The CBE Scroll

Comment by D C Cramer

January 31, 2012 @ 8:04 am

Matthew 23:8-12

“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

The problem is making the above passage female-specific, when Jesus is (minimally) addressing men. However, it seems the principle still holds.

Comment by Eiolgj

January 31, 2012 @ 9:42 am

Apparently you come from a church background in which a person is elevated by a local congregation to the title of pastor and then seeks schooling if that person wishes to do so. My background is one in which a person thinks he/she is “called” to be a pastor, seeks schooling while at the same time being under the guidance of a synod committee which oversees the interviews, schooling, other programs, and ultimately, says yes or no to the person receiving the ok to be ordained, but only if “called” by a specific church. Then the ordained person has certain duties and is allowed to preside at communion, among other things. (Although lay people do preside in certain circumstances which is controversial.)

While I’m more comfortable with what I’m familiar with, I really don’t see how much of any of this is strictly Biblical. It seems to be tradition and culture, more than anything. If you are born into a family that has allowed women pastors, then that might seem natural, and vice versa. A number of mainline churches allow women to be ordained; it was controversial at first. But over a hundred years ago, some of the pentecostal movements had women leaders and preachers. There’s a verse about the end time raising up women.

Some people have said that if certain jobs are reserved just for the pastor, then that is a sort of job security measure. Others point out that we can come directly to God, because of Jesus. We don’t need a priest to intervene.

It is possible that a person, man or woman, could be power hungry, and therefore that person puts him/herself forward as a “pastor.” We’ve seen this corrupt churches and movements. But if that person’s sense of call is confirmed by those around him/her and there is a structure to restrain someone who gets out of line, then power hungry should not be an issue.

Men who are frightened by a woman’s title should examine their own heart.

Comment by deb

January 31, 2012 @ 9:44 am

Pastor means shepherd. When will we begin calling things as they are, instead of dancing around issues with semantics? My reading was in Ezekiel this morning, where the prophet is blasting the shepherds of Israel, for their failure to care for the sheep. Humility isn’t about how it’s titled as much as how it’s done.

Comment by W. Shaffer

January 31, 2012 @ 9:47 am

It occurs to me that the only person in the N.T. specifically given the label, “pastor” (shepherd) is Jesus.

Perhaps the next nearest example is the one given the label, “prostatis” (patron, protector, provider, president) — Phoebe, in Rom. 16.

Comment by Michelle Krabill

January 31, 2012 @ 9:56 am

I totally agree. Men are serving: women are power hungry. Men are powerful: women are bossy. Men are leading: women are usurping. It is time for such antiquated thinking to go the way of the dinosaurs.

Comment by Kristen Marble

January 31, 2012 @ 10:55 am

If the question is about titles, and specifically the title of pastor, then the question should be the same for women and men. If we choose to identify individuals called and gifted to shepherd congregations by the title “Pastor”, then all who are in that position should be called by that title – regardless of whether they were created as females or males.

In the NT, we see the five-fold ministries of apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd and teacher identified. Most churches today have condensed those ministries into a title of pastor. If we don’t like/agree with the title, that’s another discussion. But, a woman desiring to be equivalently identified by a particular church’s/denomination’s title is not about power grabbing.

Incidentally, I recently wrote a blog post called “I am (Pastor) Kristen” that was published by Burnside Writers Collective today in which I reflected on whether the title of “pastor” is perhaps earned more than given. But regardless, however we approach the title and role, should be the same no matter who is in that position.

Imagine the outcry if we were to say, “I am awfully suspicious of youth pastors who are looking for titles anyway. Any time a youth pastor is trying to get the title, it makes me think he is hungry for power. They should be happy to serve alongside the lead pastor in full capacity without the title.”

Comment by RED

January 31, 2012 @ 11:58 am

Yep, totally agree. It’s a double-standard.

Interestingly, this is exactly what Seattle Pastor Mark Driscoll thinks about women–any woman who seeks a position of power is exactly the person you SHOULDN’T give it to, because she is power hungry.

Interestingly, Mark encourages men to aspire to positions of leadership, with none of the same worries.

Then again, I don’t think Mark believes women are as intelligent and capable as men, so…I guess if you walk around with that expectation, you ARE going to interpret the same action differently coming from different genders.

I really hate it when people say that egalitarians and feminists shouldn’t be fighting for their rights, because the Kingdom of God “isn’t about rights.” If we all listened to that argument, we would have to agree that ending slavery and the Civil Rights movement were unChristian, because those who care about the kingdom shouldn’t care if their rights are limited because of their skin color. Ugh!

Comment by Stephanie

January 31, 2012 @ 4:01 pm

I have had almost the exact same discussions with pastors and their wives before. It’s very disheartening. It definitely communicates to me that no matter how servanthearted a woman may be or how much fruit is shown through her ministry, she is not as important as a man. Titles communicate something as to how the church views their workers, whether it is a pastor or director.

I was hired as a “youth pastor” for a church once but when they decided to hire me and not a man they changed the title to “youth director”… they didn’t change the job description or anything else. In fact, they started to give me more areas of responsibility, like leading worship and participating in outreach activities. But I couldn’t be called a youth pastor. It immediately communicated a devalue to me.

Comment by Eiolgj

January 31, 2012 @ 4:27 pm

It seems that women who allow this devaluation to happen to them may do so unwittingly because that is all they have ever heard of. I’m not into blaming the victim here, but women do an awful lot of volunteering in churches and just take for granted that they will get no pay or recognition or respect for this.

Now, granted, when I was “Sunday School Superintendent” I put in a lot of hours for no pay. I had been a teacher, but my role as the SSS was more organizational than educational.

But when my friend was attending the Catholic Church, she was asked to be the educational coordinator. She said yes, but she asked to be paid. She was a teacher who was, at that time, scraping together a living, working as a substitute teacher, among other things, to help support her family. In the Catholic Church, the decisions aren’t made locally, but the next level up said YES, and she got $5/hour to start. Later it went up to $9/hour. She did a fine job and it was the only time that church had a good solid educational program.

So I just want to suggest that women have to first recognize their own call within their church, and respect their own gifts from God. That will help communicate that what they do is important, not just an auxiliary position of lesser importance.

Comment by Sonnet

January 31, 2012 @ 5:34 pm

I find it ironic that some churches use the job title of director for women instead of using the title of pastor. A director is defined as one who controls, manages or supervises, while a pastor is synonymous with a shepherd. So which one sounds more powerful and more authoritative?

Comment by nancy werking poling

January 31, 2012 @ 6:35 pm

The third or fourth time I went to get my hair cut after moving to this new town, my beautician asked where I go to church. “Y’all are the ones with that lady preacher, aren’t you?” she asked. “Yes,” I said. “I’m Southern Baptist and we don’t believe in women preaching. But I went to ___’s funeral last week, and when I came home I told my husband, ‘That woman has been called by God.’”

When the church wakes up and sees the talent it’s been missing by not allowing women into full leadership, it will be only too eager to call her Reverend or Pastor or Preacher.

Comment by Liz

January 31, 2012 @ 6:41 pm

Thanks for that encouraging story Nancy – it has been said that more people have their minds changed by experiencing women in leadership than by debate.

Comment by Liz

January 31, 2012 @ 6:44 pm

What’s in a name ? Different denominations call their ‘leaders’ different titles and all think they have the biblical backing for this.

One of our sons (38 yr old) is the youth pastor in their church but can’t be called ‘pastor’ as he hasn’t been theologically trained so has the title ‘youth minister’. In other churches, minister is a ‘higher’ position and ‘pastor’ is a lesser title.

Comment by Liz

January 31, 2012 @ 6:52 pm

When we were co-pastoring we organised the yearly church camp and appointed a young man to be the one who called folks to meals and meetings and generally rounded people up for their various duties.

Early one morning, I went to the dining hall and found a young mum there with 2 hungry children and said they could have their breakfast cereal before the appointed time. This was the usual practice at many camps we had attended and run before. However…..a little while later I was confronted by an extremely agitated young man (the one mentioned above) who blurted out “You have undermined my authority and are a very powerful woman! No wonder many men are threatened by you”

This guy whom we treated as a son, had control issues both at church and in his home with his wife and family, and couldn’t handle who he perceived as a ‘powerful woman’. I tried to explain to him about the policies re camp meals etc. but he was not convinced. He just saw me as having some sort of power which was the furthest thing from my mind, at that time or throughout my ministry.

This wasn’t the only time this guy felt his ‘authority’ undermined but one example is enough :-)

Comment by Jo Royal

February 1, 2012 @ 8:50 am

To me the issue is the double standards! If a male were in the same position the title ‘Pastor’ would pretty much fall upon him (in some traditions anyway) – whereas a woman – fulfilling the same role (even having the same calling) is given a different name – so as not to offend or confuse or challenge those difficult scriptures. It breaks my heart – and is something I have experienced personally. I share some of my story over on my blog – particularly on my ‘coming out’ (as an Egalitarian) series. Part four touches on this subject specifically – if you’re interested – you can read it here – http://www.joroyal.com/2011/12/one-where-i-come-out-part-four.html It isn’t about power at all – it is about equality.
Jo

Comment by Don

February 1, 2012 @ 9:19 am

I see it as dealing with the framework one has. If one has a (supposedly) literalist authoritarian framework like comps tend to have, then one needs to present things inside that framework in order to not cause ruffled feathers. So there are all kinds of euphemisms used to avoid stating the obvious, except when it (supposedly) needs to be stated. It is mind game playing of the highest order in some cases, where the exact same action is thought good when done by a male and thought bad when done by a female.

Comment by Sonnet

February 1, 2012 @ 2:38 pm

“Differing weights and differing measures—
the LORD detests them both.” Proverbs 20:10 TNIV

MaryAnn, I think your story highlighting double-standards applied to men and women sounds like a case of using differing weights and measures. So based on the above proverb, I don’t think that Christians should be engaging in that kind of activity.

@Jo: I enjoyed reading about your egalitarian transformation. Looking forward to part 5.

Comment by Liz

February 1, 2012 @ 5:27 pm

Reminds me of a time when a guy in our church said to me “I love what you do and how you do it, just don’t call yourself an elder” It was all about the title!

Another man said he would resign if I became an elder (even though nothing about what I was doing would have changed) At that time, our constitution didn’t allow women elders so it wasn’t an issue, but over time that was changed.

Funny thing with titles….we have observed many men who have been great servants in the church while not having official titles and then once elected to a ‘role’ have had a change of attitude.

Comment by Trevor

February 1, 2012 @ 8:06 pm

You might have picked it up in Liz’s comment, but perhaps I should say it specifically, the attitudes of these men changed for the worst. Being elected to a position of Eldership or Deacon, for these men, was equated with power. It was a power that they, most likely, may not have been able to exercise in secular life.

Conversely, men who already had positions of authority in the workplace took on their church role with humility and servanthood, seeing it as an honour to serve God in the church. Also, when we were finally able to elect women into the function of Elder, none of them changed in personality or were unduly power hungry. In fact the reverse, they were overwhelmed with a sense of inadequacy and approached the task with humility and an obvious dependence upon God.

Jo, I really appreciate you sharing your journey with us here. It certainly illustrates the sentiments and experience of MaryAnn shared in this post.

Comment by Eiolgj

February 1, 2012 @ 9:50 pm

I’m really shocked about the way some of you are portraying people in your church community. I haven’t seen that power stuff myself. But then, we’ve had women on the council for at least 30 years and women pastors in our denomination for at least 40 years. Now the number of women attending seminary are outnumbering the men, especially because there are so many second career students that are women. The Call from God was there for a long time, I guess. But we do have ordination, so pastors have to go through a lot of schooling, extra programs, internships, and frequent interviews by their synod committees before they can even be considered for ordination, and after 4 – 5 years of preparation, they still might not get a call, and so therefore not become an ordained pastor.

Comment by Sara

February 1, 2012 @ 9:54 pm

Ironically, I have seen that a woman who is a pastor alongside her husband loses all power if her husband does something to lose his pastor’s position. She has no standing in her own right, and it makes no difference whatsoever how well she conducts herself. If her husband is out, so is she.
This view of being a pastor alongside one’s husband is so much hooey. It is only a way to pretend that women are functionally equal, when it is really a case of making sure the woman has no autonomy.

Comment by Eiolgj

February 1, 2012 @ 10:10 pm

Although I’ve heard of a husband and wife co pastoring a church, the pastor couples I know of work in separate churches. Probably healthier. My daughter is a pastor and her husband is a seminary graduate, but he did other church related work, so he doesn’t get the status of a pastor. Now he wants to take additional seminary classes for the field he is in, and, interestingly, he would then be eligible for ordination. I really can’t see them working in the same church ever, but they are a great couple.

Comment by Liz

February 1, 2012 @ 10:59 pm

We started out with Trevor being the pastor which was the expected role. We shared much of the ministry load but I was just ‘the pastor’s wife’. From the beginning of our marriage I determined to not fit the pastor’s wife role and try to be myself and only do what God had called and equipped me to do (which wasn’t to run women’s meetings and be a fantastic hostess)

As the children grew up and I was more free we had a situation where we shared the income. I was listed as doing counselling and admin. while Trevor continued as the pastor. We had a few incidents where people objected to my doing some things, like leading prayer meetings and training home group leaders so mostly kept within the boundaries.

Eventually, I was recognised as ‘associate pastor’ and even though we shared the ministry and I was allowed to preach, a few folk couldn’t accept the fact that we could co-pastor. There had to be a ‘senior pastor’ and only one. After a few years of this, we decided to both be known as elders to try and make the point that there was no hierarchy but for some, there always has to be a ‘boss’.

I guess some feel more comfortable with this, even if they can’t justify it biblically. It’s just what they are used to and they like someone to look up to and that had to be a male. We made a lot of progress over the years and for most it wasn’t an issue at the end and they even accepted our women elders.

Comment by RED

February 2, 2012 @ 8:24 am

Off-topic, but just wanted to alert the bloggers in case they want to do a topic about this; I heard on FB that John Piper made some statement about God giving Christianity “a masculine feel” (and this proves something about the comp position I guess?) Didn’t know what that’s about; might want to check into it if it would be an interesting blog topic.

Comment by Liz

February 2, 2012 @ 8:52 am

The writer of this post alerted us to this article too so something will be written soon…thanks Red

Comment by Mary Ann

February 2, 2012 @ 8:24 pm

Thanks for the verse, Sonnet. I appreciate that reference!

Trevor, that’s a really interesting observation about men who changed their humble demeanor once they got a title — being enabled to exert “power” that they didn’t have in a secular environment. Perhaps they experienced some abuse of power by those over them in the workplace.

Sara, you are so right about women losing their “position” if their husbands lose theirs, since they are not in any official capacity.

I agree with an earlier post that if you’re in a church or denomination where one gender is being given the title as an acknowledgement of their call and gifting, then the other should too. Any candidate for a pastoral position should examine his/her heart for any desires for ‘power’.

Comment by Mary Ann

February 2, 2012 @ 8:28 pm

Stephanie, Thanks for sharing your story about being given the title of Youth Director even though you applied for a Youth Pastor position — a title which they would’ve given you if you were a male! That really is so terrible! Did you accept the position? How long did you stay? Did you feel disempowered by the change of title? Bless you, sister, in your ministry!

Comment by Mary Ann

February 4, 2012 @ 10:08 pm

I just read this sermon from a pastor in my denomination — which discusses this issue of the title of pastor — SENIOR pastor, specifically. I found it to be an edifying read: http://vineyardcolumbus.org/_media/uploads/files/2011_Sermon_Text/MythsthatChristiansBelieve/Women%20Can%27t%20Serve%20as%20Senior%20Pastors,%20Can%20they.pdf

Comment by Mabel

February 11, 2012 @ 8:55 am

Mary Ann, thank you so so so so so much for the link you gave in post 95613. It is the best ever. I am going to save it and share it. I love, love, love, that post. Praise God for people like the author of the post. I sincerely believe that a Spirit filled person will not hold the hierarchal viewpoint. I know many people disagree with me, but I am quite steadfast on this. Therefore I cannot believe that John Piper, who wrote so many books that help so many people, can come up with regulations in his church that women cannot even pray out loud or read the Scriptures out loud. We are not even talking about being a pastor, we are talking about opening her mouth to pray out loud in front of the congregation and to read the Scriptures out loud in front of the congregation. How Spirit filled is he? He is extremely dangerous precisely because he does not come off as unpleasant. He is very pleasant, hence the danger.
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/ask-pastor-john/why-dont-women-ever-read-or-pray-in-bethlehems-church-services