The CBE Scroll

Comment by Deborah

June 5, 2010 @ 9:57 am

Amen. Opportunities to receive from and give to the underprivileged certainly make one richer ;-)!

Comment by Leigh

June 5, 2010 @ 3:27 pm

Am I the only person who went, “What?!” at the 4th paragraph? It’s the one that begins, “The poor do not exist so we can have someone to give to and pray for,” which I believe. And I appreciate the blog post up to that point, as well.

I believe I understand the message here, but the wording comes across to me as financially and intellectually classist–which I know is not the intent.

Comment by Deborah

June 5, 2010 @ 3:34 pm

Well, I did think about how some intellectual people certainly end up in dire straits and took pause there.

I can sort of see how the opening could be construed that way, but I actually took it as the writer’s attempt to do precisely the opposite–to tell us to get over our charity-case mentality which belittles and codifies the individual.

Comment by Deborah

June 5, 2010 @ 3:34 pm

And of course, some in the “we” audience are poor.

Comment by Hubert Edgar

June 5, 2010 @ 5:44 pm

I apologize for any apparent classism. If it helps to know, my wife and I both live on one 3/4th time job and spend a good deal of our income on medications. If God had not blessed us by having my wife’s parents leave her/us a paid-for home, we might be homeless. I have close relatives who have been, and are, in severe financial trouble, and they are fine Christians and inspirations and resources spiritually for me. My objective here is to call attention to a group in the Church whose gifts I think are underused. However, in “poor” churches, they tend to really support each other, using those gifts of the Spirit. “Rich” churches could grow in grace with those helps.

Leigh, I appreciate your concern about classism. It’s often very hard to say exactly what you mean, and your comment has let me explain better. Your concern shows you share my concern. We’re on the same team. Thanks!

I also want to comment on something else that Leigh has done so well. She has kept this site honest. We should be able to express our concerns and disagreements honestly. Here, we share those gifts of the Spirit offered to all Christians: trust, community, and support.

Comment by Leigh

June 7, 2010 @ 2:24 pm

Thank you for the clarification, and the kind response. I am aware and glad that we are on the same team.

I also appreciate the difficult of expressing things in words. I stumble over words a lot, myself.

Your response to my concerns serves as a good example to me, and your clarification serves to clear up misconceptions that I was afraid other readers may have gotten from the original post regarding an “us vs. them” mentality. You make it clear that this is not your perspective. Thank you again.

Comment by Marjorie

June 7, 2010 @ 7:01 pm

The teaching in the epistle of James is so clear that we have little choice in the matter of treating the poor with dignity. ”My dear brothers and sisters, how can you claim to have faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ if you favor some people over others? For example, suppose someone comes into your meeting dressed in fancy clothes and expensive jewelry, and another comes in who is poor and dressed in dirty clothes. If you give special attention and a good seat to the rich person, but you say to the poor one, “You can stand over there, or else sit on the floor”—well, doesn’t this discrimination show that your judgments are guided by evil motives? . . . If you favor some people over others, you are committing a sin. You are guilty of breaking the law.” (James 2:1-4, 9 NLT)

This does not mean we push unqualified people into places of responsibility for which they are unprepared and where they would almost certainly fail. But to slight the economically disadvantaged not only disobeys the law of love, it also shows disrespect for what some of us are or have been—or what, in these uncertain times, some of us might eventually become. Many comfortable, well-fed people today place a lot of emphasis on the material blessings to be enjoyed if one embraces the truth of the Gospel. But we don’t see that working very well in India and the Sudan, or Haiti and post-Katrina New Orleans. That preferential gospel just may not be the Gospel of Jesus Christ in which is clearly taught that “differences” make no difference to Him. He never abandons His own, and the Spirit bestows gifts on them all.

Comment by Hubert Edgar

June 8, 2010 @ 10:42 am

Marjorie, I particularly like your comment, “This does not mean we push unqualified people into places of responsibility for which they are unprepared and where they would almost certainly fail.” Many poor are under educated, both formally and socially. That doesn’t mean those people have no gifts they can use to serve God. Are we, as churches, sensitive to providing the needed training to help these gifted poor to serve in the way God has gifted them to serve?

You are also so right about those now financially okay easily falling into a poorer category. The Golden Rule applies even more since, if you’re not already in poverty, it’s not too difficult right now to end up there. In my office (I’m an intake worker so I hear all the stories coming in), we’re seeing more and more new poor whose businesses went under or who are working in industries currently downsizing. Once thing I’ve noticed since I’ve gone from full-time to part-time is I’m gifted with less money but more time for God’s use. And everyone knows, time is a gift.

Comment by anon

June 13, 2010 @ 9:19 am

I appreciate the intent, but I bristled at the last statements too. The “poor” aren’t the other…they are us if we get sick or old, bear the burden of caregiving a disabled relative, are divorced, widowed, or the victim of crime, lack sufficient supportive relationships to handle a crisis. For the record, I am a college – educated Christian woman with what I’ve been told is more than average cognitive ability. I clean up well, can play nice with others, and have even held some Christian leadership positions. I’m also a single mother whose underlying health issues escalated to the point of disability after my husband left. I have been unable to get any social security – was barely able to get a doctor to take me seriously. My son has grown up so far below the poverty line. My experience tells me that the American church is woefully unprepared to assess, much less deal with, most long-term difficult situations. Kudos for raising the issue, but the solution in my mind is not to provide an apologetic for “the poor’s” lack of acceptability, it is to challenge the prevailing disconnection, ignorance and bias in the church. (sorry if this is a somewhat warm response – the post touched a nerve stung by experience)

Comment by Liz

June 13, 2010 @ 9:35 pm

I’m sure that the author of this post will have something to say in reply, but I am sure that this post was an attempt to begin the challenge which you so rightly point out. Sometimes words get in the way……… thanks for sharing and no need for an apology.

Comment by Hubert Edgar

June 13, 2010 @ 11:03 pm

Anon, I’m not an attorney. I’m an intake worker with a Legal Aid office. Most Legal Aid offices will help with problems getting Social Security. There are also other organizations, including NOSSCR (Nat’l. Organization of Social Security Client Representatives). You can find out about them at http://www.nosscr.org/contact.html.

I was turned down for Social Security Disability and ended up having to go to an ALJ hearing. I got an attorney who did that on a “contingency” basis. That is, if he lost he got nothing and if he won he got a percentage of the back payment. I suggest you try again on the Social Security. Your disability sounds similar to mine: severe depression/anxiety.

I apologize for any hurt my post may have brought. My point is meant to be that the poor in the Body of Christ have the same gifts as the non-poor. The Church and the local churches need to be doing what is needed to activate those gifts. Yes, we should be helping the poor with their needs (food, clothing, shelter). But that’s not enough. We need to see that the poor are getting what is rightfully everyone’s, including theirs (respect, encouragement and the opportunities to use their God-given gifts).

You sound like a very gifted woman: intelligent, experienced in leadership and college educated. If your church isn’t putting those to work, maybe you need to have a chat with someone in leadership.

Maybe I can offer some other ideas about dealing with your and your son’s problems. I live in Minnesota, so I may not know your local/state options, but if you think I can offer help in any way, I’d be more than happy to communicate with you. My last name is Hix and my email address is hedgarpoet@hotmail.com. Drop me a line.

Comment by anon

June 14, 2010 @ 7:10 am

ty, Liz. Words do get in the way, mine no less (and sometimes more) than others’. I don’t wish to punish the author for taking on such a necessary and risky subject. Nor do I want to make a blanket condemnation of the whole church. I have been blessed more than once by generous, loving Christians. But I’ve found that the most generous are often those who have the least to give – because they understand. And there is a tendency to view “the poor” in stereotypical terms – the third world poor, inner city poor, ignorant or irresponsible poor – with the “the church’s” role being to fix, correct, educate. I applaud the writer for pointing out that the poor often ARE part of the church, but I’m concerned that stereotypes might have been reinforced rather than challenged. Still, thank you (writer) for bringing the subject up :)

Comment by Deborah

June 14, 2010 @ 11:07 am

Thank you, Anon. You make great points. I wonder if much of what sensitized you might be attributed to the brevity of such a piece, particularly considering the author’s personal story (as explained in the comments) as one in a delicate financial situation. All these concerns and nuances are unlikely to be hit so succinctly. I am also dealing w/ serious health issues and might be listed among the poor although I gratefully have some desperately needed help from family. God bless you.

Comment by anon

June 15, 2010 @ 11:37 am

ty and blessings, Deborah. I’m glad your family has been able to help :). Brevity is always an issue. Part of my reaction stems from the fact that so many Christian discussions use the same kind of examples, feeding the “us/them” dichotomy. I’m glad that the author is very obviously trying to bridge a socioeconomic divide. My (admittedly somewhat jaded) suspicion is that the particular description given would serve to reinforce bias even as it is intended to break down walls.

Comment by Marta

June 19, 2010 @ 8:44 am

A few points:

1. The poor, who are believers, have to rely on God. This makes their every day existence very different from those who do not have the same need to be so dependent on God for their basics.

2. God usually works through people to help those who are His and many times people do not really understand what made them do something. And, in my experience, quite often God has used unbelievers or nominal Christians to help. I find this interesting. And one reason is because of what many “Christians” believe about poverty. That it is a curse from God or someone did something to deserve being poor. And all too often, those in the institutional church will say, “God will provide” not realizing that God has commanded them to help those in the Body. They do not know because they have been taught wrongly. This is a part of the ‘prosperity Gospel’ which comes in many shapes and sizes.

3. The institutional church is spending so much money on buildings, programs and salaries, it is neglecting those in the Body who have serious needs. Instead, many are preaching a works based santicifation based on the poor tithing. As in God will take care of you, if you tithe. Which is the exact opposite of what the NT teaches about helping those in need in the Body. These ‘tithe to please God pastors’ are preaching a different word than what is in the Word.

Comment by ls

June 19, 2010 @ 1:30 pm

I am reluctant to invite people to ‘church’ and wondering where to invest more myself also. I have some places that I trust, but I wonder where/what to speak favorably of. I just think that much ‘teaching’ and ‘programs’ are not, to use Katherine Bushnell’s phrase, ‘the best that could be done’ and I am still after this. I have changed my financial commitment as well as my emotional commitment because I sense, in the places that I am associated, an intention toward male bias in the flavor of Piper and Grudem. I am at a transitional stage with my family, though, so I am hoping and praying for better places that I can be enthusiastic about being a part of and trying to draw other people to.

ls

Comment by Marjorie

June 21, 2010 @ 3:38 pm

This has been an interesting and helpful discussion to me–an awareness-raising experience. I’ve been listening more carefully, and I find that in the media, the workplace, even in the Church and sadly in my own conversation sometimes, there are varying degrees of “us vs. them” or “I vs. you” expressed. No one seems to intend harm, but since I know what it’s like to be one of “the others,” I’m going to be more careful not to hurt/offend those with whom I work, play or pray.

We so readily see differences that we can always find someone “below” us to whom we can refer as “them.” If not economics, then education, speech, mannerisms, age, inexperience, the list goes on and on.

When I was growing up, my big brothers used to bring me down a notch or two sometimes by asking, “What makes you think you’re so special?” Good question, since the Apostle Paul writes, “For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?” (I Corinthians 4:7)

Comment by Hubert Edgar

June 22, 2010 @ 11:11 am

I’m glad we’re being more conscious of the poor. Specifically, I’m hoping to raise consciousness that the poor have a lot to offer “us.” As more of “us” lose jobs, homes, etc., and become “them,” I’m hoping we’ll keep in mind that poverty does not mean uselessness. We still have the gifts God gave us and can still use them. We also all have our needs, some financial, some familial, some social, etc., that the local church and fellow Christians can assist us with. Poverty is a need, but does not need to put us into a separate part of the Body of Christ or the local church.

Comment by Marjorie

June 22, 2010 @ 5:55 pm

Speakers and writers often use a “we” simply to designate everybody. I did it myself when I stated (in #91387), “This does not mean we push unqualified people . . .,”where my meaning was the whole Church. I have a feeling that is how the writer of this article landed in the discussion about classism–right? Maybe we (speakers and writers) can be a bit clearer just who we mean when we say “we” nd “they.”

Likewise, it is to be hoped that as listeners or readers, we (all of us) can discern the use of that “editorial we” and sort out intent that is pure from that which is offensive. It is a good thing for us to become aware of how speech reflects attitude, hence the value of our discussion here which, as I see it, goes far beyond being about “the poor.” If our speech portrays something we do not intend, or if our attitudes themselves need adjustment, that is all the more reason why we need each other.

Comment by ls

June 26, 2010 @ 8:49 am

I appreciate the discussion here and especially, your last comment, Marjorie. I have a lot of ‘us’ versus ‘them’ in my speech and attitude adjustment is difficult. It just keeps creeping back in. I am ‘in process’. Just wanted you to know I appreciate your way of describing that and acknowledging “all the more reason why we need each other”. I agree with that.

ls

Comment by Anon

June 29, 2010 @ 7:00 pm

Scooted back here to catch up. I realize I hadn’t noticed Hubert’s very important post. Thank you for your kind words; I assure you, you haven’t hurt me. I really do appreciate you bringing this up and sharing your personal story. Blessings to you and your wife as you walk a path with difficulties and gifts many won’t understand. I’m in the process of appealing my SSDI app w/an attorney right now. Would appreciate prayer on that. Thank you especially for your kind words. I have talked to church leaders….repeatedly….at length….in several churches….over a period of over a decade. I have, after explaining my situation the best I can, been told I don’t have enough faith, need to read my Bible more, need to quit being so self-centered, should try a budget. I’ve been accused (sometimes directly, sometimes by implication) of drug abuse, dishonesty, manipulation, exaggeration, and child neglect – by pastors. The best responses have been sympathetic, if somewhat guarded, but ineffectual over the long term. I’ve lived largely in two worlds: among those who have respected and appreciated my gifts and contributions when I was able to not let my disability infringe upon those connections, and those who have distanced themselves or passed judgement because of my situation. It seems that for many the dissonance between the one and the other is difficult to bridge, and that we’ve lost the awareness of complexity, the burden of patient discernment and learning. I’ve been blessed by supportive people who understand, but often they understand because of personal experience and are likely just keeping their own heads above water. Very little active support has come through the organized church, with a few notable exceptions that have meant immeasurably much. In my experience, our contemporary evangelical theology and understanding is beyond inadequate when it comes to long-term, complex compromising situations. In my mind, this reveals a hole in our understanding of who and what we are as a Body, and as a people apart.

Comment by Anon

June 29, 2010 @ 7:07 pm

Marta – amen! Very good points, esp. #2. Very few of us accomplish much w/out using our bodies; it astounds me how often Christians seem to assume that Christ operates differently. And we don’t need a special “calling” to do that which God has already told us to do.

Comment by Anon

June 29, 2010 @ 7:33 pm

Marjorie – I appreciate your explanation of the editorial “we.” A potential complication to that usage, tho: the introduction of the other. For example, in the statement “that doesn’t mean we push unqualified people…” there are potentially two groups mentioned – “we” and “unqualified people.” Hubert mentioned that the subjects of this sentence are indeed part of the church, but in many practical ways they aren’t embraced as part of the “we.” In this context, I think that extra care to emphasize our common “we” status and not reinforce stereotypical perceptions might be warranted.

Sorry for all the posts. I haven’t visited in a while and there are so many good comments to think about!:-)

Comment by Hubert Edgar

June 30, 2010 @ 1:48 am

Thanks for all your comments. Anon, I’ve sent up a prayer for your SSDI appeal. I was very blessed that, when I went before the ALJ, it went quickly and easily. I pray the same for you. Also, let me encourage you that several years have passed and I have been able to move up to 3/4th time work. I pray for continued healing in your life.

Your comment about pastors reminds me of a time before my wife and I became egalitarians. We were having significant marital problems and went to our pastor about them. He listened, then basically told Julie to do whatever I wanted and that was it. End of counseling. You know, it’s sad but true that very few schools, if any, require any training in psychological training as part of their seminary. This when one of the most important things a pastor does is counsel members (and non-members). Knowing theology is great, but knowing how to apply it is every bit as important.