The CBE Scroll

Comment by Deborah

April 11, 2010 @ 12:13 pm

Before I get to your questions (a) I liked your article, and (b) I would be curious to see your vows if you care to share them. I often ponder what I might like to say if/when I get married, as I think that would be the core departure for me.

Proposal–For reasons I won’t get into here, the way I nuance male/female relationships doesn’t make it hierarchal or bad for a man to generally do the “big-step” moves, but nor does it make it bad for a woman to bring it up. My 2.

Parents–The reality is that this is going to be an important way for most couples to make peace and establish comfort w/ the family… something most will want to follow in the forseeable future, I think. However, I think there are some things that can be done. (a) One might, depending on the freedom in the dynamics, ask to speak to both the mother and the father. I think one of the reasons that this habit has held on is because the woman is the more vulnerable party and is likely to be financially dependent during some portion of the marriage as she is likely to stay home at least for a brief while with children. So there are some practical points that many father’s assess. Nonetheless, (b) I think a couple might extend this to the man’s parents as an act of mutuality, asking their approval and blessing prior to the actual marriage. Keep in mind that sociologists find it very important for families to assess and aprove of the relationship if it is to be successful. Although there are exceptions, usually their lack of involvement or lack of approval is a very bad indicator. And this is as much true on the man’s side as the woman’s. For this reason, the mutuality (talking to both sets of parents) might be real wisdom. A woman might talk to the man’s parents in private when she suspects (or knows via their conversations) that they are nearing this point. In healthier families, this is also an opportunity to get some good input on the strengths and weaknesses of the relationship (although in some controlling or otherwise unhealthy families, this will be a time you may want to keep surface-y).

The Ring–I think that is a nice idea. Actually, for me I have VERY expensive tastes in engagement rings. I really wouldn’t even want to wear one I wasn’t crazy about. So depending on finances and where it makes sense to be putting those, I might just as soon not have an engagement ring or have one that is a “different” sort of ring and not really made to be worn after marriage with the wedding band. The ring in itself can be a huge burden on the man and not the most sensible thing for getting off on the right financial foot. Just ask married couples how much a little less debt stress might have benefitted their marriage….

Comment by Deborah

April 11, 2010 @ 12:18 pm

Back to the parent bit. She could optionally ask them shortly after engagement. Also when she asks (or they together ask) his parents, it might be worded differently in deference to cultural norms assuming she is not planning to propose. If during dating, it might be more like, “If we were to get married, how would you feel about that? What are your concerns?”

Comment by Moara

April 12, 2010 @ 2:04 am

I think the couple should go to both sets of parents for approval and blessing after they have decided to get married.

I don’t think I’d miss a traditional proposal, and would much prefer to decide on marriage as a couple.

Regarding rings, my parents both wore their future wedding rings on the ring finger of their right hand. It’s a symbol of committment, but you don’t get immediately branded as a bride, which I suppose could be a good and a bad thing.

Two things that really irk me about traditional weddings are the veils (in many christian circles, they’ve come to mean a symbol of the man’s authority over his wife) and the father escorting the bride down the aisle. To me that smacks of being handed from one man to another. I’ve been living independantly for years now, and I’m very grateful to my parents for raising me to be able to do that.

Comment by Elizabeth

April 12, 2010 @ 4:40 am

Great article, Anna.

I’ve noticed that you’ve taken your husband’s name (!), do you think this is part of tradition of hierarchy in marriage relationships?

Re walking down aisle, I heard of a couple who walked down together, singing, and then got both sets of parents to stand when asked ‘do the parents of this couple bless this marriage?’ early in the marriage liturgy.

What about the bride wearing white and not the husband? I think if I get married I’d like him to wear white to symbolise his virginity/purity too.

The thing that annoys me most about wedding ceremonies is how the guys stand up the front, waiting for the ladies to join them. To me it makes it seem like the guys are complete in themselves and the women are a pretty addition to their lives.

Comment by Anna

April 12, 2010 @ 5:29 am

Several of the issues raised by comments right now are actually addressed in the article in Mutuality…

Moara – I did wear a veil, but not one that covered my face. I just liked the look of it over my hair and on my back :) And for the bride being escorted by her father to be handed off…both of Ryan’s parent’s escorted him down the aisle and both of my parents escorted me down the aisle. There was no “giving away”, but rather honoring all of our parents for their roles in our lives as well as the demonstration of their blessing over our marriage.

Elizabeth – yes, I did take Ryan’s name, but mostly because we didn’t know any other options at that time. Even now I’m not sure what we would do. For our processional the groomsmen walked in together with the bridesmaids so there was no guys standing around waiting :)

Comment by Ryan

April 12, 2010 @ 6:56 am

Deborah,

Below I have included our declaration and vows. The wording was the same for both of us, except for the obvious changing of names, personal pronouns, etc.

We wrote them together. They are, by leaps and bounds, the most meaningful words I have ever taken part in writing.

Declaration

Ryan, do you take Anna to be your wife, to live together according to God’s direction in the holy relationship of marriage? Do you promise to love her as a person, respect her as an equal, submit yourself to her as is fitting in the Lord, and, forsaking all others, keep yourself only for her as long as you both shall live? If so, say “I Do.”

Vows
I, Anna,
take you, Ryan,
to be my husband.
I promise to honor and cherish you,
Protect and comfort you,
In joy and in sorrow.
With all my love and faithfulness,
I commit my heart and soul to you.
To have and to hold
from this day forward
to grow old by your side
as your love and your best friend.

Comment by Lionel Woods

April 12, 2010 @ 8:18 am

This is a great discussion. Wow! If we begin with mutuality then we may have more respect for one another and more realistic expectations. What is really interesting is the woman waiting by anxiously hoping he “proposes” so they can move forward, it makes her look desperate and only perpetuates the woman as vicitim mentality.

Comment by PSanafterthought

April 12, 2010 @ 8:26 am

Interesting discussion. I got married in 1973. There was no asking of my mom by my husband to be. But my mom walked me down the aisle. Dad had died the year before. I was very surprised when my daughter’s boyfriend asked my husband and I felt left out. But both sets of parents were in the wedding, walking the bride/groom down the aisle and also serving communion. My son asked his wife-to-be’s parents, both of them together. That asking seems a bit retro to me, but apparently it is the in thing these days. But in the wedding, the guys and gals walked in in pairs. So I guess, each couple works out what works for them.

Comment by Robyn

April 12, 2010 @ 8:36 am

My husband, wanting to do things “right,” spoke to my father about marrying me. My mother was VERY offended not to be included in the conversation. And I was a little irked. I think that, when speaking to parents about the possibility of marriage, both the man and the woman should be involved in speaking to BOTH parents, assuming both parents are alive and married to one another. Also, the word “permission” should never be used. Rather, I like the terms “blessing” or “approval.”

By the time someone proposes, the couple has usually discussed marriage many times. It’s rarely a surprise that they want to marry. Most men want to know that the answer is going to be “yes” before asking the question, I think. The act of a proposal isn’t usually necessary, in my experience, except as a cultural expectation.

Comment by Jonathan

April 12, 2010 @ 11:35 am

Great set of questions. I have witnessed a great variety of wedding norms world wide and have to say that ours are ours. That is to say the idea of the woman taking her husband’s name is very western but it is also practiced by many eastern societies as well. In southern India some communities have the woman (and all children) take the father’s first name. So you would be Anna Ryan for instance.

The proposal: again from Indian culture, the boy’s family and the girl’s family get together (sometimes without the kids) and compare something like a resume of the kids to be considered. They then come to some agreement about them being suitable and “a good match” for each other. Then the two are introduced and allowed to talk for 15-20 minutes. Then a decision by the boy and girl is made. If they both agree then the arrangements for the engagement take place. It is quite involved. Basically both families are invested heavily in getting the marriage to succeed.

I hope that my kids will take some of the aspects of each culture and make something unique and their own.

Comment by Deborah

April 12, 2010 @ 11:58 am

I’m loving everyone’s thoughts on this.

And thank you for sharing your vows, Ryan! I tend to come up with long-winded stuff in my head. These are short and beautiful. :)

Comment by Jennifer

April 12, 2010 @ 12:03 pm

I have a question about the western idea of the wife taking the husband’s last name. Has anyone heard of a good discussion of how to name the children if the woman decides to keep her last name instead of taking the husband’s name? I don’t see anything wrong with the woman keeping her last name, but how do we move away from the patriarchal idea of naming everyone in the family with the husband’s last name yet still have some practical way in which to name the children? I’ve heard of hyphenation of course, but what if two people with hyphenated names get married? Do their children then have 4 hyphenated last names? I’m just curious if there is any practical way to resolve this.

Comment by Liz

April 12, 2010 @ 5:41 pm

Hi Jennifer

Way back in Sep ’07 there was a post entitled “I didn’t change my name” and there were 116 comments. I’m sure there are comments to that about children’s names
The person who wrote that post and her husband eventually decided to hyphenate their last names and have since had a daughter.

Just look under archives and for the month in ’07

Comment by Trevor

April 12, 2010 @ 7:47 pm

This topic has generated quite a bit of discussion between Liz and I because, knowing what we know now we would have done things quite differently. We ask ourselves why we didn’t then, but the truth is we were just discovering the whole equality thing, I’m talking 44 years ago. For example, both of us were mature, independent people but I still asked Liz’s Dad, in the traditional way, for her hand in marriage. It seems ludicrous now, and even the way I (Trevor) went about it seems pretty trite, but that is how it was done back then.

We got married interstate, apart from both sets of parents, so we were able to plan our wedding independently and neither sets of parents were expected to pay for any of the wedding arrangements, or to even be there. As it turned out my mother came and was exceedingly happy to be a part of our celebration.

My being in the Australian Navy at the time required that we arrange the wedding quite quickly and spontaneously. Our adopted church family was of considerable assistance and the couple Liz boarded with became her de facto parents on the day. It was basically an ‘in house’ Christian celebration. Our biggest break with tradition was that we were with each other and obviously saw each other to within an hour of the actual ceremony. The reason being that we were still busily pulling together last minute things because we planned the whole wedding and our ‘newly wed’ housing arrangements with 6 weeks notice.

We would have loved to have written out more meaningful vows for one another but it just didn’t come up. We were just so happy at the prospect of not having to go home and leave one another any more, that after our wedding day we would be together and never have to go to separate homes again. My mother stayed with us the night after we were married and could not believe that we had only just been married. Her comment was that we seemed to be so well adjusted to one another already that it seemed as if we had been married for years! So it was certainly a different experience for her.

Having assisted others, over 35 years of ministry, to prepare for marriage and give greater consideration to what they actually stated to one another etc. on the day, yes, we ourselves would like to have been more thoughtful and explored fully the possibilities as Anna and Ryan have done.

One thing that Liz and I did do when our youngest son was married was share the traditional father of the groom speech. It was a first, for us and many others present, and set quite a precedent. We wrote out the speech together, stood together on the day and read a portion each progressively. It made quite an impression at the time and we believe set up our son and daughter-in-law for a truly egalitarian marriage.

Comment by Ashleigh

April 13, 2010 @ 3:04 am

I just got married in December, and besides a non-traditional wedding, we did many other things non-traditionally.

The Proposal: Jeremiah wanted to have the fun of proposing. At first I opposed this because it felt “unequal,” but since it meant a lot to him, I let him keep this tradition. (It did end up being something special/fun for us.) We did, however, talk about marriage a lot before this. Really, there was no magical point at which we knew we were getting married. We started talking about marriage no later than around our 1-month anniversary, and those conversations just gradually became more frequent. They also gradually became less theoretical and more concrete. We really were close to being engaged for a month, probably, before it was official to everyone else, and at least two weeks where we were starting to plan our wedding before the proposal (which occurred just after we’d been dating 4 months). It was definitely a discernment process and decision that we participated in equally.

Parental Support: Because my my parents are divorced and I don’t have a good relationship with my dad, Jeremiah had no concern whatsoever with receiving my dad’s approval. We felt permission, and even blessing, felt outdated to us, so neither of us spoke with each other’s parents about marriage. Instead, we informally kept my mom and grandmother and his mom and dad informed about the progress of our relationship. I did let them know a couple months into things that it was “getting serious,” and during the month before we got engaged, we had an opportunity to visit both of our families (who live in other states). After that we still didn’t formally seek approval, but we did, of course, want to know what each other’s families (and best friends from high school/college!) thought about our new significant other.

The Engagement Ring: I don’t remember when I decided I didn’t want an engagement ring, but I can’t remember a time I didn’t feel that way. (It was probably sometime during late high school or early college.) I felt it was sort of a waste of money (gosh, I could spend that on books or a vacation or something else fun!), as well as a weird tradition for a feminist to practice. I have friends who are also self-identified egalitarians and/or feminists who have engagement rings, so I understand this is a thing that differs from person to person. However, I just didn’t want one. We just each wear a wedding band. Our wedding bands are a bit fancier than some (a Celtic design with tiny diamonds), and I have no good explanation for why I was willing to spend money on one ring and not another… But part of it, I think, is due for how frustrated I get by women’s desire to see the size/sparkle of each others’ engagement rings. (People don’t really compare wedding rings much–they’re more personal.) I not only wanted to avoid spending money on something I didn’t need (I’m not a big jewellery person) or a tradition that treated men/women differently, I didn’t want to be a participant in the typical game of mutual ring admiration.

And on last names (to Jennifer): One potential idea for people who already have hyphenated last names is to take one name from each. Perhaps the man might keep his father’s last name and the wife her mother’s? These could be combined into another two-name pair. (Jamal Dad1-Mom1 and Michelle Mom2-Dad2 could become Jamal and Michelle Dad1-Mom2, for example.) Names could also be chosen from the original pairs based on how they sound together (Jamal and Michelle Mom1-Mom2, perhaps). There are many creative ways to go about the process! (I thought of many of these options before marriage. It ended up that both of us only had one name, he really wanted to keep his, and I didn’t care to keep mine… so I surprised myself and took his name! It’s important to be flexible and do what’s right for you as a couple, not just what it seems a good egalitarian should do.)

Comment by Ryan & Anna

April 13, 2010 @ 7:03 am

If Anna & I were getting married again, we would treat the parental support issue differently.

First, we would ask for their advice and/or feedback, not their permission or blessing. Because we both have good relationships with our families (and because they have known us longer than anyone else), I would want to hear what they thought about our decision. I would not, however, need their permission or approval before going through with our wedding. Anna & I were both adults and capable of making that decision on our own. We trust our families, and would certainly take what they had to say into account, but the decision would have been ours alone.

Second, both of us would be involved. The tradition that says only the man should be involved in the conversation seems odd to me. Anna is surely as capable as I am to make the decision whether to get married and it affects her life just as much as mine. If we wanted to get feedback from our families, it would profit both of us to hear it.

Third, we would talk to my parents, as well as hers. In our particular setting, my parents are just as well-suited to giving us useful as advice as her parents are. And we would want to honor both of them in that way.

So, both of us would meet with both of our sets of parents, and ask them for their feedback on our relationship and decision to get married. We would take what they had to say into account, and then proceed to do what we thought best.

Now, I don’t believe that process would fit everyone. For a variety of reasons, someone may not want their parents’ advice and I see nothing wrong with that. Nor do I think these conversations need to happen prior to a couple getting engaged. The decision to include one’s parents at this stage of the relationship should not be subject to a hard-and-fast rule, but should be the result of a couple’s careful efforts to make their relationship as good as possible.

As best I can tell, that would be one way a couple could honor their parents and strengthen their relationship in an egalitarian manner.

Comment by Liz

April 13, 2010 @ 8:37 am

It makes sense to want that your parents (all four of them if still living) to be happy with your choices, and if they are Christians and praying people then any ‘wiggles’ should be at least heard. However…as has been said, our adult children have the right to make their own decisions and parents should support them no matter what.

We always have told couples that the wedding is ‘their day’ and they should do and have what will be most meaningful to them. This doesn’t mean being rude or inconsiderate to parents, siblings and relatives, but they should have the last word. Of course….it often means that the couple may need to pay for everything if there is disagreement – can’t expect parents to pay for things they don’t agree with. Each family situation will be unique and planning a wedding is a great way to practise mutual submission.

Comment by pam

April 13, 2010 @ 7:37 pm

13 years ago when we got married, my husband and I were not aware of either the complementarian ideology nor egalitarian ideology — we simply made common sense decisions about our relationship and ourselves without any real analysis beyond what seemed obvious. The only issue that concerned us was that we knew we were very compatible, were each other’s best friend, and were in love. We simply decided together that we wanted to formalize it by getting married. Not long after that we took my parents out to dinner to tell them of our decision. My husband’s parents live in England so a special phone call to them was done instead. It was the most simple and natural process. There was no ideological sieve to press it through (or to complicate it).

The only “egalitarian-esque” thing I made sure of was that we be introduced, at the end of our wedding ceremony, by both of our names, rather than “Mr. and Mrs. [husband's name]“. I didn’t want my identity which I’d had for 29 years to suddenly be swallowed up by my husband’s identity.

Sometimes I think we can overanalyze something to death and end up making ourselves no longer able to see the plain and simple truth of a matter.

Comment by Mary Ann

April 13, 2010 @ 8:17 pm

I appreciated your article in the latest Mutuality. If we were to re-do our wedding, I think we’d do it differently. At that time, we were still complementarians, so we had a pretty traditional wedding – except for the announcement at the end, where I repeatedly had to ask the officiant beforehand to make sure he would say both of our names, instead of just Mr & Mrs Husband’s name. (That has always irked me — when a couple is addressed by just the man’s name.)

Speaking of the officiant, if we were to do our wedding now, I would love it if we had a husband-wife couple instead of just a male ‘authority-figure’. We are now at an egalitarian church with a male-female co-pastoring leadership, and so it would work perfectly. I wish we had that then.

I really liked that idea mentioned in one of the comments of the couple going down the aisle together! Wow, that WOULD be pretty awesome. Of course, I would still want a way of honoring our parents for raising us. It would be neat if the parents could go down the aisle together as couples before the bride & groom do.

Deciding on getting married, though, was something we did together. I knew the ring was coming, no surprise. If we were to get married now, however, I would definitely want to give him a gift for our engagement. The watch is a great idea!

We transitioned into egalitarians a year after we got married. During that first year, I never changed my last name, because I think I’ve always secretly been a feminist (!)… :) We ended up hyphenating our names not too long ago, because we felt that this would best represent both of us. Our daughter also has our hyphenated surname. I’m a little bit concerned for her, however, because I don’t know what the sensible thing would be for her in the future when she gets married. However, I know it’s not going to be our decision, but hers. I hope she has fun with it with her future husband! :)

Comment by Ryan

April 16, 2010 @ 8:55 am

Of all the traditions mentioned in the article, post, and comments, the one I have the hardest time seeing change in a wide-spread way is the proposal.

It seems to me that many female Christians are being taught not to initiate by their churches and other para-church groups. Women are told they aren’t supposed to even ask a man out, much less propose.

Even in our egalitarian relationship, I think Anna & I have been exposed to these cultural expectations for so long that it is hard to imagine doing things differently. It wouldn’t have been wrong for her to propose, for example, but I don’t think we would have been quite comfortable with it. I imagine we aren’t alone in that.

We did, however, discuss marriage before the proposal. Both of us knew the proposal was going to happen, and we both knew what the answer would be. I think if I could do that over again, though, I would be even more explicit about it. I would ask what her thoughts on proposals were…whether she wanted me to propose, or for her to propose, or for neither of us to propose, opting instead to enter engagement by mutual agreement. We probably would have still done a proposal, but I think I would have honored Anna more by talking to her about it more directly.

I think encouraging men to take those steps would be a good way of reinforcing egalitarian ideals. A lot of my friends, even those who are complementarian, would probably be open to discussing proposals with their significant others. Few, it seems, really value surprise so much that they don’t even want to discuss the subject beforehand. And even if they wind up doing things in the traditional way (as we did), I think its still better that the discussion happened first.

Comment by Liz

April 16, 2010 @ 6:27 pm

Yes, it seems a strange thing for anyone to particularly ask for someone’s ‘hand’ in marriage. Whether it’s the more traditional way with the man or even with the woman, what about both asking God and seeing what he has to say. Surely God should have the last word. They both could say ‘it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us’ as is quoted in the new testament when a decision had to be made.

The whole proposal business goes along with ‘giving away’ – it’s still mostly about the woman being passed on from father to husband and for the guy to choose the girl – all she has to do is accept or not.

Comment by Donald Guffey

April 17, 2010 @ 10:35 am

I must say that this article is one that I’m proud to break my little vacation from writing on. This topic of an egalitarian wedding has been something I have pondered for along time. I love how Anna and Ryan have split the article down into different points so it will be easier for me to organize my thoughts ( me and my ADHD thank you for this ^_^ ) So here I go:

Engagement: This is to me is the trial run for a marriage so if your marriage is going to be egal then you need to set that precedent from the get go. So when it comes to the proposal Ideally I think that the decision to get married should be one that is made after mutual discussion on the topic IE you both decide its the right thing to do and then move forward with the arrangements. As for rings I think a good egal solution would be for both parties to go ahead and pick out the wedding band set with the man paying for the womans and the woman paying for the man’s and then just wearing the wedding bands on the opposite hand until they are married and then place them on the proper hand ( I cant recall which hand is for engagement or which one is for marriage). This way both are wearing symbols of their commitment to each other.

Talking to parents: I agree with what seems to be the overall opinion that parental permission is out dated and unnecessary, However unless you plan on living far far away from your inlaws you may at least ask their blessing ^_^.

Since I already spoke about engagement rings I’d like to share my thoughts on an egal wedding ceremony.

I believe that the parents should walk in together and be honored in the ceremony. I also think it would be nice as another blogger said that both the man and women wear white to symbolize their purity that they are giving to one another, I personally am a fan of a kind of jewish style motif wear the woman wears a white dress and the man wears this sort of white linen tunic and white linen pants ( Much more comfortable than a tux I’m sure!) Also when the ceremony begins I think it would be nice if the bride and groom were to enter from the front of the building join their respective parents who will then escort each one on a separate side aisle where the bride and groom will join hands when they meet in the middle aisle and walk up the aisle together. I think this is a beautiful symbol of husband and wife leaving their parents and cleaving to one another.

I think the vows should be said with egal language ( I personally loved ryan and anna’s vows)

at the end I think the pastor instead of saying you may kiss the bride say something like ” Now seal the covenant you have made with one another with a kiss” and finally announcing them by their individual names.

Just some thoughts I had hope I didn’t ramble on to much. ^_^

Comment by Jessica

April 17, 2010 @ 5:08 pm

My husband and I were very young when we got married and though we didn’t consider ourselves egalitarian at the time we took several steps to equalize our relationship. We were in a very conservative, patriarchal Christian college setting at the time of our dating and engagement, I have often wondered how it would have been different in a more egalitarian setting.

Proposal/Engagement Rings: We decided together to get married. There were many conversations about how we would want a marriage to be. In the conversations that unfolded we realized we were talking about our future together. I’m pretty sure I was the one to bring the idea of our getting married up for consideration. However, even though we were already certain we were getting married, we did follow a more traditional engagement proposal but that was merely a formality that I think we felt pressured into by the community of our school. I wish we had done a ring for him but we had a difficult enough time finding one we liked in time for our wedding.

Talking to the parents: Early into our dating we both wrote letters to the other’s parents asking questions, sharing information and just trying to honor them in our relationship. When we began discussing our marriage we agreed to again write our parents. Neither of us asked permission of our parents, just for their blessing. We also asked if they had any concerns regarding our relationship (boy, did they!) so we could consider those issues ourselves and seek their counsel. In the end, both sets gave their blessing but hoped we would wait. We didn’t.

We did some similar elements in our ceremony as Anna and Ryan, you had in yours. His parents walked in and stood with him, my parents both walked me down the aisle, both sets together lit the candles, the bridesmaids and groomsmen processed in, we wrote our own coordinating vows, and we were pronounced husband and wife as opposed to man and wife. Our decision to join our last names came long before we were engaged, in a conversation early in our days as “just friends” we both questioned the practice of the woman taking the man’s name. To us, if two become one, we thought it made more sense for the last name to reflect that mystery not to have one disappear into the other. We attempted to create a new name but couldn’t come up with anything that worked well so we decided to both hyphenate. We now have 5 daughters and all of them have our last name, hyphenated as well. Sometimes I wonder what they will do with it when they get married but we figure they will figure our how to best handle that according to their own convictions and relationship when the time comes. Already, they know why they have both of our last names and think it is pretty cool.

Truth be told, we didn’t know what egalitarian was, we just knew what seemed most true to ourselves. I wore a veil that didn’t cover my face, not as a head covering but as a head-dress and it was my mother’s veil. I didn’t wear white, I don’t like white and don’t look good in white. Turns out I look smashing in a rich creamy ivory color and a touch of champagne. We didn’t have a limo, just our car and I drove us away. Not to make a statement but because his license had expired. Though I had an engagement ring, I didn’t like it even though I had picked it out before he proposed, so we returned it. Instead, I wore my wedding band and to this day we both just have our wedding bands, no engagement rings.

Shortly after our marriage we were given the book “A Severe Mercy” by Sheldon Vanauken. That book profoundly impacted our marriage, helping us to become more intentional in making egalitarian choices.

Comment by Don

April 19, 2010 @ 10:51 am

My wife and I were married by an SBC pastor, who is the brother of my father in law. We requested to use symmetrical vows which we would write and he agreed. He also did my wife’s sister’s wedding and so we knew his default was not egalitarian.

I think it is very important for us to LIVE like egalitarians with any choices we make based on love and mutual submission. The actual choices are less important.

Comment by SHR

April 20, 2010 @ 4:42 pm

This is an interesting discussion. My husband and I were married last August. We had been speaking of the possibility of marriage for quite a while, and discussed things that we would want or wouldn’t want. He was the one who finally asked me though, but it sort of came up naturally as we were sitting on the couch talking. I picked the day, he picked the month. We chose the rings together. I bought him a ring made of a stone which I can’t recall the name of right now, which he wore as an “engagement ring” of sorts.It wasn’t expensive, but it meant something. He bought my wedding band and engagement ring set, and I bought his wedding band. We told my parents, and his siblings, but didn’t ask their permission.

We also discussed everything about the wedding together. I didn’t wear a veil, mostly because of the symbolism. We were married outside under an arbour in a park. I walked in from one side and he walked in from the other and we met in the middle and then walked out onto the grass together to meet the pastor. No one gave me away. My parents walked with me part of the way, and then hugged me, and they sat down and I continued on my own. My husband did the same thing with his older sister walking him part way.
I hadn’t thought of a husband and wife team doing the ceremony, but that would have been nice if we had known any. We wanted something of missions in our wedding, so we asked the pastor of a mission we volunteered at in the inner-city if she would do the ceremony. We don’t know any egal. pastors, but she was pretty good about accepting the way we wanted to do things, except that she threw in something about Adam falling into Eve’s trap in the sermon. That’s the one thing I’ve been thinking of editing out of the wedding video!
I hadn’t thought of having the groom wear white. My parents did that though. My dad wore white jeans, white guru shirt and sandals, and my mum wore a simple white dress.
We didn’t end up writing our own vows, but we had the same vows. We were introduced using both of our names and we hyphenated our names.

Sorry for rambling!

Comment by Deborah

April 20, 2010 @ 5:16 pm

I’m finding this discussion really interesting. I think Don sort of sums up my response–that there is no one right way to approach an egal ceremony and that what happens afterwards is more important. I was thinking last night about Lee Grady (a notable egal who is on CBE’s board) and his daughter’s recent wedding. He gave her away and did the father-daughter dance, etc. But they hyphenated their names. Another couple will decide to be more counter-cultural in the ceremony but might take the guy’s name. Etc. Different pieces of the puzzle have different emotional significance (b/c of or regardless of the cultural history of the tradition) to the couple at hand than they will for another. So what is sensible and non-hierarchal and respectful of the different personalities to one couple’s mind may be hugely different than the next couples’ aversion to the same symbolism/ideas I think.

Comment by Domingo M

April 21, 2010 @ 4:45 pm

Identifying the cultural roles Proposals, Parents and Purchases play in a Christian’s life as simply cultural, and thereby not in anyway required or mandated by scripture is an important first step.

Cultural norms are usually neutral when it comes to the Christian’s life but care should be taken that they do not become burdensome and infringe on the freedom (from such) that we get by being in Christ’s kingdom( Gal 5:1).

The bigger problem lies in how those who hold the more traditional view ascribe unto human males a higher station citing scripture as the source of this idolatrous position. It is hard to say which is worse, this or the verse dodging that is usually more prevalent with the countering liberal side.

Though the egalitarian position is correct we should find our answers in scripture and not outside it. We are Christians, remember? Only God can be elevated in our eyes. For example; when we become saved we are immediately married to Christ, we become the bride of Christ and we naturally are called after Him, we take His name. We become the children of God. In the physical realm, when Christians get married, while they can both agree that either one or both will change their names, neither can rightfully pressure the other one way or another.

There should never be any attempt to domineer, we are called to submit ourselves to each other.

Comment by Merrin

April 25, 2010 @ 7:29 am

After realising we were initially attracted to each other, Doug & I spent many “dates” discussing several very long Q&A “compatibility” studies. We purposefully contemplated many aspects of marriage guided by workbooks & websites. After those first few weeks together we set a date three months ahead where we would decide whether to move forward or not. That was actually really freeing. We decided that the 1st of each month checkpoint was good so we set a few more checkpoints and soon decided we definitely wanted to marry. We both spoke with our families together and they are continually supportive. We chose two engagement rings together & discussed the actual proposal as being a “surprise” for me & it certainly was! We will walk down the aisle together & exchange vows reflecting our mutuality beliefs. No veil, no father giving me away.

Comment by Liz

April 25, 2010 @ 9:33 am

Welcome Merrin and thank you for your story……..very encouraging

Comment by Deborah

April 26, 2010 @ 6:01 pm

It seems like the blog is being hacked or something. Posts are being repeated under names other than those of the original posters.

Comment by LMcC

April 27, 2010 @ 10:24 am

Deborah, I think you’re right. While it’s not unusual for a woman to use a husband’s account, several of the last few posts don’t look right. The links to all the names go to similar-looking bogus sites. The posts are in all likelihood authentic, but the names are definitely not.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it turns out a sexual hierarch is hacking names to make it look like CBE supports gay marriage, even though the official statement clearly says otherwise.

Comment by Deborah

April 27, 2010 @ 2:38 pm

Yeah, one of my own posts was just replicated here under the name Jeff.

Comment by SHR

April 27, 2010 @ 4:27 pm

Hey, yeah…my post was reposted by Rick, and it seems that Jessica’s was reposted under Sean. strange. Where are the moderators?

Comment by Deborah

April 27, 2010 @ 5:08 pm

Calling Liz…. Calling Trevor….

Comment by Kamilla

April 27, 2010 @ 5:38 pm

LMCC,

The frequency with which you and some of your religious feminist friends slander “sexual hierarchs” is nauseating.

Judging from the behaviour of homosexual activists and their sympathizers and the way they have attacked me and other patriarchlists — this looks more like their behaviour than the tactics of any patriarchalist I have ever known.

Kamilla

Comment by Rob

April 27, 2010 @ 8:41 pm

Hello everyone, Moderator Rob here. Sorry about the recent spat of junk comments. It appears to be a new wave of comment spam. I’m looking into it now. I can tell you that The Scroll has not been hacked.

Thanks for your patience while we work this out.

Comment by Deborah

April 28, 2010 @ 1:54 pm

Hi Rob, thanks for working on it. I didn’t mean to join the blame bandwagon either. I had long since realized that male names or initials were being applied to every spam comment regardless of whether it was repeating a male or female’s comment and so figured it was not something so sinister in genesis. Granted, some of us have seen rather sinister responses to our beliefs, but I just meant to affirm what was happening. Best, Deb

Comment by Brie Marie

May 5, 2010 @ 4:06 pm

My husband and I had a very non traditional proposal/engagement/marriage.

He gave me a ring while folding laundry and watching the Simpson’s the night after Christmas after we had been talking about it for months. He also had a ring, but did not wear it as he works construction and I’d rather have a husband with his fingers as long as possible.

No parental permission was asked, because I ranted about not being my father’s property when he suggested it. My father vocalized that he was disappointed that he wasn’t asked. Again, I ranted.

We went to the courthouse because we couldn’t decide on his Evangelical pastor uncle to preside, which of my 2 Lutheran pastor uncles to preside, or the female pastor of the church we recently started attending. Plus the cost of renting a church is prohibitive, and it was November in Minnesota. So no walking down the aisle for anyone, but with a blessing after the fact.

I did not take my husband’s name or hyphenate, (again rant about ownership and male hegemony.) I regretfully have to carry around my marriage certificate so people believe he is my husband.

Comment by Deborah

June 18, 2010 @ 6:31 pm

Wow, I knew Sweden tended to be egalitarian, but I had no idea there was a whole westernized country that tended to eschew the tradition of the fathers walking the daughters: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7838559/Sweden-hosts-Europes-biggest-royal-wedding-since-Charles-and-Diana.html

Comment by Christensen

July 10, 2010 @ 7:52 pm

I will have to come back here and read this more. Right now, my fiancee and are about to leave for a trip to Seoul (we currently live in Korea, where she has lived all her life and I have moved back to after living here for three years). But I found it interesting that our situation was rather nontraditional, even though we sometimes follow Korean traditions on things (we rarely follow American ones since I don’t hold to most of them). Is it because we are a mixed couple that it came so easily?

The Proposal: To be honest, our relationship began online. We both were looking for online language partners, and that arrangement grew into a relationship. But I love it that she was the one who initially pursued me. I had no doubt that she was crazy about me! Unlike the headaches I had had in the past with women I had to chase (being the man, of course), my fiancee, MinYoung, pursued me. And that was the initial thing that attracted me to her. She was also the first one to say “Will you marry me?”. But I had initiated the talk of marriage. So, in her mind, I was the first one who proposed (in my mind, she was). Yet, we proposed without rings. It simply came out of talking about our relationship.

To be honest, later, when we did have rings, I did propose to her. I tried to be romantic, but, by that time, I was living with her family, so I didn’t have any opportunities or connections to really pull off anything. And she knew exactly what I was going to do the whole time! It is hard to surprise her…mainly because I’m not very good at keeping secrets (don’t usually like to).

Parental Support: Since our relationship began online, we both went to our families and told them separately what was going on. So, in effect, we both asked them for their permission. I have, of course, met her family. But it wasn’t to get permission. They had already given it to her :)

The Engagement Ring: In the Korean culture, both the man and the woman wear rings. I like that tradition. And so, right now, I’m wearing an engagement ring. Mine has a CZ diamond (how my American friends would tease me!). Hers has a real diamond. Originally, we had decided not to get diamond rings, but I think her mom convinced her that a diamond ring was gorgeous. Her mom is a lot more traditional than us.

And on last names: We talked about it. I told her that I wanted us to decide and to not let our traditions dictate what we would do. Everyone here probably knows the American traditions, but the Korean ones are slightly different. The woman retains her last name after marriage, but the children take the father’s name. It has to do with their family trees. Long story. But we decided together that both of us would keep our last names and that our children would also have her last name. I’m not that attached to mine, so this was something that both of us felt comfortable about. As well, her last name is almost exactly like mine – Low, Jo :)

Comment by Deborah

July 11, 2010 @ 1:40 pm

lol on lowe/low; you hadn’t told me that part yet….

i like the idea of both having rings or of just waiting until marriage for rings (but that’s perhaps b/c there are few diamond rings that really wow me, and those ones would be perhaps unjustifiably pricey). interesante!

Comment by EMBG (formerly the other "EM")

August 20, 2010 @ 12:37 pm

Like this post and the discussion…

We wrote our own vows, which were:

Him
As a man created in the image of God and, though marred by sin, restored to fellowship with Him through the loving sacrifice of my Savior, Lord and friend, Jesus Christ, I covenant before God today to submit all aspects of my life and marriage to His wise Providence. Trusting in His power to fulfill these vows, I, , joyfully receive you, , into intimate fellowship as my wife: to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health; to love, honor and cherish, forsaking all others, until death ushers one of us into glory.

Her
As a woman created in the image of God and, though marred by sin, restored to fellowship with Him through the loving sacrifice of my Savior, Lord and friend, Jesus Christ, I covenant before God today to submit all aspects of my life and marriage to His wise Providence. Trusting in His power to fulfill thesevows, I, , joyfully receive you, , into intimate fellowship as my husband: to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health; to love, honor and cherish, forsaking all others, until death ushers one of us into glory.

—

It was very interesting planning a wedding as a more egal couple with a comp pastor whom we love and respect (and w/out whose prayers and counsel I probably wouldn’t have been getting married!).

My highest priority, next to our vows, was the sermon. I wanted it to proclaim the gospel and present a marriage of partnership and mutuality in the gospel. My pastor did that and didn’t include anything I objected to, and I was very grateful for that. He really did a tremendous job with the sermon and it’s one I would love to share with others.

Our pastor wanted us to put something about different “roles” in our vows but respected our decision not to do so.

I wore a veil (which he lifted for our first married kiss) and a “champagne” dress.

I walked down the aisle alone. My dad is deceased and I’ve been on my own awhile so I didn’t feel I needed any support. My husband walked his mom to her seat at her request, as a way of showing her respect.

We didn’t push the introduction and my pastor did introduce us as Mr. & Mrs. . This wouldn’t have been my preference but I didn’t want to make an issue of it when our pastor had been accomodating in many other areas.

Comment by Sonnet

August 21, 2010 @ 10:26 am

EMBG, your vows are beautiful!

Comment by TL

August 24, 2010 @ 11:38 am

IMO the most “egal” thing a couple can do to promote and honor mutuality is to design their wedding and ceremony to reflect their values. In marriage the mutuality choices are to arrange the marriage to reflect the strengths of each partner, not to conform to traditional ideas. A wedding should be arranged with the same ideas.

The sharing of different ideas for weddings have been delightful to read. :)

Comment by Natasha

November 26, 2010 @ 1:34 am

I would like to second Moara’s opinion about the bride’s white dress. The white wedding dress puts the bride’s purity on display, which is strange because we expect the groom to be pure as well. I think that this difference in symbolism of dress subtly symbolizes the odd value of making women’s purity so essential…purity rings, purity books, purity sermons…while men’s purity seems to be less essential.

Comment by Liz

November 28, 2010 @ 12:55 am

Thanks for your comment Natasha. It is such an important point – the disparity between the need for purity by women and that of men. Hope to read more of your thoughts from time to time.

Comment by amanda

August 22, 2011 @ 1:00 pm

Just on the topic of rings and last names:
Currently my husband and I teach at the same school. I haven’t taken his name but I am planning on it. For me it goes to the same reason I wanted him to wear a wedding ring. I feel that it can be misleading for there not to be some sign that you are married.
We both teach at the same school and I can guarantee that if we did not go by the same last name there would be people who would not know we were married and would consider us sharing a hug after school to be totally inappropriate.
Also, everyone has met that person who you have known for a while and suddenly they mention their spouse and you had no idea they were married at all. For almost a year I could not figure out if my pastor’s wife was alive or not because he rarely mentioned her!
I didn’t really want that for either of us, so I did take his name and we do wear rings.

Comment by Don

August 23, 2011 @ 12:47 pm

I hope the ring is in your nose so that you are “Biblical”! Smile.

Gen 24:47 Then I asked her, ‘Whose daughter are you?’ She said, ‘The daughter of Bethuel, Nahor’s son, whom Milcah bore to him.’ So I put the ring on her nose and the bracelets on her arms.

Eze 16:12 And I put a ring on your nose and earrings in your ears and a beautiful crown on your head.