Comments for The CBE Scroll http://blog.cbeinternational.org Blog voices from Christians for Biblical Equality Sat, 22 Nov 2008 00:37:29 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 Comment on The Auntie Model by Don http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/10/the-auntie-model/#comment-87645 Don Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:03:29 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=298#comment-87645 Mindy, Thanks for your encouraging words. I think if you would have stated in your article that the golden rule applied (or similar) then the dinks by CBMW would have been seen as false more easily. Thanks for clarifying in any case. You can give CBMW feedback via email and I suggest you do this, ala Matthew 18. What they do with it is up to them. Each is responsible for their own actions, basic boundary stuff. Mindy,

Thanks for your encouraging words.

I think if you would have stated in your article that the golden rule applied (or similar) then the dinks by CBMW would have been seen as false more easily. Thanks for clarifying in any case.

You can give CBMW feedback via email and I suggest you do this, ala Matthew 18. What they do with it is up to them. Each is responsible for their own actions, basic boundary stuff.

]]> Comment on The Holy Spirit by jlp http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/11/the-holy-spirit/#comment-87644 jlp Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:14:48 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=322#comment-87644 I've been in churches where people prayed to the Holy Spirit. At first I had a hard time accepting this, but then I considered that the Godhead is three in one, and that when you pray to one you are praying to all three. I’ve been in churches where people prayed to the Holy Spirit. At first I had a hard time accepting this, but then I considered that the Godhead is three in one, and that when you pray to one you are praying to all three.

]]> Comment on The Holy Spirit by Ruud Vermeij http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/11/the-holy-spirit/#comment-87643 Ruud Vermeij Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:31:17 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=322#comment-87643 Before I ever heard of subordination in the Trinity between the Father and the Son, I heard the theory that it is not allowed to pray to the Holy Spirit. At that moment, I found this very strange, because I grew up in a church where this was common practise... Before I ever heard of subordination in the Trinity between the Father and the Son, I heard the theory that it is not allowed to pray to the Holy Spirit. At that moment, I found this very strange, because I grew up in a church where this was common practise…

]]> Comment on Refusing to be Ministered to by Hope http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/11/refusing-to-be-ministered-to/#comment-87642 Hope Thu, 20 Nov 2008 02:16:18 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=308#comment-87642 From the CBMW blog, <a href="http://www.cbmw.org/Blog/Posts/Susan-Hunt-Casts-Vision-for-Women-s-Ministry" rel="nofollow">Susan Hunt Casts Vision for Women's Ministry</a>. The male author seems to have had no difficulty sitting under her instruction! From the CBMW blog, Susan Hunt Casts Vision for Women’s Ministry. The male author seems to have had no difficulty sitting under her instruction!

]]> Comment on The Holy Spirit by Trevor http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/11/the-holy-spirit/#comment-87641 Trevor Thu, 20 Nov 2008 00:34:20 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=322#comment-87641 At this point (ie. in reference to the place the Holy Spirit has been given by complementarians), it seems to me, that we have a very interesting twist in this Trinitarian debate. According to a book review done by Kevin Giles on one of Wayne Grudem's latest books, <em>Evangelical Feminism</em>, (see Pricilla Papers volume 22 number 3, Summer 2008) Grudem judges all fellow evangelicals who disagree with him, on the permanent subordination of women as God's ideal, as theological liberals. He (Grudem) even goes so far, within the book, as to naming them! As is to be expected they are all authors that are known, respected and avidly read by most egalitarians. But here is the twist. On this point, (ie. the understanding and interpretation of the nature of the Godhead), we egalitarians, or to use Grudem's term, <em>evangelical feminists</em>, are far more inclined to want to be true to what the bible actually states than allowing ourselves to be influenced by human, or familial comparisons. As I often recall one of my early pastoral mentors saying, "Analogies are a great interpretive tool for shedding light on a subject, but, if pushed too far they are likely to break down." It seems to me that this is a case in point. The analogy has become, or is in danger of becoming, the truth at the expense of the plain teaching of scripture. At this point (ie. in reference to the place the Holy Spirit has been given by complementarians), it seems to me, that we have a very interesting twist in this Trinitarian debate. According to a book review done by Kevin Giles on one of Wayne Grudem’s latest books, Evangelical Feminism, (see Pricilla Papers volume 22 number 3, Summer 2008) Grudem judges all fellow evangelicals who disagree with him, on the permanent subordination of women as God’s ideal, as theological liberals. He (Grudem) even goes so far, within the book, as to naming them! As is to be expected they are all authors that are known, respected and avidly read by most egalitarians.

But here is the twist. On this point, (ie. the understanding and interpretation of the nature of the Godhead), we egalitarians, or to use Grudem’s term, evangelical feminists, are far more inclined to want to be true to what the bible actually states than allowing ourselves to be influenced by human, or familial comparisons. As I often recall one of my early pastoral mentors saying, “Analogies are a great interpretive tool for shedding light on a subject, but, if pushed too far they are likely to break down.” It seems to me that this is a case in point. The analogy has become, or is in danger of becoming, the truth at the expense of the plain teaching of scripture.

]]> Comment on The Holy Spirit by jlp http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/11/the-holy-spirit/#comment-87640 jlp Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:26:15 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=322#comment-87640 Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. That applies to church and marital relationships as well as well to politics. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. That applies to church and marital relationships as well as well to politics.

]]> Comment on The Holy Spirit by jlp http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/11/the-holy-spirit/#comment-87639 jlp Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:24:52 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=322#comment-87639 A group of elders decided to fire that pastor of a church without asking for any input from the members of the church. When I told one of the elders that many people in the church disagreed with the elders decision to fire the pastor, the elder replied "That's sin." These same elders, right after they fired the pastor, told the staff from now on that they, the elders had unilaterally authority over everything and were to be submitted to by the staff in everything. As a result of both these actions the church split, and all the staff members (out of about 20) left except for one. A group of elders decided to fire that pastor of a church without asking for any input from the members of the church. When I told one of the elders that many people in the church disagreed with the elders decision to fire the pastor, the elder replied “That’s sin.” These same elders, right after they fired the pastor, told the staff from now on that they, the elders had unilaterally authority over everything and were to be submitted to by the staff in everything. As a result of both these actions the church split, and all the staff members (out of about 20) left except for one.

]]> Comment on The Holy Spirit by cello http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/11/the-holy-spirit/#comment-87637 cello Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:49:22 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=322#comment-87637 I have a question regarding the Social Order as noted in Janet's post above - I've noticed an increase in pastors teaching submission to church leaders on a variety of topics. One recent sermon I heard was that Christians who didn't officially join a church and thereby submit themselves to a church authority were violating God's law. Another time it was in relation to "don't criticize or question your pastor". I don't know how Biblical that it is but I don't remember hearing this type of stuff when I was a kid. This seems to be unduly authoritarian (and I can see how it ties together with a male-female authoritarian mindset) but I would like to hear others comments on it? I have a question regarding the Social Order as noted in Janet’s post above - I’ve noticed an increase in pastors teaching submission to church leaders on a variety of topics. One recent sermon I heard was that Christians who didn’t officially join a church and thereby submit themselves to a church authority were violating God’s law. Another time it was in relation to “don’t criticize or question your pastor”. I don’t know how Biblical that it is but I don’t remember hearing this type of stuff when I was a kid. This seems to be unduly authoritarian (and I can see how it ties together with a male-female authoritarian mindset) but I would like to hear others comments on it?

]]> Comment on The Holy Spirit by Janet http://blog.cbeinternational.org/2008/11/the-holy-spirit/#comment-87636 Janet Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:17:29 +0000 http://blog.cbeinternational.org/?p=322#comment-87636 Hi, another link: http://www.thetruthproject.org/events/A000000068.cfm Overview of Lesson 7 In this tour and in the ones to follow, we are emphasizing the "roles" within the Triune nature of God—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We have done so to highlight its imprint upon the social order that He has created. In doing so, however, it is possible that someone may wrongly begin to perceive the persons of the Trinity as separate beings. They are not. One must never lose sight of the reality that God is One—one in essence and being. He exists in three persons, yet each is fully and wholly God. The Son is fully God, not a separate God. The Holy Spirit is fully God, not a separate being. So God is truly one in essence because each person of the Trinity is one in essence with the other. But, God is not only one in essence, but He is one in unity. The three persons of the Trinity exist in complete oneness. Each person of the Trinity carries out a unique role and performs unique operations, yet they remain one in essence and one in unity. This is the nature of the eternal God. All of this is mysterious, yes. But not so mysterious that we cannot comprehend its reality. The "mystical union" that exists within the Triune nature of God has also been impressed upon His creation. I do not understand how the flesh and the spirit within me are joined together. I do not understand how my wife and I have become "one flesh". I do not understand how the Spirit of God can dwell within me and somehow be united with me. Paul cries out in reference to these matters and calls it a "profound mystery". So, when we refer to the Son being in submission to the Father, we are referring to the relationship that exists between the second "person" of the Trinity and the first "person" of the Trinity. When we refer to the Holy Spirit "proceeding" from the Father and the Son, we are referring to the unique operation that the Father and the Son carry out and the implied relationship that exists between the Holy Spirit and the Father and the Son. Yet, we are dealing with one God, one Being, one in essence and unity. II. Social Order – The Divine Imprint A. "It is not good" – Genesis 2:18 – Why was it "not good" for man to be alone? B. Triune structure stamped upon Social Order 1. God – Father, Son, Holy Spirit 2. Family – Husband, Wife, Children 3. Church – Christ, Leaders, Flock 4. Our world – Three realms – Physical, Spiritual and Social C. Relationships, Roles, Authority, Submission and Unity within social spheres Hi, another link: http://www.thetruthproject.org/events/A000000068.cfm

Overview of Lesson 7

In this tour and in the ones to follow, we are emphasizing the “roles” within the Triune nature of God—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We have done so to highlight its imprint upon the social order that He has created. In doing so, however, it is possible that someone may wrongly begin to perceive the persons of the Trinity as separate beings. They are not.

One must never lose sight of the reality that God is One—one in essence and being. He exists in three persons, yet each is fully and wholly God. The Son is fully God, not a separate God. The Holy Spirit is fully God, not a separate being. So God is truly one in essence because each person of the Trinity is one in essence with the other.

But, God is not only one in essence, but He is one in unity. The three persons of the Trinity exist in complete oneness. Each person of the Trinity carries out a unique role and performs unique operations, yet they remain one in essence and one in unity. This is the nature of the eternal God.

All of this is mysterious, yes. But not so mysterious that we cannot comprehend its reality. The “mystical union” that exists within the Triune nature of God has also been impressed upon His creation. I do not understand how the flesh and the spirit within me are joined together. I do not understand how my wife and I have become “one flesh”. I do not understand how the Spirit of God can dwell within me and somehow be united with me. Paul cries out in reference to these matters and calls it a “profound mystery”.

So, when we refer to the Son being in submission to the Father, we are referring to the relationship that exists between the second “person” of the Trinity and the first “person” of the Trinity. When we refer to the Holy Spirit “proceeding” from the Father and the Son, we are referring to the unique operation that the Father and the Son carry out and the implied relationship that exists between the Holy Spirit and the Father and the Son. Yet, we are dealing with one God, one Being, one in essence and unity.

II. Social Order – The Divine Imprint
A. “It is not good” – Genesis 2:18 – Why was it “not good” for man to be alone?
B. Triune structure stamped upon Social Order
1. God – Father, Son, Holy Spirit
2. Family – Husband, Wife, Children
3. Church – Christ, Leaders, Flock
4. Our world – Three realms – Physical, Spiritual and Social
C. Relationships, Roles, Authority, Submission and Unity within social spheres

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