that if there was no reciprocating feelings from him, then it was not healthy for 2 adults to keep writing so constantly.

His reply was that he only saw me as a Christian sister BUT didn’t want to stop writing. The next letter, he said that without realising it he had become drawn to me and that he couldn’t imagine not having me in his life. That was 44 years ago and through all our married life it has been marvellous to know that it was God who brought us together and that he would see us through the years.

So, we didn’t ‘date’ as such and were in fact engaged before we so much as held hands since he was away at the time. However….and we cringe at this now……
when we were together for the first time after becoming engaged, he did actually ‘propose’ which now seems totally unnecessary but back then we hadn’t thought things through.

Comment by Deborah

March 31, 2010 @ 9:03 pm

Cool story, Liz!

Comment by Robyn

April 1, 2010 @ 8:32 pm

Not a dating book,but for parents of girls, Growing Strong Daughters by Lisa Graham McGinn is an excellent book with a chapter on how to teach girls to have healthy relationships with the opposite sex.

My husband and I read For Men Only and For Women Only by the Feldhahns and just laughed because we thought the contents were so ridiculous.

Comment by Corinne

April 2, 2010 @ 2:54 am

Hi Liz, thanks for your response. I tend to agree with you that Christians can approach this topic from the wrong direction. I find books like “Datable” and “For Young Women Only” disturbing because of all the focus they place on altering one’s self in order to become more attractive to the opposite sex. In “For Young Women Only,” Feldhahn makes a comment about how teen girls who are slightly overweight wonder why they have trouble finding a boyfriend. Aside from the general shallowness of that type of thinking, it also suggests that it is up to a woman to become what a man wants her to be, then go out and find a man for herself. It completely takes God out of the equation the way I see it.

I do agree with you, however, that the topic of dating does need to be addressed with respect to the way women and men are taught to interact with one another. There’s no reason a woman should have to feel “unfeminine” because she takes the initiative and asks a man out. I know a lot of women who would feel that doing so would be an unfeminine display of assertiveness. It really is interesting, though, to note the differences in the ways men and women interact in a church environment as opposed to a secular environment. I currently attend a public (hence, non-Christian) university, and so many of these male-female issues I’m confronted with in the church are non-issues in my school environment. I can’t imagine one of my fellow female students feeling ashamed or uncomfortable about showing interest in a man. Yet, in a church environment, the women are so immersed in the “Mars/Venus” ideology that many are convinced that it’s actually unbiblical to take the lead in a dating situation.

Comment by Faith

April 3, 2010 @ 8:24 pm

the best book on dating is the book, Boundaries in Dating by Cloud and Townsend. I have used this with girls and found that it teaches healthy dating with attention to moral boundaries and developing a healthy sense of self in relation to others.

Comment by Jason Eden

April 6, 2010 @ 4:59 pm

I’ve found Gary Thomas’ Sacred Marriage a helpful resource for relationships. He does include some stereotypes (i.e. men love action movies, women love romantic comedies) but, for the most part, they do not weaken or affect his core point.

The idea that relationships exist to build our character and mature us spiritually (rather than to make us “happy”) is profound and important. It redirects our whole perspective from one of selfish ambition to personal growth. I reiterate that I do not endorse all of his ideas but, read carefully, the book is worthwhile and better than many on the market.

Maybe someone needs to sit down and write an egalitarian dating/marriage book for us??

Comment by Liz

April 6, 2010 @ 5:58 pm

Hi Jason

There are already some great books on marriage which are sold by CBE.
One we always give to couples, some prior to marriage and it’s title is
“Heirs Together” by Pat Gundry. A small book which covers heaps and is so readable.

Another one is “Real Life Marriage” (it’s not about me) which was written by Tim & Anne Evans which explores spirit oneness, soul oneness and body oneness .

Just remembered Bill & Lynne Hybels’ one too, “Fit to be Tied” which covers pre-marriage discussions and includes lots of personal anecdotes.

Seems like there are good books for those seriously considering marriage, but not so many re dating, particularly for younger people.

Comment by Deborah

April 6, 2010 @ 7:12 pm

Jason,

I’ve given Thomas’ book to friends before they’ve married too. One couple said it saved their marriage. So I’ve also found it valuable.

But I pretty much only give it when I know the couple at hand will be absolutely closed to non-hierarchical considerations any time soon (as you mention, there is moderate reinforcement of complementarian ideas within, and his other books are more overtly complementarian). Also, I only give it with many caveats to couples who do not envision a somewhat traditional work/child-rearing breakdown or couples where the wife is not hyper-gentle-and-emo b/c his wife happens to be a very stereotypical woman. Moreowever, if they are not pursuing traditional work/home breakdowns, they will probably be more open to alternative theology than other couples anyhow, so I might give them Sarah Sumner’s marriage book which is borderline egalitarian in a non-threatening way and is certainly geared toward non-traditional gender roles. And I generally do NOT give it when I know there is already an abusive situation at hand or sense control issues(there is a HUGE problem with telling a person in that situation to endlessly bend and bend as his book would suggest). I do appreciate that he is at least suggesting it is *ideal* for both parties to bend and that he is focused on commitment. Back when I thought I had to marry this abusive pastor-dude I was relieved to find a book that suggested that to ANY degree for the guy… it was a ray of hope before I knew that I knew that I was both released from that bizarre situation and could truly embrace egalitarian theology. Also the image of the two angels over the ark at the end is beautiful. :)

my 2,

Deb

Comment by Eleanor

April 8, 2010 @ 9:08 pm

“I currently attend a public (hence, non-Christian) university, and so many of these male-female issues I’m confronted with in the church are non-issues in my school environment.”

I also encountered this. It is possible to have respectful, mutually encouraging, healthy (if not God-based) relationships without the guilt and questioning of whether or not we are fulfilling our gender roles correctly.

I enjoyed “Every Woman’s Battle” for a practical look at what it takes to be in a relationship, giving everything you have for the glory of God and to strengthen the relationship. The dating books weren’t doing a lot for me, but this provided practices and ways of thinking that can be applied whether I’m single or married.

As for specific criteria, I think it is important for the book to focus on God, and our relationship with God, as the most significant thing in our lives, and the thing toward which every other effort should contribute. It should present high standards for each person in the relationship, and take a “big picture” approach, i.e. if you don’t get married, your life isn’t over. :)

Comment by Brandon

April 9, 2010 @ 9:39 am

For those moving in the direction of marriage Intimate Mystery by Longman/Allander is at the top of my list

Comment by Ashleigh

April 13, 2010 @ 3:15 pm

Negative gender ideas I see in dating books: One of the things that irks me the most when reading Christian books on relationships (whatever stage they’re in) is the way women’s sexuality is made invisible. This is an elaboration on the original post’s mention of “an overemphasis on differences between men and women,” I suppose, but this particular manifestation is something I see frequently in evangelical churches and publications. Men are supposedly the only ones to wrestle with sexual desires before marriage and men are the ones to whom sex matters afterwards. Women are taught it’s their job to do whatever is necessary to take care of male sexuality–either taking responsibility for what is labeled lust on his part or making certain his needs are met after marriage. There is rarely a discussion of women’s sexual desire or needs, but rather, it’s said that women need hugs, emotional support, etc.

One of the things I really wish for Christian dating books is that they accepted that individual couples vary a lot in this respect. It would not only acknowledge women’s frustrations and temptations (whether in a dating relationship or porn addiction or something else), it would help prevent making men with less sexual desire feel like something’s “wrong” with them.

Criteria for egalitarian relationship books:
-I think either not mentioning the submission question or discussing it from an egalitarian perspective is fine, depending on the intended purpose and audience of the books.
-Mention of gender differences or dynamics are research-based (rather than just someone’s opinion). Any discussion of gender understands both the social (and biological forces) that form us, as well as the obvious reality of diversity among men/women–leaves room for individuals to be who they are rather than fit a box.
-Encourages mutual responsibility for the relationship, as well as other tasks (chores, childcare, etc. after marriage). Assumes both parties will have to make sacrifices for the relationship at points (ex: not advancing quite as far in your career so your spouse can have a career too, etc.). While some of these issues don’t come up until after marriage, I think a good dating book lays the foundation to approaching your relationship this way.
-Encourages a healthy understanding of sexuality from a Christian perspective.

Comment by LKH

April 17, 2010 @ 12:43 am

A few books I recommend:

10 Great Dates Before You Say I Do by Arp and Brown (some gender stereotyping, but most of the book is intended for the couple to learn about each other b/c they make the decision to marry and it focuses a lot on gifts)

Not Your Parents’ Marriage: Bold Partnership for the Next Generation by Daley (we got this from the CBE store and it’s amazing)

Getting Your Sex Life Off to a Great Start by Penner (there is one small section on men from mars, women from venus, but it’s very out of line with the rest of the book. It’s intended for engaged and newlywed couples, including discussion questions. It’s very thorough.)

The Four Loves by C.S. Lewis (Not on dating, but one my now husband and I read early in our dating relationship. It allowed great conversations about love and relationships.)

Comment by Michelle

April 19, 2010 @ 12:46 pm

“I currently attend a public (hence, non-Christian) university, and so many of these male-female issues I’m confronted with in the church are non-issues in my school environment.”

I also encountered this. It is possible to have respectful, mutually encouraging, healthy (if not God-based) relationships without the guilt and questioning of whether or not we are fulfilling our gender roles correctly.

I enjoyed “Every Woman’s Battle” for a practical look at what it takes to be in a relationship, giving everything you have for the glory of God and to strengthen the relationship. The dating books weren’t doing a lot for me, but this provided practices and ways of thinking that can be applied whether I’m single or married.

As for specific criteria, I think it is important for the book to focus on God, and our relationship with God, as the most significant thing in our lives, and the thing toward which every other effort should contribute. It should present high standards for each person in the relationship, and take a “big picture” approach, i.e. if you don’t get married, your life isn’t over. :)